I don't think they got it

[Phat Fingers]

On July 25, 2016 at 10:16 PM, GoBoGo53 said:

I never said to build like the oilers though....I am not advocating for tanking for a decade. All I am saying is that you need elite superstars to win, like Crosby/Malkin/Kane/Toews. I wonder how you get those using this retool strategy because as good as Boeser/Juolevi/Demko are I can't see them becoming Crosby/Malkin/Kane type players.

The players you mentioned Crosby/Malkin/Kane were top picks in their draft year that lived up to their hype. 

 

 

We should be looking at picks outside the top 2 to see simialities. Could we find a Geztlaf, Kopitar, Webber, Subban, Karlson, Kesler type player? All drafted outs side the top 2-3 picks, and all fantastic players in the current era. 

 

Getting the first overall is a crap shoot, no way to control the outcome.  Drafting talent because of effective scouting and developing those players properly is something that can be done methodically and deliberately.  

 

Would Vancouver have been able to tank on propose like Toronto?  Would the media and the NHL would be okay with that?  We would likely get singled out and sanctioned by the NHL and the media would shred the Canucks. 

 

Would rather build up players from our system, develop them in a winning environment and create a pipeline of talent.  

 

 

EW. 

   

[selkirkcraig]

20 hours ago, GoBoGo53 said:

I never said to build like the oilers though....I am not advocating for tanking for a decade. All I am saying is that you need elite superstars to win, like Crosby/Malkin/Kane/Toews. I wonder how you get those using this retool strategy because as good as Boeser/Juolevi/Demko are I can't see them becoming Crosby/Malkin/Kane type players.

i've been an avid follower of not only the canucks, but also the draft, for the last 30 years.  in that time many "can't miss" prospects did in fact "miss."  saying that, i can't recall the canucks ever having so many high end (dare i say, blue chip) prospects.  And that is with Virt./McCann (even though he's gone) and Trym. in the line up.  All of our top 3 prospects could become elite nhl players in time, so let's wait and see.  

 

 

[selkirkcraig]

19 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Luck.. That's how you get them.. Canucks finish with the 3rd worst record and we drop to draft 5th overall.  Hawks finish with the 5th worst record (tied with the 6th worst) and they rise to draft 1st overall.. 

 

I don't know how someone can look at that and say hawks rebuild go off of their high draft picks and say it was a planned success, while the canucks rebuild is a failure.  the only difference between the two is the luck of the draft.  That plus all the other important players that everyone seems to forget about when looking at the success of teams like hawks and kings.  Players like Kopitar (11), Quick (72), Seabrook (14), Keith (54).

 

 

truth.  had the oilers not lucked out with McDavid and then had JP gifted to them, their rebuild might very well be heading in to its second decade with no hope in sight.

[harrytoolips]

On July 22, 2016 at 8:25 PM, GoBoGo53 said:

Boston. One team, one cup.

Chicago 3 cups through tanking, LA 2 cups through tanking, Pittsburgh 2 cups through tanking.

Once again, you can't just tank, you need to do it properly. Those 4 teams you listed have not done it properly. You need to insulate your young players with great veteran players. Those 4 teams have all had terrible management (apart from Florida recently, they look like they are turning it around). Good management+couple of elite players at draft positions 1 and 2 makes it so much easier to win a cup than retooling on the fly. 

Also Detroit in 08'.....and LA isn't a great example, they sucked for a long time and only got lucky with one of their high picks - Doughty..Kopitar was 11th in his draft year, and they don't have any other top 5 picks, correct me if I'm wrong..

[butters]

@OP

 

The eastern media has to sell the Leaf's tank rebuild. Consequently they will praise any canadian team that also does it, and rip on teams that don't. 

[GoBoGo53]

1 hour ago, butters said:

@OP

 

The eastern media has to sell the Leaf's tank rebuild. Consequently they will praise any canadian team that also does it, and rip on teams that don't. 

Media has to sell the Leafs? Are you kidding me? The games are sold out whether they suck or not. Leafs have been garbage for over a decade and they still sell out. They don't need to push any agenda.

[GoBoGo53]

23 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

The players you mentioned Crisby/Malkin/Kane were top picks in their draft year that lived up to their hype. 

 

 

We should be looking at picks outside the top 2 to see simialities. Could we find a Geztlaf, Kopitar, Webber, Subban, Karlson, Kesler type player? All drafted outs side the top 2-3 picks, and all fantastic players in the current era. 

 

Getting the first overall is a crap shoot, no way to control the outcome.  Drafting talent because of effective scouting and developing those players properly is something that can be done methodically and deliberately.  

 

Would Vancouver have been able to tank on propose like Toronto?  Would the media and the NHL would be okay with that?  We would likely get singled out and sanctioned by the NHL and the media would shred the Canucks. 

 

Would rather build up players from our system, develop them in a winning environment and create a pipeline of talent.  

 

 

EW. 

   

Who cares what the media thinks? Toronto/Montreal both operate in the most media crazy markets. One just traded their sacred golden boy and the fanbase/media wants to light the city on fire. In Toronto they just tanked a year and the media shredded the team plenty.

 

Also, every team in the NHL is trying to get those types of players beyond the first round. I can't see how you could possibly bank on something like that happening. 

All I am saying is that it is very difficult to find those type of franchise players, and we just missed one this year because of a couple of points. The difference between Toronto "Tanking" and what we did because of injuries was only a couple points.

[Phat Fingers]

21 hours ago, GoBoGo53 said:

Who cares what the media thinks? Toronto/Montreal both operate in the most media crazy markets. One just traded their sacred golden boy and the fanbase/media wants to light the city on fire. In Toronto they just tanked a year and the media shredded the team plenty.

 

Also, every team in the NHL is trying to get those types of players beyond the first round. I can't see how you could possibly bank on something like that happening. 

All I am saying is that it is very difficult to find those type of franchise players, and we just missed one this year because of a couple of points. The difference between Toronto "Tanking" and what we did because of injuries was only a couple points.

Tanking the way we did still leaves us assets and veterans to shelter and show our young incoming prospects how to play in the NHL.  

 

Getting a top pick to lead us to the promised land is something you cannot bank on. 

 

Drafting players that you can develop into NHL caliber players is possible with good development programs.  Yes, every team wants that, but many either fail at one or the other.  That is why Detriot is so esteemed by many hockey fans.

 

 Detriot banked on its ability to draft unseen talent by other teams and develop those players into legit NHL talent.  JB has drafted 6 players in 3 drafts that will play in the NHL as legit players... In my oppinion. 4 were either late 1st rounders or later. There are other players in the system that might also make it. 

 

Many teams are going to regret not taking Boeser and hopefully Trymakin.  

 

Drafting well consitantly is harder to accomplish than many think.  So, no every team in the NHL is scouting the same way.  That is why I believe JB gives the Canucks an edge that they have lacked for decades.

 

I consider Boeser to be our best prospect, drafted 23rd due to JB's scouting. Trymakin looks likely to be able to play NHL minutes (provided his conditioning is there) as a 3rd pick two years ago. 

 

If the Canucks can develop those two players in a way that allows them to reach their potential, watch out.  

 

Our development program. Has improved leaps and bounds in the last 4 years. It may surprise you that there are still lots of teams that have poor development systems.  Look at how Calgary developed Baer for instance.

 

How many players has Edmonton drafted outside the top half of the first round that made their roster in the past decade?  

 

Its about choosing a path, one that strips your club of any legacy and leaves your young phenoms to fend for themselves. Not a given that you will win it all going that route, or option B.

 

  Hire a guy known for drafting and scouting to lead the club, invest heavily in development and then bring in not one, but two coaches known for developing players into the system and have them on the same page. Keep some key veteran guys around, and compete. 

 

    All I can say, whether you agree or not, is that our prospect pool has advanced light years in the last 3 drafts. We can control how our players are developed thru Utica.  This is new to our org. We have not had this amount of promise since AV coached in Manitoba.  

 

     

 

    

 

[IBatch]

On 7/24/2016 at 3:01 AM, wai_lai416 said:

lol anyone that reaches 100 games is a bonafide nhler? a lot of fringe NHLers have 100 games so does that make them a bonafide NHLer? hell Cody Hogdson have well over 100 games and he's disappeared off the face of the NHL after a couple of good season.. Is Mason Raymond a bonafide NHLer? is Linden Vey a bonafide NHLer? they all have over 100 games by your standard... Virtanen will reach a 100 game even if he continues at the slow pace production wise he has last year just based on potential along.. same with Tryamkin basically will reach 100 games by default just coz they can't send him to utica otherwise he's going back to russia. I'm not saying those players won't be good or great in the NHL.. but it's way too early to call them a bonafide NHLer.. of that list only Demko and Boeser are even in the top 50 current NHL prospect...

 

yes JB is good at finding talents beyond the 10th pick.. so are other gms.. we passed on David Pastrnak for Jared McCann who no longer even with us.. we picked up Virtanen with Ehler still available, others picked up Nylander, Larkin, and even bobby Fabri.. whom so far early in their career looks better than any of our prospect we picked up.. ya sure we picked up a lot of blue chip prospect.. but we also passed up on a bunch of other prospect that's having a far better start to their career than our blue chip prospect.. 

 

let's look at 2014 draft where we picked up Virtanen and McCann.. of all the prospect that played more than 10 games so far in their career.. Virtanen and McCann are bottom 2 and 3 production wise.. so is JB really that great of a scout? that remains to be seen in a few years time.. 

It may seem like the bar is set low, but yes a player that plays 100nhl games is considered a roster player by the experts.  That said it doesn't mean they are good NHLers, or even average.  On that note the average NHLer plays around 5 years in this league and makes 15.5million (gross, so they take home about half of that).  For every Mason Raymond (who is at least average, you don't score 20 goals in this league right now and not be considered a valuable asset) Cody Hodgson (third attempt...likely his last) and Vey there are thousands of fringe players in the  AHL,KHL, ECHL and very good European pro leagues that could, if they got the chance (*ahem see Burrows) work out just as well.  It is no small feet to make it into the NHL, and those that do likely know that they are taking a spot from a veteran, and that a dozen other players from all sorts of pro teams are hoping that they fall on their face and don't produce.  That is why 100 games is considered a success as it regards to the draft.

[Phat Fingers]

^^^^^ Thank IBatch. 

[Blue_Jays_Canucks]

Trades away too many draft picks though. Have we had a second rounder since he took over? 

[Western Red]

On 2016-07-22 at 7:31 PM, Aircool said:

Why do people cite Detroit as anything worthy of celebration... I'll never understand. Such a horrible example.

I know, Ken Holland has no clue what he's doing. What a bunch of uninformed nimrods..

 

DUDE. The Red Wings have made the playoffs 95% of the time since 1990. We should be grateful that many other GM's are too full of pride or too afraid to make mistakes.

 

Benning has the confidence and smarts to exact his plans. I'm happy to be a fan of his.

[butters]

22 hours ago, GoBoGo53 said:

Media has to sell the Leafs? Are you kidding me? The games are sold out whether they suck or not. Leafs have been garbage for over a decade and they still sell out. They don't need to push any agenda.

Your issue is that you stopped reading at the word 'sell'... it has different meanings based on context

[Phat Fingers]

2 hours ago, Blue_Jays_Canucks said:

Trades away too many draft picks though. Have we had a second rounder since he took over? 

It seems like every GM the Canucks have had, all hate second round picks;)  JB did get is Demko in the 2014 2nd round. 

 

This was brought up after the draft and post Guds trade with Benning.  He feels as though the team depth for the 22-25 y/o player/ prospect gap has been addressed. 

 

He traded away his seconds to get players in that range, Vey(oops, looks like we can't let WD scout again) Baer(good so far) and Gudbranson(I love this move). We also flipped Shinkaruk for Granlund (Really hope JB knows what he was doing there). 

 

    He indicated that he would be looking to keep picks moving forward.  He was using them to bolster NHL capable depth. 

   

     JB could really do well in the second round with his picks. Unlike previous GM's.  Previous to Demko, Raymond was our only second rounder of note for over a decade.  

[The Lock]

On 7/27/2016 at 7:09 PM, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

It seems like every GM the Canucks have had, all hate second round picks;)  JB did get is Demko in the 2014 2nd round. 

 

This was brought up after the draft and post Guds trade with Benning.  He feels as though the team depth for the 22-25 y/o player/ prospect gap has been addressed. 

 

He traded away his seconds to get players in that range, Vey(oops, looks like we can't let WD scout again) Baer(good so far) and Gudbranson(I love this move). We also flipped Shinkaruk for Granlund (Really hope JB knows what he was doing there). 

 

    He indicated that he would be looking to keep picks moving forward.  He was using them to bolster NHL capable depth. 

   

     JB could really do well in the second round with his picks. Unlike previous GM's.  Previous to Demko, Raymond was our only second rounder of note for over a decade.  

I don't think it's a matter of "hating" 2nd round picks. Similar to what you said, we were left with an age gap due to Gillis' poor draft choices from 2009-2012. That's a 4 year gap of getting pretty much nothing. This doesn't even include the mediocrity we've had in the draft before than with Nonis.

 

JB has openly stated he's wanted to be able to keep more draft picks, and he likely will with the age gap getting closed. He just had to focus on reshaping the team first.

[Salacious Crumb]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

I don't think it's a matter of "hating" 2nd round picks. Similar to what you said, we were left with an age gap due to Gillis' poor draft choices from 2009-2012. That's a 4 year gap of getting pretty much nothing. This doesn't even include the mediocrity we've had in the draft before than with Nonis.

 

JB has openly stated he's wanted to be able to keep more draft picks, and he likely will with the age gap getting closed. He just had to focus on reshaping the team first.

ftfy

[The Lock]

20 minutes ago, Salacious Crumb said:

ftfy

Lol thanks  I'll edit above. Good catch.

[bleedblue2017]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎22 at 6:29 PM, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

Hello,

 

New guy, first topic. Wonder if Elvis will take me to task?  

 

So I did use the search bar, but might have missed similar topics. But I have to wonder if folks just don't see what JB is doing. 

 

Media types, pessimistic fans and the entire Oilers, Flames and Leafs fan base cannot comprehend that you do not have to tank to improve. 

 

We only have to look at how our drafting and development have changed from the last year of MG's tenure till now.  MG deserves credit for Horvat, Hutton, Tanev and Utica. 

 

We suddenly have players within our system having an impact on the team. Take JB's first draft. Virtannen, McCann, Demko and Trymakin are all going to have NHL careers. How good can be debated, but they will reach more than a 100 games each. 

 

Then ad his top pick in the 2015 draft.  Brock is as blue chip as they come, and we snagged him at 23.  WTF!  Boeser is a guy I wouldn't pass over to take Tkachuk in this draft. That's excellent. Zhuke and Brisebois look to have potential, but they will take at least 3 years. 

 

Now this draft with Juolevi, maybe some others pan out, but including Boeser, Trymakin, Demko, McCann and Virtannen, that's a starting line up in 3 years. 6 bonified NHL players coming up through our system, with 2-3 more potential wild cards. 

 

What should make us excited is that only two of those picks were top ten.  That is key for JB's plan. 

 

Four guys found after after all the marquee players are taken.  That is why JB was hired and why we don't need to tank.  That is why we went out and signed Eriksson.  We can find good players in the second half of the first round and beyond. This allows us to focus on being successful on the ice, because who cares where we draft.  Boeser could be Bennings best pick, and we had a 100 pt season in his draft year.  

 

It appears fairly clear to me what, why and how JB is going about remaking this club. Drafting well every year is the key. Not something Canuck Fans are used too.  

 

 

my two cents. EW. 

Good post, I enjoyed the read. I have to agree with your assessment, JB and TL both said that this team will be in transition for the next few years, which does not bother me at all, I have been waiting for this for the last 3 or 4 years, have pretty much had enough Daniel to Hendrik, Hendrik to Daniel, Daniel to Hendrik, then oh an errand pass and, surprise surprise, two on one back the other way and.............. the opposing team scores. The Sedins have been fun to watch, and they have dazzled us for years with their signature cycle, but other teams have caught on, and the Sedins are near the end of their careers. It is time for Horvat, Baertchi, Virtanen, Granlund, Hutton, Boeser, Cassels, Gaunce, Trymakin, and Demko to take over. It is time for exciting hockey again.

[Dr. Crossbar]

On 27/07/2016 at 7:09 PM, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

It seems like every GM the Canucks have had, all hate second round picks;)  JB did get is Demko in the 2014 2nd round. 

 

This was brought up after the draft and post Guds trade with Benning.  He feels as though the team depth for the 22-25 y/o player/ prospect gap has been addressed. 

 

He traded away his seconds to get players in that range, Vey(oops, looks like we can't let WD scout again) Baer(good so far) and Gudbranson(I love this move). We also flipped Shinkaruk for Granlund (Really hope JB knows what he was doing there). 

 

    He indicated that he would be looking to keep picks moving forward.  He was using them to bolster NHL capable depth. 

   

     JB could really do well in the second round with his picks. Unlike previous GM's.  Previous to Demko, Raymond was our only second rounder of note for over a decade.  

When you look at the second rounders going out, Benning's been bringing in former first rounders who are ready, experienced, and further along ... Baertschi, Sbisa, Etem, Sutter,  Gudbranson ... rather than waiting.

 

He's been using them to bypass the waiting period for development of those seconds so we can be better short term.

 

Both Shinkaruk and McCann were also flipped for stability now. 

 

Basically he's been leveraging assets out of necessity for the now instead of later.

 

 

 

 

[Phat Fingers]

2 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

When you look at the second rounders going out, Benning's been bringing in former first rounders who are ready, experienced, and further along ... Baertschi, Sbisa, Etem, Sutter,  Gudbranson ... rather than waiting.

 

He's been using them to bypass the waiting period for development of those seconds so we can be better short term.

 

Both Shinkaruk and McCann were also flipped for stability now. 

 

Basically he's been leveraging assets out of necessity for the now instead of later.

 

 

 

 

I agree,

 

i thought that is what I said.  The hating comment was in jest. I really don't think Canucks GM's hate second rounders. They just act like it sometimes. 

 

JB is using them to bring talent. Not load up with Eric Wienrich for a fruitless playoff run. Looking at you Dave Nonis.