Canadian Armed Forces Thread

[CBH1926]

3 hours ago, diesel_3 said:

Best way I could sum up Afghanistan was how similar it was to Vietnam (Obviously not climate) but the guerilla tactics they would use. The taliban were smart, they know our rules of engagement and used every possible way to bypass it.

 

Things changed so much from when I was training in 2006 to when I was deployed in 2009, including the ROE's. During soldier qualification we were doing some classroom work, slide shows of IED explosion damages, what a body looks like after said IED explosion, etc. At the time in 2006, the ROE's were almost no holds barred, if somebody looked at you funny you could escalate force (Bit of an exaggeration, but not by much). A high percentage of IED's at the time were being deployed in white toyota corolla's or other small cheap sedans, so somebody had asked "Well, why not just shoot the bomber/vehicle before they detonate?" The MCpl was glad he asked, because the very next slide was a picture of a busy bazaar in some village in the helmand province of Aghanistan, literally everyone in the picture was wearing a white hijab and white burqa and all the vehicles pictured were white toyota corolla's! The MCpl said "How do you know who is bad and who is good?" That's something i'll never forget.

 

I had a very interesting job overseas, I had first hand account of how brutal the taliban could be to 'get around' our ROE's, one time I saw a man standing at the top of a mountain side with binoculars (It's not common to go 'sight seeing' in Afghanistan mid day in 50 degree heat) watching over 2 main roads and a big choke point where there has been a lot of IED activity over the previous months. Every time he would look through his binoculars he would pick up a small child he had with him, because he KNEW we could not fire at that target. Innocent civilians as well as collateral damage were a big deal while I was there, regardless of what people may think or have heard on the news, we had to go through a tonne of red tape to be able to drop bombs or engage. We marked the grid coordinates and our CIED team had found a make shift remote detonation IED nearby where the man would have been watching the road from his vantage point.

 

I get asked all the time about Afghanistan, I have my own personal opinions, I have been called a bunch of names for having deployed there. Most of the people only know what they read on the internet or see on TV. The place was completely messed up and corrupt. I am so glad I made it home in one piece, even though better men and women than me did not return home to their families alive.

In response to your last paragraph, the only people that understand war are the ones that were "participants"

[diesel_3]

15 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

In response to your last paragraph, the only people that understand war are the ones that were "participants"

Absolutely, but you will get people who share their opinion and think they know more because CNN told them.

You get used to it after a while, if people ask me specific questions, i'll usually answer...but if somebody tries to challenge how I personally feel about it and goad me in to confrontation, I just walk away or say that's not a conversation i'd like to get in to.

[CBH1926]

23 hours ago, diesel_3 said:

Absolutely, but you will get people who share their opinion and think they know more because CNN told them.

You get used to it after a while, if people ask me specific questions, i'll usually answer...but if somebody tries to challenge how I personally feel about it and goad me in to confrontation, I just walk away or say that's not a conversation i'd like to get in to.

That is the best solution, why get aggravated for no reason, like they say "you can't fix the stupid"

Now I understand why my grandparents never really talked about WW2.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by CBH1926

[Gurn]

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/new-canadian-warship-project-off-to-rocky-start-as-bidders-fail-to-meet-some-requirements

 

"

Procurement officials are now trying to regroup on the $60-billion project and figure out ways that bidders might be able to change their proposals to make them acceptable, a number of defence industry executives pointed out.

The problems centre around technical issues. Some are minor but in other cases there is a view among defence industry officials that Canada is asking for too much in some areas such as radar, which may be causing problems with meeting requirements.

Public Services and Procurement Canada spokeswoman Michèle LaRose said the bids received for the Canadian Surface Combatant project have not been disqualified. Three bids have been received. The federal government and Irving Shipbuilding are still evaluating the proposals, she added. LaRose pointed out that the evaluation is at the second stage in the process.

Government officials say that involves what is known as “the cure process” in which bidders will be given details of how their proposals have failed to meet the stated criteria. They will then be given only one opportunity to fix issues with their bids.

If they are still considered “non-compliant” after the cure period they “will be eliminated from the competition,” according to the federal government."

---------

"

he final cost of the ships is still unknown. In 2008 the government estimated the total cost of the project to be about $26 billion.

But in 2015 navy commander Vice Admiral Mark Norman voiced concern that taxpayers may not have been given all relevant information, and publicly predicted the cost for the ships alone would be around $30 billion.

Cost estimates for the project are now between $55 billion and $60 billion.

About half of the cost is for systems and equipment that will go on the 15 ships, according to federal documents obtained by Postmedia through the Access to Information law. “Approximately one-half of the CSC build cost is comprised of labour in the (Irving’s) Halifax yard and materials,” the documents added.

Last year, Jean-Denis Fréchette, the parliamentary budget officer, estimated the CSC program would cost $61.82 billion. He also warned that every year the awarding of the contract is delayed beyond 2018, taxpayers will spend an extra $3 billion because of inflation."

 

I'll have retired before a ship gets in the water.

[CBH1926]

Canada used to have one of the best naval forces in WW2 and after.

Key word being used to.

[Ryan Strome]

22 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Canada used to have one of the best naval forces in WW2 and after.

Key word being used to.

And air force. But now so many people in Canada can't be bothered with a strong military. They think it's a waste of money. So sad.

 

 

[SabreFan1]

Come on Canada, get your sh*t together!  Your navy is nearly non-existent and you're letting defence contractors there screw you just like defence contractors here screw the US.  The longer the government lets things drag on, the more expensive things become. 

[Ryan Strome]

10 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Come on Canada, get your sh*t together!  Your navy is nearly non-existent and you're letting defence contractors there screw you just like defence contractors here screw the US.  The longer the government lets things drag on, the more expensive things become. 

Hence why it's 60 billion now. And they said any delays moving forward could cost a extra couple billion.

[SabreFan1]

6 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Hence why it's 60 billion now. And they said any delays moving forward could cost a extra couple billion.

If they go by the regular defence contractor playbook, it will go higher sooner than you think for whatever BS reason(s) that they can come up with.

[Ryan Strome]

Not sure if people are aware of this story. It's a few months old but an interesting read. The Fremm is one of the world's best frigates. This offer has been rejected by the Canadian government.

 

 

Exclusive: Consortium offers Canada a deal on a new fleet of frigates that could save $32 billion

 

OTTAWA — In a surprise twist in Canada’s shipbuilding saga, a foreign consortium is offering the country a way to build a fleet of warships at a guaranteed price of $30 billion — a potential savings of $32 billion.

Fincantieri of Italy and Naval Group of France — major forces in international shipbuilding — don’t believe the current $62-billion Canadian Surface Combatant program, already beset with delays and increasing costs, will be successful, industry sources told Postmedia.

Instead, the French and Italian governments have proposed that Canada’s chosen contractor, Halifax-based Irving Shipbuilding, build 15 ships based on the consortium’s FREMM frigate design, which is proven and is in operation with the French and Italian navies. They are offering to guarantee the cost of the ships at a fixed $30 billion.

The deal would use Canadian technology on board the ships, sources said, and include the transfer of technology to Canadian firms so they could be involved in future sales of FREMM vessels on the international market.

As well as the French and Italian navies, Morocco and Egypt operate FREMM ships. Australia is considering them for its new naval fleet, and they are seen as a serious contender in the competition to outfit the U.S. Navy with modern frigates.

 

Bids for the Surface Combatant programwere to have been submitted by Thursday to Irving. The company has not responded to a request for comment, and it is not known how receptive it would be to the consortium’s proposal.

The Fincantieri-Naval Group gambit is risky, as federal bureaucrats are expected to oppose it. But the potential of $32 billion in savings for Canadian taxpayers will put pressure on the Liberal government to seriously consider the offer.

Defence industry insiders said the Fincantieri-Naval Group consortium thinks it has nothing to lose by trying to circumvent the CSC procurement process, which a number of observers believe is skewed to favour a bid by Lockheed Martin Canada and the British firm BAE. They would provide Canada the Type 26 frigate that BAE is building for the Royal Navy.

Industry sources pointed out that Canada had originally asked for proven ship designs, then at the last minute loosened that restriction to allow the Lockheed-BAE bid to qualify, since the Type 26 was at the time still on the drawing board. (Construction on the Type 26 frigate began in the summer, but the first ship for the Royal Navy is not yet completed.)

Both Irving and Public Services and Procurement Canada have denied any favoritism towards BAE.

Another team, led by Alion Canada, is offering the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën Air Defence and Command frigate. Though no other bids have yet been reported, a number of other companies were expected to put their ships in the running for the CSC program.

 

Fincantieri, the fourth-largest shipyard in the world, has long warned the Liberal government it believes the CSC procurement process is flawed. On Oct. 24, 2016, the firm sent then-Public Services and Procurement Minister Judy Foote a detailed outline of why it thought the acquisition process was in trouble, warning that “Canada is exposed to unnecessary cost uncertainty.”

At the time, the company proposed to Foote that a fixed-price competition be held, with the winning shipyard building the first three warships complete with Canadian systems and delivering them to Irving. The ships would have then be evaluated and, after any technical issues were worked out, Irving would have begun to build the remaining 12 vessels. That would allow work on the new ships to get underway faster, the vessels to be fully tested and the risk to the Canadian taxpayer significantly reduced, Fincantieri argued.

Foote dismissed the company’s recommendation. However, the cost of the CSC program has steadily increased. Originally set at $26 billion, the Department of National Defence later estimated the price tag at $40 billion. Then in June, Parliamentary Budget Officer Jean-Denis Fréchette estimated the CSC program would cost $61.82 billion — and warned that because of inflation, every year beyond 2018 the awarding of the contract is delayed would cost taxpayers an extra $3 billion.

There are also concerns that plans to build two supply ships for the Royal Canadian Navy and a new Polar-class icebreaker for the Canadian Coast Guard are in trouble.

The Liberals have said they can’t provide Parliament with a schedule for the delivery of the supply ships or the icebreaker because they deem such information secret.

Public Services and Procurement Canada would not comment on the reasoning behind that claim.

 

http://nationalpost.com/news/french-italian-consortium-offers-canada-a-deal-on-a-new-fleet-of-frigates-that-could-save-32-billion

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Ryan Strome

[SabreFan1]

You recently had a $440 million warship stuck in Montreal that could have conveniently "gotten lost".

[Ryan Strome]

3 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

You recently had a $440 million warship stuck in Montreal that could have conveniently "gotten lost".

I think that ship recently headed south. I still prefer if we had of said finders keepers.

[CBH1926]

1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said:

And air force. But now so many people in Canada can't be bothered with a strong military. They think it's a waste of money. So sad.

 

 

Yeah, why not get some second hand junk planes, I mean who needs a new ones.

[Rob_Zepp]

 

[Ryan Strome]

6 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

Yeah, why not get some second hand junk planes, I mean who needs a new ones.

don't get me started on jets. What a waste of money, why not just pick a jet or immediately jumped to a competition. BAE or Lockheed Martin would jump at the bit to supply the jets asap. The U.S still flies classic hornets as they're a good jet but outdated. Obviously U.S hornets are supplemented with much newer and advanced jets where the Canadian fleet isn't. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Ryan Strome

[CBH1926]

14 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

don't get me started on jets. What a waste of money, why not just pick a jet or immediately jumped to a competition. BAE or Lockheed Martin would jump at the bit to supply the jets asap. The U.S still flies classic hornets as they're a good jet but outdated. Obviously U.S hornets are supplemented with much newer and advanced jets where the Canadian fleet isn't. 

OC talking about the options.

 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/update-on-new-fighter-jet-project-to-replace-cf-18-fleet

[Ryan Strome]

4 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

OC talking about the options.

 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/update-on-new-fighter-jet-project-to-replace-cf-18-fleet

I read that piece. I'm actually now kinda supporting purchasing Euro fighters and buying some growlers off Boeing. Likely within 10 years stealth will be obsolete and we will have f35s that are slow and not air superiority jets.

[Ryan Strome]

I'm really liking the Dutch ship. Highly advanced.

 

Dutch frigate design being offered by Alion for Canadian Surface Combatant program

Alion Canada is leading a bid for the Canadian Surface Combatant that will involve a host of companies and a Dutch frigate design.

Alion Canada, whose mother firm is a major U.S. player in the defence market, has about 100 engineers, naval architects and designers in Canada. Alion staff are already involved in Joint Support Ship (JSS) and Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel (OFSV) projects.

Alion was the prime design agent for the U.S. Navy’s DDG-51 Arleigh Burke class destroyers and C-47 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruiser in the US Navy. The firm also manages the maintenance schedule and activities for a fleet of 165 ships in service.

 

Alion Canada has already successfully exported a ship design for the Australian MV Investigator ship which was designed in Canada, built in Singapore and delivered to Australia, according to the firm.

For the baseline for the Canadian Surface Combatant, Alion has selected the Dutch De Zeven Provinciën Air Defence and Command (LCF) frigate, Chief Operating Officer Bruce Samuelsen, told Esprit de Corps magazine.

The firm believes that platform meets all of the mandatory selection criteria without modification. The LCF is a proven, operational in-service warship, proving a vessel that is a very robust starting point for Canada’s needs, company officials point out.

In addition, it could be brought into production very quickly.

Alion noted it is critical that the integration of key capabilities – the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) multimode radar; the missile launch system and surface-to-air missiles (SAM); and the combat management system – be proven, certified and in-service to reduce program risk. Through its partnership with Damen Shipbuilding, Atlas Electronik, and Hendsoldt, it believes its submission for the CSC fits that bill.

 

 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/dutch-frigate-design-being-offered-by-alion-for-canadian-surface-combatant-program/amp

 

De Zeven Provinciën-class frigates are highly advanced air-defence and command frigates in service with the Royal Navy of the Netherlands (Koninklijke Marine). This class of ships is also known as LCF(Luchtverdedigings- en commandofregat, air defense and command frigate). The ships are similar to the German Sachsen-class frigatesin role and mission. During international exercises performance of the sensor suite and weapons platform have been proven to be exceptional and "best in class".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinciën-class_frigate

 

 

[Ryan Strome]

Latest on the type 26.

 

Type 26 frigate - contender for Canadian warship program - won’t be operational until 2027

One of the top contenders in Canada’s new frigate program – a ship now being built for the United Kingdom – won’t be operational for the Royal Navy until 2027.

 

 

BAE’s Type 26 frigate has been ordered by the United Kingdom and the cutting of steel started last year.

But the United Kingdom’s defence procurement minister Guto Bebb has told parliamentarians that the first of those frigates won’t be delivered until 2025. Because of testing it won’t become operational until 2027, the minister added.

The Type 26 design has been submitted to Canada for its Canadian Surface Combatant program and is one of three contenders. Construction on the Canadian frigate program to start in the early 2020s.

That raises the possibility, say industry insiders, that Canada could be the first nation to acquire the Type 26 and put it to sea.

Being the first to deploy a new class of warships, however, comes with associated issues of working through the initial problems of new vessels.

 

That, however, is what the Canadian government had hoped to avoid with its CSC program. It originally stated that only mature ships or proven designs would be considered.

But the Liberal government inexplicably retreated on that stipulation and allowed the Type 26 design to be entered even though the vessel had not been built yet.

That, in turn, sparked a belief in some quarters of industry that the fix is in for BAE’s Type 26. The federal government has denied that.

Lockheed Martin Canada is leading the consortium that has proposed the Type 26. A company spokesperson said the progress of the British program will not have an impact on CSC.

“Our CSC bid meets or exceeds all requirements and this does not impact our bid in any manner,” the spokesperson noted in an email to Defence Watch. “Our CSC bid does not rely upon the T26 becoming operational before 2027.”

 

Some industry officials have also suggested that the 2027 date won’t be an issue because they expect the CSC to fall significantly schedule. By the time CSC gets really underway, the Type 26 will be ready.

The Canadian Surface Combatant program will cost between $55 billion and $60 billion. Fifteen ships will be eventually built. Three consortiums have bid on the program.

 

A contract for the CSC is expected to be awarded by the end of this year, said Pat Finn, assistant deputy minister for materiel at the Department of National Defence.

About half of the cost of the surface combatant price-tag is for systems and equipment that will go on the 15 ships, according to federal documents obtained by Postmedia through the Access the Information law. “Approximately one-half of the CSC build cost is comprised of labour in the (Irving’s) Halifax yard and materials,” the documents added.

Last year, Jean-Denis Fréchette, the Parliamentary Budget Officer, estimated the CSC program

would cost $61.82 billion. He also warned that every year the awarding of the contract is delayed beyond 2018, taxpayers will spend an extra $3 billion because of inflation.

 

 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/type-26-frigate-contender-for-canadian-warship-program-wont-be-operational-until-2027

[Ryan Strome]

$54M to F-35 fighter jet project, bringing cost to $500M over 2 decades

https://globalnews.ca/news/4243206/canada-f-35-fighter-jet-54-million/

 

Canada invests another $54-million into development of F-35 stealth fighter

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-canada-invests-another-54-million-into-development-of-f-35-stealth/

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Ryan Strome