Mass Shooting At Pittsburgh Synagogue

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes, it is. They're using guns, that implicitly makes it a gun issue. 

 

If we ban (or say restrict their use to a gun range for hobbyists e.g.) AR-15s and people have a new favourite semi-auto, then we ban that too. I know from your posts you are very likely a responsible gun owner, which is great, but its just a hobby. Its not worth lives. The sheer number and types of guns and magazines available in the US has reached insane levels, it has to be clawed back one type at time. 

Maybe the US is past the point of no return?  They glorify war, and (pretty much) gun play.  They are a divided nation.  

[JM_]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Maybe the US is past the point of no return?  They glorify war, and (pretty much) gun play.  They are a divided nation.  

I don't believe that Alf, people can change. Its going to take something extreme tho, which is why I was suggesting using the real images from school shootings. The religious right likes to use ripped up fetuses on billboards, so why not use a similar tactic? Its horrible I know, but without something extreme I don't see how people can be shaken loose from the view that guns are not the problem. Of course many won't be, but some will be. 

[Ilunga]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

me 

Reading history illustrates our species ability to continue to make the same mistakes.

 

We seem to be accelerating the time between making those same mistakes.

In a time where we have information literally at our fingertips, the level of ingnorance is extraordinary.

[RUPERTKBD]

The anti-Semetic train seems to be building up steam....

 

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/broad-city-star-ilana-glazers-political-event-canceled-after-vandals-write-kill-all-jews-inside-synagogue

 

Quote

 

A political event hosted by “Broad City” star Ilana Glazer at a historic Brooklyn synagogue was canceled Thursday when a vandal scrawled “Kill all Jews” inside.

The NYPD said “anti-Semitic messages” were discovered on the stairwell of Union Temple in Brooklyn Heights at around 8 p.m. Thursday.

At about 8:30, Glazer came out of the venue to tell the crowds that the 8 p.m. event, where she was scheduled to interview journalist Amy Goodman and New York state senate candidates Andrew Gounardes and Jim Gaughran was canceled because of the graffiti.

“She didn’t feel comfortable ushering 200 people into the enclosed space; potential sitting ducks,” an attendee named Kathryn Gonzalez posted on Facebook.

A custodian told The Post hateful slurs were found on the second and fifth floor and that the anti-Semitic vandal had scrawled “Kill all Jews” on a door.

 

The question is, how will Trump attempt to blame this latest act of racism on the "Fake news!", Liberal media?

[Kragar]

15 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

horses are fun and do make some sense in a city... but thats another topic. 

 

I know if you don't have an AR-15 you can't kill a classroom full of kids or a room full of people at prayer with one. I think that qualifies as effective. 

Are you kidding me?  Do you really believe this, or are you just being obtuse?  It's like I am debating with a teenage evangelist here.  No facts, faulty logic, but man you just gotta believe!!!

 

Are AR-15s the only gun used in mass shootings?  Nope, we've covered that.

 

Do you even know what the worst killing involving a school or church was down here?

[ForsbergTheGreat]

 

15 hours ago, Kragar said:

Now, I really am done.  Time for one of the high points of my week... I get to go build something (hopefully) beautiful.

I’m actually surprised you put this much effort in trying to explain things to anti-gun left.  It’s extremely hard to have any sort of discussion with some people as they are so misinformed and lack any sort of knowledge regarding firearms.  They are so bought into the information (that they keep parroting) from other uninformed sources, that they ignore quality information and stats from people who are actively involved and have insight into the firearm industry. 

 

The sad part is that there is common ground that could be found, but rather than having an honest intellectual debate, they’d rather just point and yell.  They don’t care that the 90% terminology they use is wrong and makes them look like uneducated fools.  I’ve gotten to the point believing that they aren’t actually interested in finding a middle ground, they aren’t interested in learning and working together to come up with a solution.  Instead they turned it into to a I’m right your wrong, if you don’t agree with me (insert insult).  It’s now become a full on two sided war, when it should have been a cooperative compromise focused improving the safety of all. 

[JM_]

41 minutes ago, Kragar said:

Are you kidding me?  Do you really believe this, or are you just being obtuse?  It's like I am debating with a teenage evangelist here.  No facts, faulty logic, but man you just gotta believe!!!

 

Are AR-15s the only gun used in mass shootings?  Nope, we've covered that.

 

Do you even know what the worst killing involving a school or church was down here?

keep telling yourself that guns aren't the problem, even though... what was used again... oh right, guns. 

[Kragar]

15 hours ago, Ilunga said:

You cannot really use our murder rate as an example.

Apart from the Port Arthur massacre that triggered the clampdown on automatic weapons our society does not and never has had nutbags that want to grab a gun and indiscrimately  go and kill people they do not know, might hate/dislike because of the race, gender or sexual orientation.

Aussie are motivated to murder each other because of a domestic argument,other argument,revenge,alcohol related argument,money /drugs and in a minority of cases no apparent motive.

It is in Americans DNA, their love of guns and shooting the frack out of anyone and anything in front of them.

Check out the figures for death by "friendly fire" in the wars you participate in.

I didn't bring up your country's murder rate.  Many people who are heavy into gun control here use Aus as a shining example of successful gun control.  I was just debating how effective it would be here.  

 

There are about 15 million ARs in the hands of American citizens.  If ARs were prominently and consistently being used to do these killings, on a regular basis, I might agree with you and Jimmy.  However, as I have stated a few times here... the problem is deeper.

 

The majority of deaths involving guns are suicides.  Next up, homicides involving handguns, a large number of which are gang-related.

 

The US leads the world in anti-depressant use.  The US leads the world in drug abuse.  Our schools (K-12) are in general quite mediocre compared to the rest of the developed world.  How concerning are the racial tensions between white and black, and the wealth gap?

 

With over 100 million gun owners, the gun death rate should be much, much higher if DNA was the reason.  When Aus' homicide rates were dropping in the new millennium, it was noticeably dropping here too (actually, we started about 5 years earlier).  There were more guns in citizens' hands then than in the decade before, so what made the difference?  Perhaps an improving economy/declining unemployment from the 80's?  perhaps reduced drug use?  It sure wasn't less guns.

 

Take a look at all the mass shooters lately.  How many of them had shown signs of depression or despair? 

 

Or this clown in Pittsburgh, where it is by all appearances a hate crime.  With hate that deep, would the lack of a semi-auto rifle keep him from doing something equally horrible to show the world his hate?  I sincerely doubt it.

[Kragar]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

keep telling yourself that guns aren't the problem, even though... what was used again... oh right, guns. 

I thought you were looking to ban AR-15s.  I guess the goalposts are moving again.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

I thought you were looking to ban AR-15s.  I guess the goalposts are moving again.

I'm looking to ban or severely restrict all automatic weapons. 

 

But yeah, you're so correct. I mean when that guy was killing all those people in Vegas guns weren't the problem. How silly of me. 

 

[Kragar]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I'm looking to ban or severely restrict all automatic weapons. 

 

But yeah, you're so correct. I mean when that guy was killing all those people in Vegas guns weren't the problem. How silly of me. 

 

The AR-15 is not an automatic weapon. 

 

Automatic weapons are illegal here.  If you want to talk about bump stocks, that's a different story, and one I can likely agree with you.

[Toews]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

I didn't bring up your country's murder rate.  Many people who are heavy into gun control here use Aus as a shining example of successful gun control.  I was just debating how effective it would be here.  

 

There are about 15 million ARs in the hands of American citizens.  If ARs were prominently and consistently being used to do these killings, on a regular basis, I might agree with you and Jimmy.  However, as I have stated a few times here... the problem is deeper.

 

The majority of deaths involving guns are suicides.  Next up, homicides involving handguns, a large number of which are gang-related.

 

The US leads the world in anti-depressant use.  The US leads the world in drug abuse.  Our schools (K-12) are in general quite mediocre compared to the rest of the developed world.  How concerning are the racial tensions between white and black, and the wealth gap?

 

With over 100 million gun owners, the gun death rate should be much, much higher if DNA was the reason.  When Aus' homicide rates were dropping in the new millennium, it was noticeably dropping here too (actually, we started about 5 years earlier).  There were more guns in citizens' hands then than in the decade before, so what made the difference?  Perhaps an improving economy/declining unemployment from the 80's?  perhaps reduced drug use?  It sure wasn't less guns.

 

Take a look at all the mass shooters lately.  How many of them had shown signs of depression or despair? 

 

Or this clown in Pittsburgh, where it is by all appearances a hate crime.  With hate that deep, would the lack of a semi-auto rifle keep him from doing something equally horrible to show the world his hate?  I sincerely doubt it.

To put it simply, yes. The Vegas shooter was able to do what he did because he had the means and the opportunity. I am pretty sure he could not take out 50+ people with a handgun. 

 

PS: I am assuming by "equally horrible" you mean the number of casualities.

[Kragar]

1 minute ago, Toews said:

To put it simply, yes. The Vegas shooter was able to do what he did because he had the means and the opportunity. I am pretty sure he could not take out 50+ people with a handgun. 

 

PS: I am assuming by "equally horrible" you mean the number of casualities.

I was referring to Pittsburgh, where the situation (and motivation for that matter) were quite different.  Were he to go inside the synagogue with a couple semi-auto handguns instead, killing a dozen people is not too hard to comprehend.  When the shooter is inside the building (Pittsburgh, Sandy Hook, Parkland, Aurora, etc.), handguns can be equally capable, if not more effective given the faster time to choose another target.  "clocktower" situations like Vegas, of course the long gun will be more effective, as the gun is more powerful and choosing the next target is simpler.

 

I have no issue banning bump stocks.  Take that away from Paddock, and the severity of his insanity is much lower, especially on the injury side.

 

And on the subject of Paddock... mixing alcohol with anti-depressants.  Diagnosed depressed since 2015.  Hemorrhaging money.  Could these perhaps have played a part in his decisions?

[Lionized27]

13 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

keep telling yourself that guns aren't the problem, even though... what was used again... oh right, guns. 

By that logic, what about North York in April?

Oh right, a van.

 

It's not the tool, it's who wields it.

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Lionized27 said:

By that logic, what about North York in April?

Oh right, a van.

 

It's not the tool, it's who wields it.

uh huh. So he does that on a Vespa? 

[Lionized27]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

uh huh. So he does that on a Vespa? 

It's. Not. The. Tool.

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Lionized27 said:

It's. Not. The. Tool.

If someone points a gun at you some day with the intent to kill you, I bet you'l wish he's holding a tuna fish sandwich. It. Is. About. The. Tool.

 

go enjoy the PGT ffs, tonight was magic. 

[RUPERTKBD]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/police-search-for-motive-in-florida-yoga-studio-slayings/ar-BBPi8aU?li=AAggNb9

Quote

 

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Two people were shot to death and five others wounded at a yoga studio in Florida's capital by a gunman who then killed himself, authorities said.

The two slain Friday included a student and faculty member at Florida State University, according to university officials.

Tallahassee Police Chief Michael DeLeo told reporters Friday night that the man shot six people and pistol-whipped another after walking into the studio, which is part of a small Tallahassee shopping centre.

The suspect then fatally shot himself, DeLeo said.

 

I guess he couldn't get his van inside the Yoga studio....

[Ilunga]

On 03/11/2018 at 3:39 AM, Kragar said:

I didn't bring up your country's murder rate.  Many people who are heavy into gun control here use Aus as a shining example of successful gun control.  I was just debating how effective it would be here.  

 

There are about 15 million ARs in the hands of American citizens.  If ARs were prominently and consistently being used to do these killings, on a regular basis, I might agree with you and Jimmy.  However, as I have stated a few times here... the problem is deeper.

 

The majority of deaths involving guns are suicides.  Next up, homicides involving handguns, a large number of which are gang-related.

 

The US leads the world in anti-depressant use.  The US leads the world in drug abuse.  Our schools (K-12) are in general quite mediocre compared to the rest of the developed world.  How concerning are the racial tensions between white and black, and the wealth gap?

 

With over 100 million gun owners, the gun death rate should be much, much higher if DNA was the reason.  When Aus' homicide rates were dropping in the new millennium, it was noticeably dropping here too (actually, we started about 5 years earlier).  There were more guns in citizens' hands then than in the decade before, so what made the difference?  Perhaps an improving economy/declining unemployment from the 80's?  perhaps reduced drug use?  It sure wasn't less guns.

 

Take a look at all the mass shooters lately.  How many of them had shown signs of depression or despair? 

 

Or this clown in Pittsburgh, where it is by all appearances a hate crime.  With hate that deep, would the lack of a semi-auto rifle keep him from doing something equally horrible to show the world his hate?  I sincerely doubt it.

I agree with a lot of what you say but to me it comes down to causal proximity.

Take for example suicide, several articles I have read stated that those who committed/attempted suicide were more likely to have a gun in the home,in some studies twice as likely.

 

Just going in what I observe Americans love of guns and how they are used/portrayed in movies,TV series is unmatched in other western countries.

 

As I stated the stats for deaths by friendly fire are staggering.

21 percent in WW2, 39 percent in Vietnam, 52 percent in the first gulf war.

 

[RUPERTKBD]

And the causal proximity problem strikes again:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/man-tells-police-11-year-old-grandson-killed-grandmother-then-himself/ar-BBPm3si?li=AAggFp5&ocid=wispr

Quote

 

An 11-year-old boy shot and killed his grandmother before turning the gun on himself Saturday, the boy's grandfather told police in Arizona.

The Litchfield Park man told detectives that he and his 65-year-old wife "asked their grandson to clean his room and pick up after himself throughout the day, as he was being stubborn about it," Maricopa County Sheriff's Office spokesman Joaquin Enriquez said in a statement Sunday.

The couple then sat down on their living room couch to watch television, the grandfather told investigators.

"While doing so, the grandson came up behind them and shot (the grandmother) in the back of the head, with a handgun which belonged to the grandfather," Enriquez said.

The man told police that he ran after his grandson, but then returned to help his wife. He told detectives he heard another gunshot seconds later and saw his grandson take a few steps before collapsing from a self-inflicted wound.

The grandfather told sheriff's office investigators that he retrieved his gun and then called 911.

He told detectives that he and his wife had full custody of their grandson, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office said.

 

This is the kind of thing that happens too frequently with this misguided idea that having a gun lying around makes a home safe.