The Colt 45s Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Our problem the next couple of seasons is going to be the salary cap. We can talk about how we need to trade RL to save some money under the cap, or realize that we are going to have to pay more money for CS in the future. The fact is the CBA hurts the Canucks right now, and there is no easy solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 No, it's not. The message of mine you specifically quoted was about Luo's standing in the history books, not about him and Cory. If you're going to reply to messages, maybe actually read them first. Furthermore, your reply didn't even mention Cory. You simply said that Luo's stats didn't "measure up." I proved that they do in fact still hold within the larger context of the league. He's still a good goalie. That fact does not take away from Cory in any way. Get that through your head! Both have worth. Both have value. And both will likely give their team a chance to win most games they play, which is all you can ask from a goalie. But, both have upsides and downsides. It's not a matter of declaring one "good" and saying the other "sucks," it's simply a matter of deciding which of their upsides and downsides you think is better for your team. Luo has years of experience and is thoroughly proven reliable. He is likely never going to be the top goalie in the league, but chances are good he's going to be in the top 20 year after year, and more often than not in the top 10. That kind of consistency lets teams build around him because they know within a relatively small range what they can expect from him. Cory, on the other hand, has very little experience and is not proven to be anything yet. He has shown a potential for being the top goalie in the league in any given year, or at least being darn close. But, he's also shown a potential for inconsistency. That could make it more difficult for a team to know what to expect from him not only from season to season but also from the regular season to the playoffs. (People like to point out that he has regular season and playoff numbers higher than Luo, but want to ignore that he has regular season and playoff numbers lower than Luo as well.) If you think Cory is the better choice, fine. But why do you think that has to mean Luo sucks? If Cory is good (which he has been), he's good regardless of how Luo did. If Luo sucks (which he does not), he sucks regardless of how Cory did. If you are only comparing these two goalies and saying Luo "sucks" only because he's not been as good as Cory in the last 2 years, then Cory's not really "good" either. He just doesn't suck in comparison to Luo. Again, there is NOT a finite amount of good to go around. Cory and Luo are not codependent parts of the same whole. It's entirely possible for them both to be good goalies independent of one another and in a way that does not in any way diminish the other. So make your case for one of them if you want, but it should be because you think he's the best choice for this team, not just that he sucks less than the other option. That is not a compliment to either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm really not sure what your talking about? There was nothing off base with the story and your just babbling, probably without reading the article you responding to because you your random typing has no relevance? Tell us again why Lou should be our starter? Just you you know it ain't happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Huh? The post you quoted was part of a larger conversation I was having with someone else in this thread. I have no idea what article you're talking about or why my post should have any relevance to it. And speaking of replying to something without reading it....I can see a valid argument for keeping Luo, but I never actually said Luo should be our starter, only that he is a good goalie who does not suck as so many want to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonz Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Haha miles ahead? Naaah I haven't written him off, I just don't want him to become the next Steve Mason, because then we're screwed, unless Lack is like the next Bobrovsky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoasting Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Sorry I didn't follow the compleat conversation I guess? 99% of the people who want Lou out don't think that he sucks, just that he is not one of the best goalies ever and that he is not worth his contract. His days in Vancouver are done because of his meltdowns and that has nothing to do with his capacity as a goalie on most nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucklehead420 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 The best season of Luongo's career he put up .931 sv% and 2.43 GAA. Schneider has already beaten that mark with .937 sv% and 1.96 GAA. Luongo's best playoff performance ever he got .941 sv% and 1.77 GAA. Schneider has beaten that mark again with .960 sv% and 1.31 GAA. Luongo's best perform.ances of his entire career (in the distant past) have already fallen in Schneid's first 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Sorry I didn't follow the compleat conversation I guess? 99% of the people who want Lou out don't think that he sucks, just that he is not one of the best goalies ever and that he is not worth his contract. His days in Vancouver are done because of his meltdowns and that has nothing to do with his capacity as a goalie on most nights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonz Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 And since the end of last season, even Lui knows this and wants a trade to somewhere closer to home and where he can be a starter. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoasting Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Lol "DownundaCanucks" and "Apollo" are going to move to the city that Lu ends up playing in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Luo actually is among the best goalies in many regards, and I pointed out his career stats compared to other goalies who've played a similar number of games in previous posts as proof. As I've also pointed out previously, Luo's stats have been in the top 20 in 11 of his 13 years in the NHL and in the top 10 for 8 of those years. (He was 12th among SV% leaders just last year.) Those are elite numbers, whether people want to admit it or not. Yes, Luo has meltdowns, no question. But, I don't think it's significantly more than other goalies. And unless someone wants to crunch the numbers for all goalies to prove that he does, it's nothing more than speculation to say he does. People tend to remember his meltdowns and put more weight to them than they do his good games. For example, many people think he's had more 6+ goals against games than shutouts in the playoffs, but the exact opposite is actually true. It may not feel true because we remember the bad games more easily, but it is still true. People want to compare Luo to Cory, but only with the things that make Cory look like he'll be so much better and not subject to all of those pesky "not perfect" moments they hate about Luo. It's just not reality. Cory is good all on his own. He also happens to have better stats than Luo over the last two years, but he too has already shown a similar capacity for meltdowns. For example, this year Luo let in 3+ goals in 7 games (or 39% of his 18 starts), and 4+ goals in 4 games (or 22% of his starts.) Remember, Luo was never pulled and was forced to complete every game he started even when struggling. He also went in in replacement of Cory twice, playing 33:23 and 57:33 of those games respectively. Given that he played at least half of each of those games, if we add those 2 games to his number of starts (for a total of 20 games), his stats drop to 35% for 3+ goals a game and 20% for 4+ goals a game. Also this year, Cory let in 3+ goals in 10 games (or 33% of his 30 starts), and he let in 4+ goals in 6 games (or 20%). And since Cory was also pulled from the Edmonton game after he let in 2 goals on 2 shots, that game isn't even included in his "meltdown" stats. If he had stayed in that game and allowed even one more goal, his 3+ goal games stat would jump to 37% of starts. Last year, Luo let in 3 or more goals in 25 games (or 46% of his 54 starts), and allowed 4+ goals in 10 games (or 19% of his starts). Cory let in 3 or more in 8 games (or 29% of his 28 starts) and allowed 4+ goals in 4 games (or 14% of his starts). Twice, Cory played more than half the game in relief of Luo, so if we add those to his starts, his stats drop to 27% for 3+ goals and 13% for 4+ goals. Given that last year was Cory's best career year to date (and that he actually had more starts last year that this year due to the shortened season), it's pretty clear that even at his best he is not free of "meltdowns" and is in fact not significantly better than supposedly "leaky" Luo. Expecting that a goalie won't have off nights is simply setting yourself up for disappointment. They're human, they have bad days. It doesn't make them bad goalies. The problem is people here tend to have tunnel vision. A player is either good or sucks and that is determined within whatever limited lens fans feel like using rather than the greater, and more accurate, lens of the entire NHL. Right now, Luo is being compared to only Cory without regard for the impressive level of consistency he has had throughout his career or for where he stands in relation to the rest of the league, to similarly paid goalies, or to goalies with similar career lengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Luo actually is among the best goalies in many regards, and I pointed out his career stats compared to other goalies who've played a similar number of games in previous posts as proof. As I've also pointed out previously, Luo's stats have been in the top 20 in 11 of his 13 years in the NHL and in the top 10 for 8 of those years. (He was 12th among SV% leaders just last year.) Those are elite numbers, whether people want to admit it or not. Yes, Luo has meltdowns, no question. But, I don't think it's significantly more than other goalies. And unless someone wants to crunch the numbers for all goalies to prove that he does, it's nothing more than speculation to say he does. People tend to remember his meltdowns and put more weight to them than they do his good games. For example, many people think he's had more 6+ goals against games than shutouts in the playoffs, but the exact opposite is actually true. It may not feel true because we remember the bad games more easily, but it is still true. People want to compare Luo to Cory, but only with the things that make Cory look like he'll be so much better and not subject to all of those pesky "not perfect" moments they hate about Luo. It's just not reality. Cory is good all on his own. He also happens to have better stats than Luo over the last two years, but he too has already shown a similar capacity for meltdowns. For example, this year Luo let in 3+ goals in 7 games (or 39% of his 18 starts), and 4+ goals in 4 games (or 22% of his starts.) Remember, Luo was never pulled and was forced to complete every game he started even when struggling. He also went in in replacement of Cory twice, playing 33:23 and 57:33 of those games respectively. Given that he played at least half of each of those games, if we add those 2 games to his number of starts (for a total of 20 games), his stats drop to 35% for 3+ goals a game and 20% for 4+ goals a game. Also this year, Cory let in 3+ goals in 10 games (or 33% of his 30 starts), and he let in 4+ goals in 6 games (or 20%). And since Cory was also pulled from the Edmonton game after he let in 2 goals on 2 shots, that game isn't even included in his "meltdown" stats. If he had stayed in that game and allowed even one more goal, his 3+ goal games stat would jump to 37% of starts. Last year, Luo let in 3 or more goals in 25 games (or 46% of his 54 starts), and allowed 4+ goals in 10 games (or 19% of his starts). Cory let in 3 or more in 8 games (or 29% of his 28 starts) and allowed 4+ goals in 4 games (or 14% of his starts). Twice, Cory played more than half the game in relief of Luo, so if we add those to his starts, his stats drop to 27% for 3+ goals and 13% for 4+ goals. Given that last year was Cory's best career year to date (and that he actually had more starts last year that this year due to the shortened season), it's pretty clear that even at his best he is not free of "meltdowns" and is in fact not significantly better than supposedly "leaky" Luo. Expecting that a goalie won't have off nights is simply setting yourself up for disappointment. They're human, they have bad days. It doesn't make them bad goalies. The problem is people here tend to have tunnel vision. A player is either good or sucks and that is determined within whatever limited lens fans feel like using rather than the greater, and more accurate, lens of the entire NHL. Right now, Luo is being compared to only Cory without regard for the impressive level of consistency he has had throughout his career or for where he stands in relation to the rest of the league, to similarly paid goalies, or to goalies with similar career lengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marleau_12 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Have you seen him play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Why do you always feel the need to compare Cory and Lou? I'm not even talking about Cory? You say your a fan but you go out of the way in almost every one of your posts to try and make Lou look better then Cory? Sure he has a longer resume but why all the Cory bashing. I'm not talking about Cory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 First, most of my posts haven't been comparing them. I compared them in that message because you said Luo had to be done here because of his "meltdowns" and I was pointing out that all goalies have meltdowns, including Cory and we should stop expecting them to be perfect every game before Cory gets the same kind of ignorant disrespect from fans too. How you think that was trying to make Luo look better is beyond me. Did you even bother to read my post? ....And I KNOW you didn't bother to read any of my posts. If you're going to ignore the content of a message, why bother replying to it at all? Get it through your heads, people: Saying something nice about Luo is not a diss to Cory. And saying something bad about Luo is NOT a compliment to Cory either! They are independent of one another and can both be good and have faults like any human. If you keep pretending Cory is a goalie god who will never have bad games and then attack him when he proves to "only" be a good goalie subject to the same human mistakes as other goalies, you will end up being as unjustifiably disappointed with him as you are with Luo. And he won't deserve any more than Luo does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 First, most of my posts haven't been comparing them. I compared them in that message because you said Luo had to be done here because of his "meltdowns" and I was pointing out that all goalies have meltdowns, including Cory and we should stop expecting them to be perfect every game before Cory gets the same kind of ignorant disrespect from fans too. How you think that was trying to make Luo look better is beyond me. Did you even bother to read my post? ....And I KNOW you didn't bother to read any of my posts. If you're going to ignore the content of a message, why bother replying to it at all? Get it through your heads, people: Saying something nice about Luo is not a diss to Cory. And saying something bad about Luo is NOT a compliment to Cory either! They are independent of one another and can both be good and have faults like any human. If you keep pretending Cory is a goalie god who will never have bad games and then attack him when he proves to "only" be a good goalie subject to the same human mistakes as other goalies, you will end up being as unjustifiably disappointed with him as you are with Luo. And he won't deserve any more than Luo does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetica Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 It's well known that Lou has had meltdowns but you feel the need to use it as way to take stabs at Cory even though I wasn't talking about Cory? But right your a Cory fan, remove your sheep skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 My point is that you implied Luo has more meltdowns than the average goalie, and therefore he must be replaced. But, unless you can prove he has more than other goalies, you are unreasonable in judgement of Luo. And you are unreasonable in your expectation that any goalie we have won't have meltdowns. I did not take stabs at Cory, I pointed out facts. They're not stabs just because they don't play into your childish fantasy version of him that never makes a mistake or has an off day. It's not an insult to him to point out the fact that he is human and has bad games or that he too is at the mercy of his team to help him play well. Stop with the "you're not really a Cory fan" fan-ier than thou crap. If anything, it's you who isn't truly a fan of Cory because you don't want to see him for what he actually is. You don't want to see all of his downsides. You think it's an insult just to admit he even has downsides (despite the fact that every single human being ever has them). That's not being a fan. That's just indulging in silly hero worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmployeeoftheMonth Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Can someone post a wolf in sheeps clothing photo for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Seriously? How many posts in a row are you going to make about this? We get it, you don't like that somebody is making a good argument against something you believe to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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