Too Early to call Kassian a dissapointment?

[Baggins]

Last year, this was fair comment when we were really hurting for depth at centre. This year, Santorelli has replaced everything that Hodgson would have given us and then some: Santorelli is simply the better player and comes at a fraction of the cost. Hodgson is not such a big deal and the jury is very much out on him, as it is on Kassian, who is at least showing some overall improvement in his game. While you're right to say that we haven't yet reached Baggin's scenario where the two are on equal point totals, it's trending that way, and Kassian's physicality gives us a chance against teams like Boston, LA and St. Louis that are otherwise going to eat us alive. I think we have already won that trade, and it will only become more evident with time.

The 50+ point scenario I was referring to was if they were both at that level at the time of the trade. If Kassian was at the same skill level as Hodgson at the time of the trade no GM in his would right mind would trade him for just Hodgson. Kassian is faster, bigger, more physical and willing to drop the gloves. Attributes Hodgson will never have. This trade wasn't about point totals, it was about the types of players and addressing a need.

[OrrFour]

I've posed this situational question several times and nobody has ever answered it.....

I have a 50+ point center who is an average skater, average size, doesn't play physical or throw big hits and doesn't drop the gloves. You have a 50+ point power forward who has good speed, is big, plays physical and throws big hits, and is willing to drop the gloves with anybody. Would you trade me straight across?

This is the wrong question.

The questions the team asked itself were:

Will Cody be a 90+ point number one center in the Yzerman mold?

Will Kass be a 70+ point power forward in the Lucic mold?

If the answer to both quesions is 'yes', then which of the two is more important to our team going forward?

They made the trade so you know what our managment thought.

[Gross-Misconduct]

Kassian's game is now becoming much more consistent and yet another night where he flashed a little "Kass que c'est" on his pass to Tanev. Plus he actually almost scored short-side right before that.

Not to rain on your 'Love-on' for Kassian, but they teach you that pass in peewee. Blindly throwing the puck in front of the net from that position is very basic. I would expect a 1st round pick to make that play. Let's not make it out to be some amazing Gretzky like pass.

Kassian fans are sure impressed easily.

[TimberWolf]

Not to rain on your 'Love-on' for Kassian, but they teach you that pass in peewee. Blindly throwing the puck in front of the net from that position is very basic. I would expect a 1st round pick to make that play. Let's not make it out to be some amazing Gretzky like pass.

Kassian fans are sure impressed easily.

And Kassian haters won't give him an inch

The rest of us hockey fans will watch him develop

[surtur]

This season...

CoHo and Kass are even in games played @ 33

CoHo has 8 goals and 11 assists playing on the top line with Vanek/Moulson

Kass has 7 goals and 2 assists playing mostly 4th line with Sestito/Weise/Booth

Time on ice Coho is averaging 18:28, Kass is averaging 11:40

Power play minutes Coho is averaging 3 minutes, Kass is averaging 25 seconds

If you truly wanted to judge these players equally the first thing you would do is remove the powerplay time from the equation.

Now we have CoHo at 15:28 ice time and Kass at 11:15

So without their powerplay points...

CoHo has 4 goals and 7 assists (playing on the top line with Vanek/Moulson)

Kass has 7 goals and 2 assists (playing mostly 4th line with Sestito/Weise/Booth)

Now to even out the ice times i'll divide CoHo's ES TOI by kass' ES TOI (15.5/11.25=1.38)

So Kassians projected increase in production would be... (7g X 1.38 and 2a X 1.38)

Kass 10 goals, 3 assists for 13 points

vs.

Coho 4 goals, 7 assists for 11 points

This is still without factoring in the Vanek/Moulson vs Sestito/Weise/Booth linemate factor.

how about the teams they scored on ie Eastern teams vs Western teams

[Gross-Misconduct]

This season...

CoHo and Kass are even in games played @ 33

CoHo has 8 goals and 11 assists playing on the top line with Vanek/Moulson

Kass has 7 goals and 2 assists playing mostly 4th line with Sestito/Weise/Booth

Time on ice Coho is averaging 18:28, Kass is averaging 11:40

Power play minutes Coho is averaging 3 minutes, Kass is averaging 25 seconds

If you truly wanted to judge these players equally the first thing you would do is remove the powerplay time from the equation.

Now we have CoHo at 15:28 ice time and Kass at 11:15

So without their powerplay points...

CoHo has 4 goals and 7 assists (playing on the top line with Vanek/Moulson)

Kass has 7 goals and 2 assists (playing mostly 4th line with Sestito/Weise/Booth)

Now to even out the ice times i'll divide CoHo's ES TOI by kass' ES TOI (15.5/11.25=1.38)

So Kassians projected increase in production would be... (7g X 1.38 and 2a X 1.38)

Kass 10 goals, 3 assists for 13 points

vs.

Coho 4 goals, 7 assists for 11 points

This is still without factoring in the Vanek/Moulson vs Sestito/Weise/Booth linemate factor.

You've obviously done a bit of work here. I'm interested though, what if you replaced Kassian with Brad Richardson? What would his totals look like? Better than Kassian's numbers? Just wondering cause no one is making excuses for Richardson.

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

I swear ever since Kassian has come here it's been the same talk over and over again, it's like deja vu for how long? He's looking better out there, he's been consistent the last few games... He keeps showing potential, if he only could keep it up all the time.

CDC in 5 years, Kassian is using his body more I like it he's been looking much better out there the last few games, oh looks like Kassian has his legs out there tonight, what happened to Kassian from last game, is he even playing tonight?

[TOMapleLaughs]

You've obviously done a bit of work here. I'm interested though, what if you replaced Kassian with Brad Richardson? What would his totals look like? Better than Kassian's numbers? Just wondering cause no one is making excuses for Richardson.

Richardson's numbers are irrelevant. So are Weise's, Higgins', Sestito's, etc.

Because no one is whining about trading our future team captain for them.

I'm alright with boosting Kassian's stats via weighted analysis, but what's being forgotten is that Coho's offense this season, such as it is, has come against top checking. Kassian's hasn't.

And while Coho can play some more minutes per game, Kassian has shown a bit of inconsistency in that regard.

However, while Coho has slowed down as of late and is now out due to injury, Kassian is slowly but surely getting better and more useful than his old self as of late. So the argument that Kassian helps us out more than Coho would've... Right now... Is a totally valid one.

Still not ultra-impressed with either player at this point. But liking what Kass might turn out to be. If he does nothing in the playoffs, then that's a huge disappointment.

[Canuck Surfer]

The 50+ point scenario I was referring to was if they were both at that level at the time of the trade. If Kassian was at the same skill level as Hodgson at the time of the trade no GM in his would right mind would trade him for just Hodgson. Kassian is faster, bigger, more physical and willing to drop the gloves. Attributes Hodgson will never have. This trade wasn't about point totals, it was about the types of players and addressing a need.

The whole problem with the trade, since day 1, is that all these attributes were packaged in a prospect!

Contenders trade for battle hardened veterans. Look, I cheer for Kassian, believe he is becoming a player. To the point of the OP, no he's not a bust. But we can never win this trade. We banked on a player we had to wait for. The potential of the last 2 years, when we could have continued to be contenders or won a cup, was wasted.

Kassian did not fill a need. He is just starting to now...

[Absent Canuck]

Bertuzzi's first season over 50 points came the season he turned 25.

Lucic's first season over 50 points came when he was 22.

If Kassian was Lucic we wouldn't have gotten him for just Hodgson.

I've posed this situational question several times and nobody has ever answered it.....

I have a 50+ point center who is an average skater, average size, doesn't play physical or throw big hits and doesn't drop the gloves. You have a 50+ point power forward who has good speed, is big, plays physical and throws big hits, and is willing to drop the gloves with anybody. Would you trade me straight across?

Sabres did. Sucks to be them

[Absent Canuck]

Richardson's numbers are irrelevant. So are Weise's, Higgins', Sestito's, etc.

Because no one is whining about trading our future team captain for them.

I'm alright with boosting Kassian's stats via weighted analysis, but what's being forgotten is that Coho's offense this season, such as it is, has come against top checking. Kassian's hasn't.

And while Coho can play some more minutes per game, Kassian has shown a bit of inconsistency in that regard.

However, while Coho has slowed down as of late and is now out due to injury, Kassian is slowly but surely getting better and more useful than his old self as of late. So the argument that Kassian helps us out more than Coho would've... Right now... Is a totally valid one.

Still not ultra-impressed with either player at this point. But liking what Kass might turn out to be. If he does nothing in the playoffs, then that's a huge disappointment.

Hodgson was never going to be captain here. He did not have the respect of any of his team mates. In fact, they mocked the guy the day he was traded by taping a plastic C to his sweater. Bieksa even make jokes about him behind his back the day after the trade.

Its only Hodgson fanboys who had the ridiculous fantasy that he was going to be captain.

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

And Kassian haters won't give him an inch

The rest of us hockey fans will watch him develop

This has been the story of Kassian's time so far in Vancouver and will continue to be for a while.

For goodness sakes people just sit back and enjoy the ride. Would you rather be in Buffalo's position? No? Then shut up.

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

Considering that Hodgson is playing first-line minutes on a nightly basis, his numbers are a joke.

[skyfall]

one time torts said kassian was good at times and was crappy at times. I think that pretty much sums him up.

[Baggins]

The whole problem with the trade, since day 1, is that all these attributes were packaged in a prospect!

Contenders trade for battle hardened veterans. Look, I cheer for Kassian, believe he is becoming a player. To the point of the OP, no he's not a bust. But we can never win this trade. We banked on a player we had to wait for. The potential of the last 2 years, when we could have continued to be contenders or won a cup, was wasted.

Kassian did not fill a need. He is just starting to now...

Hodgson didn't exactly fill our need either with both Henrik and Kesler ahead of him and him complaining about his ice time. As I've said you weren't going to get the same skill back that included the attributes we needed for Hodgson. Nor would you get your battle hardened veteran of the skill level you want for him. He was still relatively unproven then and still isn't a star in this league today. This wasn't a trade for now. It was a trade for the future. That was a given at the time. This trade addressed a need for both teams and both teams need to give the players the time and opportunity to reach their full potential.

[Baggins]

Sabres did. Sucks to be them

No they didn't. They weren't equal point producers at the time of the trade.

[Canuck Surfer]

Hodgson didn't exactly fill our need either with both Henrik and Kesler ahead of him and him complaining about his ice time. As I've said you weren't going to get the same skill back that included the attributes we needed for Hodgson. Nor would you get your battle hardened veteran of the skill level you want for him. He was still relatively unproven then and still isn't a star in this league today. This wasn't a trade for now. It was a trade for the future. That was a given at the time. This trade addressed a need for both teams and both teams need to give the players the time and opportunity to reach their full potential.

No it did not. Kassian only played 5 or 8 games last year where he was a physically dominant player. Maybe 2 the year he arrived, when in fact he should have gone straight to the minors to continue to develop. He took up a roster spot which was being better filled by Byron Bitz than the Kassian who arrived on trade day.

Kassian has now easily passed Bitz but is just starting to fill the actual role we want now almost 2 years post trade. And he's still not consistent, in spite of all the tools. I am sold we should have moved Hodgson. But we should have moved him for a veteran. And you may not believe he would have commanded a veteran but I do.

You are welcome to believe Gillis made the move for the future. It contrasts from comments trade day where Gillis thought he was adding elements to the team we needed to compete in the play off's. And common logic; what contender have you ever seen trading hot young players for futures??? It was a dumb move playing money-ball, trying to get a prospect to do a grown man's job; tricked that our boy looked like such a man. Then Gillis back tracked and covered his butt calling it a move for the future. Thats my opinion.

Hey, we can retrieve value as Kassian comes into his own. But we can never win as we lost 2 productive years, maybe 3? Thats not how contenders win trades. We took a step backwards the day he arrived.

[Absent Canuck]

No they didn't. They weren't equal point producers at the time of the trade.

The use of Patrick Stewart is interesting .

It reminds me of this guy I know who is 50 something who tries to act younger than his kids.

[Absent Canuck]

No it did not. Kassian only played 5 or 8 games last year where he was a physically dominant player. Maybe 2 the year he arrived, when in fact he should have gone straight to the minors to continue to develop. He took up a roster spot which was being better filled by Byron Bitz than the Kassian who arrived on trade day.

Kassian has now easily passed Bitz but is just starting to fill the actual role we want now almost 2 years post trade. And he's still not consistent, in spite of all the tools. I am sold we should have moved Hodgson. But we should have moved him for a veteran. And you may not believe he would have commanded a veteran but I do.

You are welcome to believe Gillis made the move for the future. It contrasts from comments trade day where Gillis thought he was adding elements to the team we needed to compete in the play off's. And common logic; what contender have you ever seen trading hot young players for futures??? It was a dumb move playing money-ball, trying to get a prospect to do a grown man's job; tricked that our boy looked like such a man. Then Gillis back tracked and covered his butt calling it a move for the future. Thats my opinion.

Hey, we can retrieve value as Kassian comes into his own. But we can never win as we lost 2 productive years, maybe 3? Thats not how contenders win trades. We took a step backwards the day he arrived.

You make some valid points but I am of the opinion that Hodgson was never going to be able to add anything in a playoff sense due to his lack of size , footspeed and strength. I cant imagine the guy having any impact against a Kings team at all. We would have got flattened against the Kings and the refs clobbered us against the Sharks.

Moving him for a veteran has some merit but whom? And what if that failed? His head would be on a chopping block. I think Kass is excellent value for Cody.

Lets face it. We couldnt develop another scoring center. We didnt have the space.

Sabres couldnt have the patience to develop a power forward. It takes years and years. I think the trade worked out good for both teams.

[prana16]

Here's an intangible for ya: Health.

While Cody's out nursing a broken finger, lol, Kassian assisted on a game-winner.

To be better at the game, ya first have to be IN the game, champ.

Edit: I spelled chump, but i meant champ. Lol.

I wonder of you were using that argument when zack was a healthy scratch or suspended or out with a back injury last year?