aGENT Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I think Gillis has done enough really good stuff to make up for the dumb things he has done to deserve this offseason to improve the hockey team. If he can trade Kesler and Edler for their value I will have my faith restored. And if neither/both of those don't happen? What if the team is still appreciably better next year (and/or the year following) despite that? Careful of such absolute statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Which has been my point about his earlier posts in the 2nd line center thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absent Canuck Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 And if neither/both of those don't happen? What if the team is still appreciably better next year (and/or the year following) despite that? Careful of such absolute statements. I am aware of the consequences of putting out a bold statement like that. When I post I try to weigh various views and the ramifications of my words. If Gillis does not trade Kesler and Edler for their worth, it becomes a degree of disappointment for me. If he gets net for Kesler and cant trade Edler because he refuses, then obviously he is off the hook. If he simply sits on his hands then I will be more inclined for his removal. And in the end, we cannot be afraid to say what we really feel , even if it means backlash when we are mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I am aware of the consequences of putting out a bold statement like that. When I post I try to weigh various views and the ramifications of my words. If Gillis does not trade Kesler and Edler for their worth, it becomes a degree of disappointment for me. If he gets net for Kesler and cant trade Edler because he refuses, then obviously he is off the hook. If he simply sits on his hands then I will be more inclined for his removal. And in the end, we cannot be afraid to say what we really feel , even if it means backlash when we are mistaken. I honestly don't see either of them moving (unless Kesler ACTUALLY wants out...which I have serious doubts about). Edler (nor management) have shown any serious signs of him being moved either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamJamIam Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Why is that that some people cannot have a disagreeing opinion without feeling the need to insult the other person? Seriously, disagree with me all you want but nothing I have said makes me an idiot. That is the trouble with CDC. People like you feel that your opinion is valid and all others are not unless they agree with you. There is a difference between thinking someone else's opinion is idiotic and calling someone else an idiot for having an opinion that you happen to not agree with. I don't think you are an idiot. I do think your lack of any evidence other than insults to try to suggest I am is idiotic though. See what I did there? I simply posted a general policy of how an idiot "succeeds" on a forum by being prolific enough to outlast others. It was advice for those trying to counter everything that you write. For whatever reason, you have boatloads of time to dedicate to this endeavour of ragging on MG. By default, you will "win" by simply outlasting others irrespective of the quality of your arguments. Even an idiot could do what you are doing. That's different than calling you an idiot. I think your logic is flawed, your points are due to gross selectivity and your motives are transparent. That's why I chime in rarely. My only comment to other posters is this: don't waste your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absent Canuck Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I honestly don't see either of them moving (unless Kesler ACTUALLY wants out...which I have serious doubts about). Edler (nor management) have shown any serious signs of him being moved either. Your point of view is perfectly valid. I am using some intuition which cannot be verified or denied by the facts. Like I said about Luongo, Kesler will not be a Canuck come training camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzy Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Not really. 2005 - Went off the board for Bourdon, who would likely have been a great player...but obviously should have drafted the big 1st-line center we desperately needed. Raymond in 2nd round was a good pick though. 2006 - Again, went even further off the board and picked Grabner first round. He ended up decent enough, but there were a number of better players out there. Nothing from the rest of the draft. 2007 - Jack squat. Went further still off the board for Patrick White, who wouldn't even make the ECHL today. Used the high 2nd from LA (33rd overall) on another fail. And that's it. 17 picks, including three 1st rounders and two 2nds - and only two inconsistent 2nd-line wingers and possibly a decent top-4 defenseman to show for it. "Decent" would have brought along some depth guys too. What makes Nonis' picks all the more suspect is how little help they even provided to our farm team. Of the 14 non-NHLers, only Mario Bliznak, Juraj Simek, and Sergei Shirokov played 100 AHL games (Kris Fredheim also did, but only long after his rights were up). Alexandre Vincent, Matt Butcher, Evan Fuller, Patrick White, Charles-Antoine Messier, Ilya Kablukov never even played a single AHL game! Organizationally, that's downright TERRIBLE! In contrast, Gillis's picks have already yielded numerous solid AHL-ers. There are still questions as to how many will make the bigs, but in recent years we have had a much deeper team that is harder to crack than the one Nonis was icing. Not really. 2005 - Went off the board for Bourdon, who would likely have been a great player...but obviously should have drafted the big 1st-line center we desperately needed. Raymond in 2nd round was a good pick though. 2006 - Again, went even further off the board and picked Grabner first round. He ended up decent enough, but there were a number of better players out there. Nothing from the rest of the draft. 2007 - Jack squat. Went further still off the board for Patrick White, who wouldn't even make the ECHL today. Used the high 2nd from LA (33rd overall) on another fail. And that's it. 17 picks, including three 1st rounders and two 2nds - and only two inconsistent 2nd-line wingers and possibly a decent top-4 defenseman to show for it. "Decent" would have brought along some depth guys too. What makes Nonis' picks all the more suspect is how little help they even provided to our farm team. Of the 14 non-NHLers, only Mario Bliznak, Juraj Simek, and Sergei Shirokov played 100 AHL games (Kris Fredheim also did, but only long after his rights were up). Alexandre Vincent, Matt Butcher, Evan Fuller, Patrick White, Charles-Antoine Messier, Ilya Kablukov never even played a single AHL game! Organizationally, that's downright TERRIBLE! In contrast, Gillis's picks have already yielded numerous solid AHL-ers. There are still questions as to how many will make the bigs, but in recent years we have had a much deeper team that is harder to crack than the one Nonis was icing. And with the 25th pick the Vancouver Canucks pick.... Patrick White. I still shake my head in disbelief at that off the board pick. Delorme should of been fired a year or two after that. He's lucky that Gillis invested more money in scouting as I think that has covered up how bad a job he did when that investment wasn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I can think a post is dumb without thinking a person is. That is the difference. And some of my best friends are arrogant and stubborn. It is not an insult to Gillis. It is simply a statement of opinion based on how he talks and acts. Stubborness and arrogance are not inherently negative. Their are positives to them as well. I just don't share the opinion that they have served Mike Gillis too well in his time in Vancouver. Fair enough wallstreetamigo. I think you contribute some good debate to these boards. I get that you don't like Gillis so will move on. Tour contempt for AV was also pretty obvious, as was your very vocal endorsement of Tortorella - what's your review of Tortorella to date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Your point of view is perfectly valid. I am using some intuition which cannot be verified or denied by the facts. Like I said about Luongo, Kesler will not be a Canuck come training camp. ...we wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Most of those players named aren't even in the Canucks system anymore, but is Shirokov still there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That wasn't a bold move. It was forced after he entirely mishandled the Luongo situation. His hands were tied and he had to do something. He demonstrated terrible asset management and lost any leverage the Canucks had from having 2 starting caliber NHL goalies and only got half the return had he traded him earlier. He held onto Luongo when he could have been traded for a better return. Ended up getting Bo Horvat, Shawn Matthias, and Jacob Markstrom for Luongo and Schneider combined. Should have gotten that return for each at minimum meaning prospect/draft pick, roster player, young player. Wow. You've got to be kidding. You thought that Gillis should have gotten a top 10 pick, a bluechip goaltending prospect, and a big, young mid range center for Luongo alone? And people call me a homer. That is some technicolor dreaming you are doing. I suggested/proposed that they'd get a premier prospect and a B+ prospect all along - before the cap drop and CBA recapture penalty - and a whole lot of folks thought that was too much, that I was overvaluing him, and that they'd never get that. Well, that's pretty much what Gillis just managed - a hell of a deal imo, and thankfully, the window to send Luongo to the one market he wanted finally opened. I'm curious to hear an elaboration on the "mishandling" - people love to make those kind of facile judgements, but when and in exactly what context was Gillis going to get this return you expected in hindsight? I think you should be happy with what the Canucks got, take it, and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absent Canuck Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I definitely think we screwed Florida in the Luongo trade. The guy is 35 years old for christs sakes and signed for 8 more years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I definitely think we screwed Florida in the Luongo trade. The guy is 35 years old for christs sakes and signed for 8 more years. Tell that to MG haters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Tell that to MG haters. Or the Luo worshippers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Or the Luo worshippers. Dear God, how could I forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I honestly don't see either of them moving (unless Kesler ACTUALLY wants out...which I have serious doubts about). Edler (nor management) have shown any serious signs of him being moved either. I have speculated that if Kesler truly does want out (maybe to a lesser extent if he just agrees to a trade) then perhaps Burrows and Bieksa as the other parts of that trio of friends might consider a move while the Canucks re-tool. Speculation as I say, but they are a group within the group - although they certainly aren't closed off to others. But I'm not as sure your suggestion that neither Kesler or Edler are moved (because neither want to or the value isn't there) was an option in any of his scenarios. And with the 25th pick the Vancouver Canucks pick.... Patrick White. I still shake my head in disbelief at that off the board pick. Delorme should of been fired a year or two after that. He's lucky that Gillis invested more money in scouting as I think that has covered up how bad a job he did when that investment wasn't there. I really don't know if Delorme was the problem or the quality of scouts underneath him was. I'd think Delorme must have done some research of his own so would have to answer for picks he recommended based on that, but I'm not sure just how much responsibility he'd shoulder. We did manage a number of pretty good picks in that decade as well though, but the percentage of NHL'ers wasn't great. Most of those players named aren't even in the Canucks system anymore, but is Shirokov still there? We traded his rights to Florida for Mike Duco when Shirokov went back to Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Cherry Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 No, Mike Gillis should fired. He's made way too many errors (the Luongo situation, David Booth, new Sedins contract, etc.) and it's time for a change. Keep Torts, as he is good working with young players, but Gillis is past his expiry date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I'm really looking forward to the options that Gillis now has this coming summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFCanuck Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Kassian and Booth leading the team. Where Burke's core at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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