American (philosophy) is stupid

[Dedalus]

Anecdotal is all we have. Anything else is conjecture based off stats. Name me a country that allows free sale and ownership of firearms that has a lower incident rate per capita? You forgot to compare the US to other countries that allow the free ownership of guns.

Which country is better to live in than others ? How does anyone prove something like that? I would prefer to take the 'anecdotal' opinions of people who actually live it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Its quite strange to read someone living in California who says its better to live in Canada and a bunch of other countries too. It reads like you live in Canada.

It's called life experiences and living in different countries.

It seems you are not willing to have a conversation based on science and empiricism, but only subjectivity. So, I don't really care to continue this conversation.

You have the data available. In fact, a couple of users posted them. It is up to you to look it up if you so desire and if you think numbers can closely give us insight into a country's reality. It appears you do not believe this, so, like I said, I'll end it here.

[Bocivus]

I just watched a W5 documentary on guns in the US and there were over 2400 people treated for gunshot wounds in hospital in Chicago last year. Think about that. I mean multiple people are shot up every single day of the year at that rate. Where I live(outside of GVR) if there is even one or two a year it's newsworthy. If you're walking around down there you probably are not going to be overly surprised if you catch a bullet.

But.. But.... But wait! That can't possibly happen! Chicago is a gun free zone!

[Bocivus]

Guns are a relatively minor problem in the US compared to some of their other issues.

Public education is severely lacking in the US compared to other western nations.

The newly passed 'Obamacare' is nothing more than mandatory health insurance. It isn't an actual public healthcare system.

The government agenda has been hijacked by corporate interests, who literally can buy politicians to enact laws that do not serve the actual wishes of the people.

The USA is a huge nation by population - they need to fix their infrastructure. Their government needs to free themselves from the shackles of corporate interest and function as they are supposed to: by carrying out the wishes of those they are supposed to be governing over.

So that nation produces under-educated youth in a society with crumbling public services due to lack of funding and mismanagement, growing income disparity due to monopolization and loss of domestic employment to cheaper options in Asia. Add to that a culture that allows easier access to guns than it does to free healthcare or proper education.

The standard of living for many of these people will not improve in this atmosphere. Eventually when enough poor and starving people get together with their guns, they might exercise something mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. Move over, French Revolution. There could be a much more bloody one on the way.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Very well articulated and thought out post. Good points and I couldn't agree more.

I think the government needs to step aside from the public education system and let the states (10th Amdendment) handle it. This common core crap has got to go. And yes, our politicians are bought and paid for by the corporations. It's all about self interest while getting more money and power. In a sane country 95% of the politicians would be taken out in handcuffs but we live in an upside down world. It's really shameful. I'm embarrased by our self-serving, lying, fraudulent and corrupt sheisters running the country.

Don't forget the media though. The quislings in the media are supposed to be WATCH dogs for the people not LAP dogs for the gevernment. The media bias and refusal to cover certain issues is so blatantly out of control, yet most of us Americans believe whatever comes on CNN, FOXNews or MSNBC. Critical thought and self education has gone out the window and it's encouraged to be that way. As long as a putz has his Iphone, sports and TV shows and has not a care in the world about what the government does this will continue. The worst phrase I can hear someone say is "Oh, I don't pay attention to politics because it doesn't interest me". And I always reply "Well politics is paying attention to you"!.

I've about lost faith in the true American way as being a Constitutional Republic. I have no confidence in the eleciton system being fair as this regime will do ANYTHING to stay in power.

[Bocivus]

Which doesn't do a world of good when Gary, Indiana, separated from Chicago by nothing more than a sign has no such laws, neither does Milwaukee, Wisconsin, about 2 hours away. Gun laws don't work in a place like the US with unrestricted travel and an unlimited supply of weapons, unless ALL the states get with the program, good luck getting Texas or Arizona to go along.

I think you're missing the point, dude. Criminals don't follow gun laws, or any law for that matter. You can make all the laws you want and the criminals won't follow them hence making the law abiding citizens easy victims.

[Tearloch7]

Makes me think of that scene in the simpsons where Barney is getting blind at the Bar ," how come i still feel crappy after a dozen beers" , he grabs a handgun, " ahh there is the inflated sense of self esteem i was looking for.

Amen, Brother D ..

[Bill Sikes]

I think you're missing the point, dude. Criminals don't follow gun laws, or any law for that matter. You can make all the laws you want and the criminals won't follow them hence making the law abiding citizens easy victims.

Actually I think you are the one who missed the point, try reading the post I made a few down from that one, the one with the Dalai Lama quote.

[Jimayo]

I think you're missing the point, dude. Criminals don't follow gun laws, or any law for that matter. You can make all the laws you want and the criminals won't follow them hence making the law abiding citizens easy victims.

Criminals can't make their own guns(and if you bring up pop guns I'll bitch slap you). If the legal supply can only go to the military or the cops where are the black market guns going to come from? Unless you are saying gun manufacturers will start doing the illegal sales themselves instead of gun shops making illegal sales then the supply to criminals will dry up. It's not a crop they can grow it's advanced technology that can't be jury rigged on the street.

For those wondering pop guns are home made guns. They fire one shot before breaking and it's 50/50 whether it fires or explodes.

[TrevorLinden4ever]

Criminals can't make their own guns(and if you bring up pop guns I'll bitch slap you). If the legal supply can only go to the military or the cops where are the black market guns going to come from? Unless you are saying gun manufacturers will start doing the illegal sales themselves instead of gun shops making illegal sales then the supply to criminals will dry up. It's not a crop they can grow it's advanced technology that can't be jury rigged on the street.

Thank goodness you're not a member of the academic faculty. (BTW Im just kicking myself for even dignifying the OP post with a response)

[Jimayo]

Thank goodness you're not a member of the academic faculty. (BTW Im just kicking myself for even dignifying the OP post with a response)

About the response I'd expect from someone like you.

How totally you've proven me wrong.

[Bocivus]

Criminals can't make their own guns(and if you bring up pop guns I'll bitch slap you). If the legal supply can only go to the military or the cops where are the black market guns going to come from? Unless you are saying gun manufacturers will start doing the illegal sales themselves instead of gun shops making illegal sales then the supply to criminals will dry up. It's not a crop they can grow it's advanced technology that can't be jury rigged on the street.

For those wondering pop guns are home made guns. They fire one shot before breaking and it's 50/50 whether it fires or explodes.

Oh no! He's gonna bitch slap me! lol. The supply will dry up? Haha! Yeah because the guns have an expiration date! You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you? Do you have any idea how many guns there are in the US? Leveling the playing field is the best bet for self defense unless you're one of those people who project their own actions and insecurities on gun owners.

[Bocivus]

Actually I think you are the one who missed the point, try reading the post I made a few down from that one, the one with the Dalai Lama quote.

Fair enough. My apologies. I didn't see the Dalai Lama quote at the time I posted.

[kurtis]

They sure are. They Say they don't support dictator ship in Syria, but are very good friends with 3 other countries that have them!!!

[Green Building]

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. - Winnie

But but but the citizens of democratic countries have every right to be uninformed and ignorant voters!

[Bill Sikes]

Maybe if you had tougher gun laws simmiliar to those that exist here in Australia then there would be no shooting road rage deaths.......like here in Aus.

in the UK where the gun laws make it very hard for the average person to own a gun , where the Uniformed police do not carry guns the firearm related death rate is 0.25 {2010] for every 100,00 people.

In Aus it is 1.06 {2010} and in the US 10.3 {2011}, the numbers speak for themselves

It might help some, but that is treating the symptom not the disease, Canada has some very tough gun laws and it still happens here, just less frequently than at our neighbours's house

Today's headline

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/moncton-shooting-manhunt-on-for-killer-of-3-rcmp-officers

[Jimayo]

Oh no! He's gonna bitch slap me! lol. The supply will dry up? Haha! Yeah because the guns have an expiration date! You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you? Do you have any idea how many guns there are in the US? Leveling the playing field is the best bet for self defense unless you're one of those people who project their own actions and insecurities on gun owners.

No no no, you are a special kind of stupid. You live in a world where criminals with guns don't get caught.

Guns don't need an expiration date, they just need to be confiscated and destroyed without the ability to be replaced.

[Jimayo]

But but but the citizens of democratic countries have every right to be uninformed and ignorant voters!

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

[Jimayo]

Today's headline

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/moncton-shooting-manhunt-on-for-killer-of-3-rcmp-officers

Wow, somebody got shot in canada. That totally means gun control doesn't work at all.

Or in other words, derp, yet another poster who doesn't understand statistics.

[Buddhas Hand]

It might help some, but that is treating the symptom not the disease, Canada has some very tough gun laws and it still happens here, just less frequently than at our neighbours's house

Today's headline

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/moncton-shooting-manhunt-on-for-killer-of-3-rcmp-officers

I am not conversant with your Gun laws but ours were not that strict ,then in april 1996 the Port Arthur massacre happened , Martin Bryant Murdered 35 people and injured 23 more in a shooting "spree",.

Gun laws became extremely tough after that and while we still have some criminally related shootings we do not have mass shoootings.

Decline in gun deaths doubled since Australia destroyed 700,000 firearms

14 December 2006

The risk of dying by gunshot has halved since Australia destroyed 700,000 privately owned firearms, according to a new study published today in the international research journal, Injury Prevention.

"Not only were Australia's post-Port Arthur gun laws followed by a decade in which the crime they were designed to reduce hasn't happened again, but we also saw a life-saving bonus: the decline in overall gun deaths accelerated to twice the rate seen before the new gun laws," says study lead author, Professor Simon Chapman.

"From 1996 to 2003, the total number of gun deaths each year fell from 521 to 289, suggesting that the removal of more than 700,000 guns was associated with a faster declining rate of gun suicide and gun homicide," said Adjunct Associate Professor Philip Alpers, also from the School of Public Health at the University of Sydney. "This was a milestone public health and safety issue, driven by an overwhelming swing in public opinion, and promptly delivered by governments."

After 112 people were shot dead in 11 mass shootings* in a decade, Australia collected and destroyed categories of firearms designed to kill many people quickly. In his immediate reaction to the Port Arthur massacre, Prime Minister John Howard said of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns: "There is no legitimate interest served in my view by the free availability in this country of weapons of this kind… That is why we have proposed a comprehensive package of reforms designed to implement tougher, more effective and uniform gun laws."

As study co-author Philip Alpers points out: "The new legislation's first declared aim was to reduce the risk of similar gun massacres. In the 10½ years since the gun buy-back announcement, no mass shootings have occurred in Australia."

"On top of that, and despite the new gun laws not being designed to reduce gun suicide, domestic shootings, and the much less common 'stranger danger' individual gun homicides, firearm fatalities in the three largest categories - total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides - all at least doubled their previous rates of decline following the revised firearm legislation."

While the rates per 100,000 of total firearm deaths, firearm suicides and firearm homicides were already reducing by an average of 3 per cent each year until 1996, these average rates of decline doubled to 6 per centeach year (total gun death), and more than doubled to 7.4 per cent(gun suicide) and 7.5 per centeach year (gun homicide) following the introduction of new gun laws.

By 2002/03, Australia's rate of 0.27 firearm-related homicides per 100,000 population had dropped to one-fifteenth that of the United States.

The authors conclude that "The Australian example provides evidence that removing large numbers of firearms from a community can be associated with a sudden and on-going decline in mass shootings, and accelerating declines in total firearm-related deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides."

*International definitions of "mass shooting" and "mass homicide" range from 3 to 5 victims killed. To exclude most spousal and family violence killings, a "mass shooting" is defined here as one in which five or more victims are shot dead in proximate events.

[Green Building]

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

"...nurtured by the false notion..."

Otherwise known as the stupid of the world achieving complete complacency within the societal framework they inhabit.

[Bill Sikes]

I am not conversant with your Gun laws but ours were not that strict ,then in april 1996 the Port Arthur massacre happened , Martin Bryant Murdered 35 people and injured 23 more in a shooting "spree",.

Gun laws became extremely tough after that and while we still have some criminally related shootings we do not have mass shoootings.

Decline in gun deaths doubled since Australia destroyed 700,000 firearms

14 December 2006

The risk of dying by gunshot has halved since Australia destroyed 700,000 privately owned firearms, according to a new study published today in the international research journal, Injury Prevention.

"Not only were Australia's post-Port Arthur gun laws followed by a decade in which the crime they were designed to reduce hasn't happened again, but we also saw a life-saving bonus: the decline in overall gun deaths accelerated to twice the rate seen before the new gun laws," says study lead author, Professor Simon Chapman.

"From 1996 to 2003, the total number of gun deaths each year fell from 521 to 289, suggesting that the removal of more than 700,000 guns was associated with a faster declining rate of gun suicide and gun homicide," said Adjunct Associate Professor Philip Alpers, also from the School of Public Health at the University of Sydney. "This was a milestone public health and safety issue, driven by an overwhelming swing in public opinion, and promptly delivered by governments."

After 112 people were shot dead in 11 mass shootings* in a decade, Australia collected and destroyed categories of firearms designed to kill many people quickly. In his immediate reaction to the Port Arthur massacre, Prime Minister John Howard said of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns: "There is no legitimate interest served in my view by the free availability in this country of weapons of this kind… That is why we have proposed a comprehensive package of reforms designed to implement tougher, more effective and uniform gun laws."

As study co-author Philip Alpers points out: "The new legislation's first declared aim was to reduce the risk of similar gun massacres. In the 10½ years since the gun buy-back announcement, no mass shootings have occurred in Australia."

"On top of that, and despite the new gun laws not being designed to reduce gun suicide, domestic shootings, and the much less common 'stranger danger' individual gun homicides, firearm fatalities in the three largest categories - total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides - all at least doubled their previous rates of decline following the revised firearm legislation."

While the rates per 100,000 of total firearm deaths, firearm suicides and firearm homicides were already reducing by an average of 3 per cent each year until 1996, these average rates of decline doubled to 6 per centeach year (total gun death), and more than doubled to 7.4 per cent(gun suicide) and 7.5 per centeach year (gun homicide) following the introduction of new gun laws.

By 2002/03, Australia's rate of 0.27 firearm-related homicides per 100,000 population had dropped to one-fifteenth that of the United States.

The authors conclude that "The Australian example provides evidence that removing large numbers of firearms from a community can be associated with a sudden and on-going decline in mass shootings, and accelerating declines in total firearm-related deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides."

*International definitions of "mass shooting" and "mass homicide" range from 3 to 5 victims killed. To exclude most spousal and family violence killings, a "mass shooting" is defined here as one in which five or more victims are shot dead in proximate events.

A few other things need to be considered. The US has a massive weapons manufacturing industry, for every gun destroyed they can barf out thousands more, Australia doesn't have weapons makers on anywhere near the scale the US does, Australia also has no land borders with any other country, to smuggle weapons in requires a plane or ship. No need to smuggle weapons into the US, thats where they are coming from for the most part. Canada's problem isn't our own weapons manufacturing, its a 5500 mile long undefended border with the US. Gun control can help to a limited extent, but until people attitudes towards guns and more importantly, EACH OTHER, changes, the carnage will continue.