[Player Discussion] Corrado

[Off_The_Schneid!]

I wouldn't say Hamilton is very good yet

[aGENT]

And what would you define as an "exceptional" player?

Really? Is this even a serious question?

Contrary to popular belief, Ehrhoff was actually good in his own end. He was a solid 2-way D. Just because a defensemen is good offensively doesn't mean he's bad defensively.

As EOTM already stated, Ehrhoff was at best "passable" in his own end. The main reason he wasn't horrible was that he could make a good play out of it (hence the PMD titile). Otherwise he was frequently out-muscled, lacked battle or ability to dig out pucks from corners/boards or box out opponents from around the crease.

Let's just say he was better at getting the puck out of the zone if he had it but struggled a bit when we/he didn't have possession.

[oldnews]

Contrary to popular belief, Ehrhoff was actually good in his own end. He was a solid 2-way D. Just because a defensemen is good offensively doesn't mean he's bad defensively.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as you and call Ehrhoff a solid 2-way D, but he did have a strength defensively imo. He was a good skater, and therefore was effective in retrieving neutral pucks / winning races to dumpins and moving the puck quickly. That's an underplayed 'defensive' aspect of pmds imo. Ehrhoff also tried to compensate for his lack of physicality with an active stick - he is fairly crafty defensively with his stick, but that obviously has it's limitations.

I thought he was fairly exposed in the SCF against Boston when the Canucks had lost Hamhius and Rome, Edler was playing with broken fingers, Ballard was ineffective with an MCL and concussion (and was scratched in favour of Tanev who was getting his first whiffs of NHL icetime). Ehrhoff had to be used outside his comfort zone, and the results weren't flattering.

The other factor that we don't really consider is that Ehrhoff himself had shoulder problems down the stretch that year and looked like he was playing injured himself. Who knows the extent of it, but those considerations could have played into the Canucks deciding not to get downright silly in contract negotiations with him. I find it borderline comical that people are still here (not referring to you or even this thread,, but moreso the Ehrhoff mania that still lives in the Benning threads) - even with the gift of hindsight, complaining that Gillis didn't offer enough to trump Buffalo.... I mean, look at the results - they're pretty plain to see - Ehrhoff scored 32, 22 and 33 points since departing to win his Cup. He scored 50 his last year here, which Edler followed up with a 49 point season, while Bieksa added 44 and Hamhius 37. The Canucks offense off the blueline did not dry up with the departure of Ehrhoff - that is revisionism actually, It took a few years and far more underlying reasons for that. One significant thing imo would be the losses/reduced depth down the middle - Malhotra alone provided a great deal of support to the blueline, defensive zone starts, faceoff wins, and territory produced that was then enjoyed by the top 6 and the blueline.

[Pimp C]

Did a cursory glance of the defencemen in the NHL who are 25 years and younger, and there's about 80 of them (to my surprise, there is a lot of really good young defencemen in the NHL right now). I wouldn't hesitate for one second trading Tanev for any one of 50 of them -- straight up, one for one.

Some of the exceptional <25 yo d-men (in no specific order): Fowler, McDonaugh, Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Karlsson, Subban

Some of the very good <25 yo d-men (in no specific order): Hamilton, Myers, Faulk, Barrie, Dekeyser, Voynov, Brodin, Jones, Hedman, Carlson, Bogosian

There's another >30 that I would rank above Tanev in terms of having superior ability today and/or upside potential.

Tanev was good last season in the context of the Canucks team. But put him in the big pool, and he's ordinary by comparison.

Tanev is better than Myers and Bogosian. Shattenkirk is incredibly overrated and is not on the same tier and McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Karlsson.

[Pimp C]

Really? Is this even a serious question?

I would say exceptional means someone that is one of the elite 10-20 players in the league in his position. But if you're going to be as loose with your definition of exceptional as I think you are, Tanev is one of the best young shut down D-men in the league, so yes he is an exceptional player.

As EOTM already stated, Ehrhoff was at best "passable" in his own end. The main reason he wasn't horrible was that he could make a good play out of it (hence the PMD titile). Otherwise he was frequently out-muscled, lacked battle or ability to dig out pucks from corners/boards or box out opponents from around the crease.

Let's just say he was better at getting the puck out of the zone if he had it but struggled a bit when we/he didn't have possession.

Ehrhoff had some weaknesses (mainly his strength along the boards and infront of the net) but he was very good at getting ahold of the puck and effortlessly getting it out of the zone.

[Pimp C]

I'm not sure I'd go as far as you and call Ehrhoff a solid 2-way D, but he did have a strength defensively imo. He was a good skater, and therefore was effective in retrieving neutral pucks / winning races to dumpins and moving the puck quickly. That's an underplayed 'defensive' aspect of pmds imo. Ehrhoff also tried to compensate for his lack of physicality with an active stick - he is fairly crafty defensively with his stick, but that obviously has it's limitations.

Yeah, calling him a solid 2-way D might be a bit of a stretch. I agree 100% with the bolded and his ability to get the puck up the ice with high efficiency is the main reason why I think he's pretty good defensively.

I thought he was fairly exposed in the SCF against Boston when the Canucks had lost Hamhius and Rome, Edler was playing with broken fingers, Ballard was ineffective with an MCL and concussion (and was scratched in favour of Tanev who was getting his first whiffs of NHL icetime). Ehrhoff had to be used outside his comfort zone, and the results weren't flattering.

The other factor that we don't really consider is that Ehrhoff himself had shoulder problems down the stretch that year and looked like he was playing injured himself. Who knows the extent of it, but those considerations could have played into the Canucks deciding not to get downright silly in contract negotiations with him.

Yeah, Ehrhoff had a significant shoulder injury and had to have it shot up with painkillers just to move it.

I find it borderline comical that people are still here (not referring to you or even this thread,, but moreso the Ehrhoff mania that still lives in the Benning threads) - even with the gift of hindsight, complaining that Gillis didn't offer enough to trump Buffalo.... I mean, look at the results - they're pretty plain to see - Ehrhoff scored 32, 22 and 33 points since departing to win his Cup. He scored 50 his last year here, which Edler followed up with a 49 point season, while Bieksa added 44 and Hamhius 37. The Canucks offense off the blueline did not dry up with the departure of Ehrhoff - that is revisionism actually, It took a few years and far more underlying reasons for that. One significant thing imo would be the losses/reduced depth down the middle - Malhotra alone provided a great deal of support to the blueline, defensive zone starts, faceoff wins, and territory produced that was then enjoyed by the top 6 and the blueline.

The complaining about Ehrhoff is annoying because people don't realize we didn't have the cap space to sign him unless we traded someone else.

[bigbadcanucks]

Tanev is better than Myers and Bogosian. Shattenkirk is incredibly overrated and is not on the same tier and McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Karlsson.

Wow...just grossly overrating Tanev. I'll take Myers, Bogosian, Shattenkirk straight up one for one for Tanev seven days a week and twice on Sundays.

[JeremyCuddles]

Tanev is better than Myers and Bogosian. Shattenkirk is incredibly overrated and is not on the same tier and McDonagh, Pietrangelo, Karlsson.

I love Tanev but if we were offered Bogosian or Myers straight up for him I may just take it. Both are still young and have more offensive upside.

[Guest Dasein]

Wow...just grossly overrating Tanev. I'll take Myers, Bogosian, Shattenkirk straight up one for one for Tanev seven days a week and twice on Sundays.

Seriously. Tanev is so overrated on this board.

[THERETOOL]

Seriously. Tanev is so overrated on this board.

I think its a little of both .. I think some under and some over . This is gonna be a big year for the kid . If he doesn't get mashed by huge hits he may be ok

[bigbadcanucks]

Seriously. Tanev is so overrated on this board.

That's a relief...I thought I was the only one on CDC that thought Tanev was over-rated. He does a lot things well, but as I posted previously in this thread, there's about 50 from a list of up to 80 d-men in Tanev's age group (20 to 25) that are playing in the NHL right now that I would trade for one-for-one.

[bigbadcanucks]

I think its a little of both .. I think some under and some over . This is gonna be a big year for the kid . If he doesn't get mashed by huge hits he may be ok

Would agree with you...Tanev is a good NHL defenceman and his underlying numbers tell a real good story...and he's going to get better than he is right now, but he's not going to get so much better that he contends for the Norris.

Kid has sky rocketed in the past two years, but he's probably getting close to his ceiling. I say this because even though he's got very good hockey grey matter, his physical limitations are going to prevent him from being an offensive threat and a physical shut-down player.

I have a bad feeling that his physical limitations are going to make him injury prone for years to come...he has yet to play a full season of hockey at the pro level because he's undersized (underweight) to play against the big bruisers in the Western Conference.

I like Tanev a lot...like that he was a walk on and made the show and that he's calm/cool/collected and doesn't take any stupid penalties. But like any other player on the Canucks, if he can be moved to make the team better, I am all for it.

[hockeywoot]

Wow...just grossly overrating Tanev. I'll take Myers, Bogosian, Shattenkirk straight up one for one for Tanev seven days a week and twice on Sundays.

I would take Shattenkirk easily. Other two are 'meh'. They're better than Tanev, sure. They have a higher potential/wider skillset, but that's mostly it.

Myers is expensive, and remains to be seen whether he'll be a legitimate #1D

Bogosian is quietly coming along, but may not ever reach his potential. Would people really care about himif it weren't for his draft position?

[hockeywoot]

That's a relief...I thought I was the only one on CDC that thought Tanev was over-rated. He does a lot things well, but as I posted previously in this thread, there's about 50 from a list of up to 80 d-men in Tanev's age group (20 to 25) that are playing in the NHL right now that I would trade for one-for-one.

50?

[ice orca]

Seriously. Tanev is so overrated on this board.

Yeah some people have him in Doughty territory.

[bigbadcanucks]

50?

Yup. Probably more.

Here's the list of close to 80 d-men <25 that played regularly (I many off on a few being regulars). Of the nearly 80, Tanev is middle of the pack.

Cam Fowler Hamphus Lindholm Sami Vatanen Oliver Ekman-Larson Brandon Gormley Michael Stone Doug Hamilton Torey Krug Jake McCabe Tyler Myers Mark Pysyk Rasmus Ristolainen Nikita Zadorov Tj Brodie Tyler Wotherspoon Justin Faulk Ryan Murphy Nick Leddy David Rundblad Tyson Barrie Tim Erixon Ryan Murray David Savard Kevin Connauton Brendon Dillon Jamie Olesiak Danny Dekeyser Brian Lashoff Brendan Smith Oscar Klefbloom Justin Schultz Erik Gudbranson Dimitry Kulikov Alex Petrovic Drew Doughty Jake Muzzin Slava Voynov Jonas Brodin Matt Dumba Marco Scandella Nathan Beaulieu PK Subban Jared Tinordi Ryan Ellis Seth Jones Roman Josi Eric Gelinas Jon Merrill Ryan McDonagh John Moore Dylan McIlrath Calvin deHaan Travis Hamonic Thomas Hickey Ryan Pulock Griffin Reinhart Cody Ceci Jared Cowen Erik Karlsson Patrick Wiercicoh Michael Del Zotto Luke Schenn Simon Dupres Olli Maataa Matt Tennyson Alex Pieterangelo Kevin Shattenkirk Mark Barberio Radko Gudas Victor Hedman Andrej Sustr Jake Gardiner Morgan Reily Chris Tanev John Carlson Zach Bogosian Paul Postma Jacob Trouba

[hockeywoot]

Yup. Probably more.

Here's the list of close to 80 d-men <25 that played regularly (I many off a few being regulars)> Of the nearly 80, Tanev is middle of the pack.

Cam Fowler Hamphus Lindholm Sami Vatanen Oliver Ekman-Larson Brandon Gormley Michael Stone Doug Hamilton Torey Krug Jake McCabe Tyler Myers Mark Pysyk Rasmus Ristolainen Nikita Zadorov Tj Brodie Tyler Wotherspoon Justin Faulk Ryan Murphy Nick Leddy David Rundblad Tyson Barrie Tim Erixon Ryan Murray David Savard Kevin Connauton Brendon Dillon Jamie Olesiak Danny Dekeyser Brian Lashoff Brendan Smith Oscar Klefbloom Justin Schultz Erik Gudbranson Dimitry Kulikov Alex Petrovic Drew Doughty Jake Muzzin Slava Voynov Jonas Brodin Matt Dumba Marco Scandella Nathan Beaulieu PK Subban Jared Tinordi Ryan Ellis Seth Jones Roman Josi Eric Gelinas Jon Merrill Ryan McDonagh John Moore Dylan McIlrath Calvin deHaan Travis Hamonic Thomas Hickey Ryan Pulock Griffin Reinhart Cody Ceci Jared Cowen Erik Karlsson Patrick Wiercicoh Michael Del Zotto Luke Schenn Simon Dupres Olli Maataa Matt Tennyson Alex Pieterangelo Kevin Shattenkirk Mark Barberio Radko Gudas Victor Hedman Andrej Sustr Jake Gardiner Morgan Reily Chris Tanev John Carlson Zach Bogosian Paul Postma Jacob Trouba

^Are all these guys NHL regulars? I suppose everyone's entitled to their opinion....

These guys, seriously?

-Thomas Hickey

-Brian Lashoff

-Mark Barberio

-Paul Postma

-David Rundblad (what is this, 2011?)

-Luke Schenn

-Kevin Connauton

-Dylan McIlrath

-Matt Tennyson

[bigbadcanucks]

^Are all these guys NHL regulars? I suppose everyone's entitled to their opinion....

These guys, seriously?

-Thomas Hickey

-Brian Lashoff

-Mark Barberio

-Paul Postma

-David Rundblad (what is this, 2011?)

-Luke Schenn

-Kevin Connauton

-Dylan McIlrath

-Matt Tennyson

Said that of the list, I'd trade Tanev for 50 of them. Also said that I wasn't completely certain about some of them being an NHL regular. The ones you listed above are the ones I wouldn't trade for. Maybe Luke Schenn. The rest you listed, no.

[aGENT]

I think its a little of both .. I think some under and some over . This is gonna be a big year for the kid . If he doesn't get mashed by huge hits he may be ok

I'd say a good 75% over rate him, and 5% under rate him. The other 10% think he's a perfectly fine, complimentary and calm top 4 D who's on the smaller side and while it's been improving lacks offensive upside. A good if unspectacular player.

[bigbadcanucks]

I'd say a good 75% over rate him, and 5% under rate him. The other 10% think he's a perfectly fine, complimentary and calm top 4 D who's on the smaller side and while it's been improving lacks offensive upside. A good if unspectacular player.

How about the remaining 10% J.R.? How do you think they rate Tanev? Undecided maybe?

I agree with you...Tanev is a good and capable d-man...but he isn't and probably won't ever be of the spectacular variety.