[Player Discussion] Corrado

[William_Clarkson]

I'll say it again, Sbisa doesn't play on the right side but is a left side D-man. He'll be competing with Stanton for a spot on the roster, while Corrado will be competing with Weber (and possibly Sanguinetti if he impresses) for the final right side spot..

Ugh, I really don't want Weber to be anything more than depth. Hasn't Hamhuis played the right side before? Maybe they should put him with Edler, stack the top pairing (as if anyone would consider that stacked).

Edler-Hamhuis

Sbisa-Tanev

Stanton-Bieksa

^If one of Sbisa or Stanton can make the jump that actually wouldn't be horrible.

[Guest Dasein]

Ugh, I really don't want Weber to be anything more than depth. Hasn't Hamhuis played the right side before? Maybe they should put him with Edler, stack the top pairing (as if anyone would consider that stacked).

Edler-Hamhuis

Sbisa-Tanev

Stanton-Bieksa

^If one of Sbisa or Stanton can make the jump that actually wouldn't be horrible.

I think they will. I think those two will make up our bottom pairing, and one of them will play the right side.

In a perfect world, Corrado is ready to take that role, but I think he needs another year (at least). He's a RHD and has all the tools (size, defensive play, some offense) to be that guy but he needs a little more polishing. For now, one of Sbisa or Stanton on the wrong side will have to do.

We're going to have to dress our best 6 defensemen regardless of how they shoot. Weber's offensive production is not enough to dress him in the top 6 over Sbisa or Stanton IMO. He doesn't have the size to compete in the West, and his offense is not at a level where it compensates for that.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

Ugh, I really don't want Weber to be anything more than depth. Hasn't Hamhuis played the right side before? Maybe they should put him with Edler, stack the top pairing (as if anyone would consider that stacked).

Edler-Hamhuis

Sbisa-Tanev

Stanton-Bieksa

^If one of Sbisa or Stanton can make the jump that actually wouldn't be horrible.

Hamhuis has played the right side in limited action. And there's some precedent for playing him with Edler.

However, there's only a total of around 300 minutes of even strength time accumulated with an Edler-Hamhuis pairing. That's basically the same amount as we've seen from Edler-Tanev.

The results have been eerily similar.

We know that Edler-Tanev have produced a good CF% (shot attempt differential or possession rate proxy) together and a very poor GF% (goal differential or +/-). And Edler's on-ice offense, in terms of shot attempts produced per minute, goes down when he plays with Tanev.

Edler-Tanev: 255:53 5v5TOI, 33.3 GF%, 54.7 CF%

With Edler-Hamhuis, it's basically the same. Good possession numbers, less total offensive attempts produced, pretty bad plus/minus results.

Edler-Hamhuis: 292:08 5v5TOI, 37.5 GF%, 52.5 CF%

The obvious caveat here is the small sample size. A career sample of less than 300 minutes of 5v5 (which represents less than 20 total games played), isn't all that good statistical evidence for anything. Certainly not enough to make a hard projection of their potential to be successful in the future.

However, it does provide an indicator. And it fits into the larger pattern we see from Edler. Edler has generally had worse than (his) average results when he's paired with a "defensive-minded" partner. And he's generally had better than (his) average results when he plays with "offensive-minded" partners (especially when with "dynamic PMDs").

Now I actually believe that both Tanev and Hamhuis have underrated puck-moving abilities and offensive skills. However, the tendency we've seen, especially when they're paired with Edler, is for them to play very conservative hockey and lock themselves into a defensive role as Edler's back-up and safety net.

My theory (based on looking at Edler's career WOWYs and a few statements Edler's made about his own game), is that Edler plays his best hockey when he's actually thinking defense and letting the offense come to him. Unfortunately, when he's paired with a "safe" player, he seems to feel a greater pressure to be the key offensive contributor on his pairing. When he has a dynamic offensive partner, he keeps his game simple, stays fairly "clean" in his own zone, and doesn't push too hard to make the offensive play. And he has thrived this way, actually producing better offense while not really trying to be a scoring sparkplug on the back end.

Ideally, I want to see Edler playing alongside an offensive-minded partner who covers tonnes of ice and is focused on driving offense. It's counter-intuitive but I believe that Edler is worse when he's "protected" by someone like Hamhuis or Tanev. It messes with his mind because he feels pressure to be an "offensive defenseman" in a primary role. He's much better as a supporting player on offense and grounding his game in the defensive fundementals. And when he plays that way, he seems to magically become an instinctive player offensively (instead of thinking about needing to produce, the scoring actually comes to him).

Long story short: we could play Edler-Hamhuis and they'd probably control the flow of play fairly well. But it's unlikely we get anywhere close to peak level production from Edler that way. Most likely, regression would improve the GF% with more minutes played, but the Corsi results suggest that Edler will always produce less offense when he's being "forced" into the offensive role on his pairing.

Strange stuff, I know.

Getting back to Corrado, I sometimes wonder if we could ever make an Edler-Corrado pairing work. Corrado would need to have the confidence in himself to take on the primary offensive role and take the puck-handling role away from Edler. I'm not sure he has it in him to do this (as I expect he'd defer to Edler). And I'm not convinced Corrado is quite good enough (at least right now) for this kind of role.

It would also be exceedingly difficult for a youngster like Corrado to actually take the puck away from a former "50 point D" like Edler (I'm talking here about seizing control of the pairing's primary puck-handling duties on transition and in the offensive zone). Unfortunately, I also don't see Edler ever getting close to 50 points again unless he finds a partner who will do just that.

[elvis15]

Yeah, but that's just talk. This is player discussion. Jeez.

Well that's a whole different basket of puppies.

...

So this:

Versus this:

[Winter Soldier]

Corrado needs to learn the basic fundamentals of an NHL Defenceman and he will learn to be one with our affiliate. Our defence is pretty much set

Hamhuis-Bieksa

Edler-Tanev

Stanton-Sbisa

He also needs to learn to be a point per game Defenceman in the AHL before he moves in with the big boys...

You must be joking.

[Plum]

Hey Plum,

You might be selling Sbisa a little short here, no? I know he hasn't lit the world on fire but he's young and was drafted with huge potential which he still has. I mean he hasn't even played a game in our jersey and you're selling him down the river already?

On Corrado, I really think it's more of a when is he going to get it and be a regular in the line-up, either at the start of the year with a great camp, middle of the year with injuries, or next year for sure.

Well who's going to play the right side? Sbisa or Stanton? I don't think any of them play well on that side if Sbisa plays like how he did last year then Weber will take his spot.

[elvis15]

...

Getting back to Corrado, I sometimes wonder if we could ever make an Edler-Corrado pairing work. Corrado would need to have the confidence in himself to take on the primary offensive role and take the puck-handling role away from Edler. I'm not sure he has it in him to do this (as I expect he'd defer to Edler). And I'm not convinced Corrado is quite good enough (at least right now) for this kind of role.

It would also be exceedingly difficult for a youngster like Corrado to actually take the puck away from a former "50 point D" like Edler (I'm talking here about seizing control of the pairing's primary puck-handling duties on transition and in the offensive zone). Unfortunately, I also don't see Edler ever getting close to 50 points again unless he finds a partner who will do just that.

Good post as usual, both the first part I omitted and the second. Out of the available right side D we have, I've always put Corrado ahead of Tanev as an Edler partner option. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like someone more there (Weber or Sanguinetti please stand up) but Tanev - and definitely not Bieksa - aren't great choices to pair with Edler.

And as far as I know, Sbisa has had only limited right side minutes (on the PP occasionally or injury coverage) and I haven't seen anything to say he'd be a more reliable option for the majority of minutes (5 on 5) than the natural right side defencemen we already have. As much as some people don't want it to be Weber or Sanguinetti, they may still be the best options we have.

[Plum]

I could see Sbisa form a shutdown pair with Bieksa if he plays to his potential.

[Canuck Surfer]

I think the best bet for the top 6 is that, but not those pairings. Hamhuis-Tanev will be our #1 PK unit pairing, but I think for even strength, we will see Hamhuis with Bieksa again and Tanev with Edler.

This is what I think our top 6 will look like as well - although I'm not sure as to who will play on their wrong side on the bottom pairing between Sbisa and Stanton yet.

I don't see Weber being deployed as a permanent solution on the bottom 6 because of our division and conference. He is of a smaller stature and while he doesn't hurt you defensively, he doesn't provide enough offensively IMO (if you look at his numbers over the years) to earn a spot.

I've personally never seen Sanguinetti play, but I've heard that he is not physical at all, despite his reasonable size.

Sbisa has experience on the right side with Anaheim. I think we'll dress the best 6 defensemen, and that might mean we will have to put a LHD (Sbisa or Stanton) on the right side. Stanton looks very poised and made smart defensive plays when healthy, and I think he may work on the right side if Sbisa can't.

In a physical Western Conference, we're going to need some size back there.

I think we will see

Hamhuis - Bieksa

Edler - Tanev

Sbisa - Stanton

Weber

PK: Hamhuis-Tanev, Edler-Bieksa/Stanton

PP: Hamhuis/Tanev-Edler, Sbisa-Bieksa

and Weber will switch in for Sbisa or Stanton (if one is struggling) or if we play smaller teams.

As for Corrado - he is close, but he could use another year in the AHL of being the go-to guy playing monster minutes. I think by next year, he will really push for the bottom pairing job. He's smart defensively, he has the size, he plays a tough game, and he can provide little bit of offense. I think he'll leap Weber by next season.

I'm personally disappointed we did not tinker more with our defence this off season. I mean, I know its not over but JB and TL have said the roster is set relative to wins the jobs from the existing roster of players.

I know Sbisa plays a harder game. But he is smaller than Garrison was. Perhaps faster. But is he better?

I guess the argument is the cap space cleared makes our defence better with Miller in net... OK, it probably does a little bit.

Last year CHI grabbed Rundblad for a 2knd rounder. (And they don't even have a locked in spot for him, he'll fight for 7th man with Clendenning and they don't have to rush either cuz they have Keith). Guys have been available. Nor did we draft any serious blue chip PMD. When are we going to get serious about our D?

I always love and cheer for our team. But I'll get a LOT more enthusiastic about our moving back into the ranks of capable contenders when we add some REAL skill on our back end. Making fundamentally sound, safe, passes on the tape across the blue line is smart but NOT exciting. A guy you cannot pressure because he blows past you up ice or into the slot every time you come near him is the weapon I want!

We desperately need a guy who is dangerous with the puck on his stick, with serious speed and junk to break down opposing teams.

[jejejester]

So this:

Versus this:

Exactly!

[William_Clarkson]

Making fundamentally sound, safe, passes on the tape across the blue line is smart but NOT exciting.

Does it really matter how exciting it is?

Maybe one player like that, but you don't want 6 defenseman like that.

[GreyHatnDart]

Does it really matter how exciting it is?

Maybe one player like that, but you don't want 6 defenseman like that.

Agreed. Especially for a D-man. 1-2 big risk big reward defenceman is plenty. The best thing about a guy like Tanev is you hardly notice him out there. He makes the smart play. Nothing flashy. That's what makes him effective.

[Guest Dasein]

I'm personally disappointed we did not tinker more with our defence this off season. I mean, I know its not over but JB and TL have said the roster is set relative to wins the jobs from the existing roster of players.

I know Sbisa plays a harder game. But he is smaller than Garrison was. Perhaps faster. But is he better?

I guess the argument is the cap space cleared makes our defence better with Miller in net... OK, it probably does a little bit.

Last year CHI grabbed Rundblad for a 2knd rounder. (And they don't even have a locked in spot for him, he'll fight for 7th man with Clendenning and they don't have to rush either cuz they have Keith). Guys have been available. Nor did we draft any serious blue chip PMD. When are we going to get serious about our D?

I always love and cheer for our team. But I'll get a LOT more enthusiastic about our moving back into the ranks of capable contenders when we add some REAL skill on our back end. Making fundamentally sound, safe, passes on the tape across the blue line is smart but NOT exciting. A guy you cannot pressure because he blows past you up ice or into the slot every time you come near him is the weapon I want!

We desperately need a guy who is dangerous with the puck on his stick, with serious speed and junk to break down opposing teams.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1724683 <= That's Chicago's HF poll on their top 20 prospects.

From the looks of it, Rundblad is at best #8, according to their fanbase. No one seems particularly excited for him. He's moved around so much for a guy that is supposedly oozing with talent. We'll see.

And we got Vey instead with a 2nd round pick - that's not too bad.

Don't blame management for not picking up a serious puck-moving PMD - a lot of it is luck most of the time or the good ones are simply off the board when we pick:

2014 - none were available at #6 worth passing on Virtanen and at #24 when we picked McCann

2013 - Nurse and Ristolainen snagged just before we picked Bo (#9) - I don't know how you feel about Bo so maybe you'd rather have Morrissey (#13) or Zadorov (#16) - At #24 we took Shinkaruk over Theodore - not sure how you feel about that either

2012 - if ever there is one year, this is the one we should have moved up (even if it meant overpaying) to grab a defenseman - Murray, Reinhart, Reilly, Lindholm, Dumba, Pouliot, Trouba, Koekkoek, Ceci and Maatta - then Gaunce at #26 - it would have been well worth it looking at where Gaunce's potential is and where some of those defensemen are

2011 - Jensen at #29 instead of Musil (#31), Clendening (#36), Harrington (#54) and Wotherspoon (#57)

I think Benning will do better than Gillis, as he is not afraid to make moves. We'll see how our depth on defense does.

[ilovekevinbieksa]

He's only 21. He's still got a lot of development to do. Let him get in the 35-50 point range and then give him a go in the NHL. Hopefully his Utica points will improve on what should be a better team than last year.

[Red Light Racicot]

I'll be cautiously optimistic, If he develops into an NHL regular I'll be ecstatic.

Our scouting staff has had a very sketchy track record over the last while, and I think we have been overrating our prospects in an almost Leaf-like fashion.

[Canuck Surfer]

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1724683 <= That's Chicago's HF poll on their top 20 prospects.

From the looks of it, Rundblad is at best #8, according to their fanbase. No one seems particularly excited for him. He's moved around so much for a guy that is supposedly oozing with talent. We'll see.

And we got Vey instead with a 2nd round pick - that's not too bad.

Don't blame management for not picking up a serious puck-moving PMD - a lot of it is luck most of the time or the good ones are simply off the board when we pick:

2014 - none were available at #6 worth passing on Virtanen and at #24 when we picked McCann

2013 - Nurse and Ristolainen snagged just before we picked Bo (#9) - I don't know how you feel about Bo so maybe you'd rather have Morrissey (#13) or Zadorov (#16) - At #24 we took Shinkaruk over Theodore - not sure how you feel about that either

2012 - if ever there is one year, this is the one we should have moved up (even if it meant overpaying) to grab a defenseman - Murray, Reinhart, Reilly, Lindholm, Dumba, Pouliot, Trouba, Koekkoek, Ceci and Maatta - then Gaunce at #26 - it would have been well worth it looking at where Gaunce's potential is and where some of those defensemen are

2011 - Jensen at #29 instead of Musil (#31), Clendening (#36), Harrington (#54) and Wotherspoon (#57)

I think Benning will do better than Gillis, as he is not afraid to make moves. We'll see how our depth on defense does.

Hey, why would Chicago guys get excited before they see him?

I had beers with some guys in the Phoenix system. They were surprised he got left behind Stone on the depth chart and was traded. Said his talent was unreal.

But point being, Chicago saw fit to grab him, even with Clendenning. Guys in Chicago have been waiting for him, and management grabbed Rundblad anyway.

FTR I'm not questioning any one move. But sooner or later we need to have this skill set on our team. As much as a solid D first (half also responding to Clarkson) is fundamental. ...

In our 45 odd year history we have had Reinhart and Ehrhoff for short stints. Lidster was pretty good, but a PMD? Kearns was before my time. Even then C EHrhoff was good but not elite. Look at the teams with a game breaker on their backend?

Their all favorites for the cup every year...

All I'm saying is there needs to come a day when we place some priority on acquiring this type of skill set into our team.

[OncebeforeIdie]

&nbsp;

Given the Canucks history of Dmen injuries, as the 7th Dman I expect to see Corrado get alot of NHL minutes this year. He is by far our most NHL ready prospect, showed he is a capable NHLer in his short time up here and looked good in Jr. almost making Canada's WJ team. I have high hopes for this kid and think his ceiling is even higher than Tanev's.

&nbsp;

I have to agree about the injuries. The question should really be how many games will the 7th, 8th, and even 9th D-men get each when the back end start dropping like flies. Corrado will see some action with the big club for sure this year and I am sure he will continue to develop into a solid D-man. As for having a higher ceiling than Tanev...not so sure about that. Tanev is still getting better and may still have huge upside as he gets stronger and gets more minutes to work with.

[Ray_Cathode]

Part three of player discusson so franky corrado is 21 years old has played in 18 nhl games, 3 in the short season and 15 last year and 4 playoff games against the sharks. His points totals are low but has not shown to be a offensive guy. His plus side has allways bin to be a steady guy. Ive compaered him to chris tanev. He also shoots right and is a calm smart defenseman. Right now are defence looks like

Hamuis Tanev

Edler Sbisa

Stanton Bieksa

Leaving both weber and Corrado out looking in. Whats the chances people think hes got now? Is 21 years old but i think he plays an older more experenced game. Looks tough getting in that lineup so whats the solution? A nother year to ahl or could stanton be the number 7? Its tough to make that desision and also dont know whats to happen at traneing camp in september.

The solution for Corrado is: outplay one of the guys you have in your top six. Other than that there are the inevitable injuries - then he only has to outplay Weber (or Sanguinetti, if he also makes a strong push to make the team).

[Pete M]

We need a shutdown pairing...to play against the big boys.

Corrado won't help with this obvious deficiency in our "D" core.

[JamesB]

Expecting him to be in Utica for the entire season to round out his game.

Hamhuis-Bieksa

Edler-Tanev

Sbisa-Stanton

Along with a lot of others I see this as the likeliest D set-up to start the year, with Weber as #7. I am not sure Corrado is first call-up. I think Sanguinetti slots in ahead of Corrado. Sanguinetti might even move ahead of Weber and make the team out of training camp. He is bigger than Corrado and has already shown himself to be a high-scoring D at the AHL level. And that was 2 and 3 years ago. And he has already shown more in the NHL than Corrado or Weber. At Age 26 he should continue to improve and could well be NHL ready.

Corrado surprised a lot people early -- almost making the Canada world juniors and playing decent hockey for the Canucks in a protected third pairing role for a small number of games. The problem with Corrado is that he does not have the size and physical game coaches like from a defensive D (and that Benning obviously prefers), and he has shown very little offensive upside so far. He is behind Tanev on both dimensions and I am not sure Benning is even sold on Tanev, although Tanev will start the season in the top 4, probably paired with Edler.

Maybe he is bigger this year and maybe he can develop his offensive game. But right now I would say he needs to show more than he has at the AHL level before he can expect a call-up.