On a positive note: I like the way Baertschi continues to develop

[ForsbergTheGreat]

24 minutes ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

You'd have to be pretty delusional to think that Bartchi still has star potential.  After this many pro seasons he's shown multiple NHL teams nothing.

 

Vey 2.0

Anyone writing a 23 year off with a .42 ppg in his first 89 games is likely 15 years old or just has the patience of one.  I bet you were saying the same thing about Henrik Sedin.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

10 minutes ago, snipes2539 said:

And by multiple teams, you mean...two.  

He may be never be a superstar, he may fade in to oblivion, or he may be like Grabner who just needed to travel the league a bit and work his issues out before becoming the player that he is now.

I remember when everyone was calling Grabner a bust and people were more upset at losing the pick in that Ballard trade, and then a year after when he eventually wound up on the Islanders and started ripping it up, everyone was saying what a dumb trade that was for Ballard. 

Until a player's career is actually over, you just don't know when or if things will click for them.  I still believe that Baertschi will develop in to a solid 2nd/3rd line player, he's just too afraid to make mistakes right now because he's on a 1 year deal and isn't really afforded any opportunity to play to his strengths which involve creative offensive plays that sometimes turn the puck over.  He'll work it out eventually, but like some other players before him, I got a sinking feeling that we won't see it happen here unless he's given a bit more slack on his leash.

A better example is Martin St.Louis.  A pure skill player that once he got some confidence and trust from a coach tore the league apart. 

[TOMapleLaughs]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Anyone writing a 23 year off with a .42 ppg in his first 89 games is likely 15 years old or just has the patience of one.  I bet you were saying the same thing about Henrik Sedin.

Of course not, on account Henrik oozed of offensive potential and didn't fall down every shift.

Just wondering if it's 'hidden fancy stats' that make people think Bartshi has star potential?  Or what?  Because unless there's a eureka moment coming like Bartchi says, and he miraculously figures it out, that isn't coming.

At most we may see a Kassian-like late-season run while the team is out of it.  Yay.

[spook007]

35 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

To some extent yes, that’s what he should do.  There is a difference in how you treat pure skill players.  They aren’t the lunch box type that puts on their hard hats and goes to work.  Hockey has to be fun, They have natural talent and ability that needs to be to giving opportunity.  There is a reason why Baertschi put up 95 in 47games in junior.  There is a reason why as soon as he went back to Green in the AHL his confidence came back and he went back to being a ppg.  Development isn’t all about the players themselves.  and development is not the same for two way players as it is grinders vs skilled players.  All types need to be treated differently.  As long as there is still structure in his game, let him have fun playing the sport.  The message that sends to the other rookies is that WD has their development in his interest, that’s what a transition year is all about.  We already know what Higgins and Vbrata bring to the team. It’s time to find out what the youth can bring.  You can’t find out without loosening the grip.

Right now when I see Sven I see a player afraid to make mistakes.  I see a player that is overthinking the game, and that’s usually caused from being in a point slump and not getting the bounces.  He needs to simplify his game, rely on his own instincts, and not be afraid to make mistakes.  That also relies on the coach.  That’s why the best thing that WD could do for him right now would be to give Sven the reigns,  tell Sven he’s going in for 15-25 games straight with plenty of offensive opportunity (pp time, regular shifts, like minded line mates, and offensive zone starts).  If he makes a mistake, he’s not going to get benched or pulled from the lineup.  Let him go out there, have fun and enjoy the game.

But the best thing for Sven isn’t necessary the best thing for the canucks in the short run.  In the long run, getting Sven’s confidence up and developing him to become an effective NHLer is important for this team.  But in the short run, we may not be getting as much from this team as we possibly can.  This puts WD in a tough situation as he’s hired to win and if he doesn’t, he won’t be working long in the NHL.

An example another long vs short term dilemma, is Higgins being in line up over Gaunce.  As of today, Higgins is more effective than Gaunce,  Higgins increases canucks changes to win compared to what Gaunce brings.  But is keeping Higgins in the lineup for the next two years (the remainder of his contract) over a player like Gaunce, what’s best for Gaunce’s long term development?

This is just it... Vision...Develop players WD, but win at the same time...

The play of McCann has made it harder for a lot of players... As management wants a blend of Vets and Youngsters, and there is only so many spot available

As you rightly state in 2 years time, it might have been beneficial to have kept Gaunce in the line up over Higgens.

Like wise with both Sven and Jake, but in all likely hood the team wouldn't win many games, if this was the case. And then you wouldn't be getting the winning mentality, they're hoping to develop the youngsters in.... And WD would likely be looking for a new job...

The egg v hen argument springs to mind.

[snipes2539]

10 minutes ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

Grabner has 0 goals and 2 assists in 20gp so far this season.  Yikes.  Even for him that's horrendous.

So you're going to sample a rough start to undermine what he's done in previous seasons?  You're a glass half empty kinda person aren't ya? lol

Players will go through ups and downs, but their downs aren't a clear measure of their worth, neither are their ups.  Baertschi will eventually work things out or he won't.  I'm of the belief that he will because there are some plays that's he's made where you can really see his skill come out, he's just lacking the confidence and consistency (and opportunity) to use it frequently.  But other positives to take away is that he's still willing to do good things away from the puck too.  He's shown improvement on the back-check, he's blocking shots, and he's making safe plays up the boards when he needs to, if I wasn't seeing those adjustments away from the puck, I'd probably be less optimistic, but since I am seeing those things it gives me good reason to believe he's on the right track.

[TOMapleLaughs]

2 minutes ago, snipes2539 said:

So you're going to sample a rough start to undermine what he's done in previous seasons?  You're a glass half empty kinda person aren't ya? lol

Players will go through ups and downs, but their downs aren't a clear measure of their worth, neither are their ups.  Baertschi will eventually work things out or he won't.  I'm of the belief that he will because there are some plays that's he's made where you can really see his skill come out, he's just lacking the confidence and consistency (and opportunity) to use it frequently.  But other positives to take away is that he's still willing to do good things away from the puck too.  He's shown improvement on the back-check, he's blocking shots, and he's making safe plays up the boards when he needs to, if I wasn't seeing those adjustments away from the puck, I'd probably be less optimistic, but since I am seeing those things it gives me good reason to believe he's on the right track.

fwiw I would have traded Raymond and kept Grabner.  Made sense at the time, but it wouldn't have changed our fortunes in 2011 unless we used cap savings on something useful.

 

Calgary's been waiting forever for Bartshi to show something and now it's our turn.  He'll be leapfrogged by another prospect and then will probably be dumped. Apparently we have to cycle through some projects during Benning's tenure and go through this cycle in which the same people claim he has mythical upside based on non-meaningful stats.

 

[Alflives]

12 minutes ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

Of course not, on account Henrik oozed of offensive potential and didn't fall down every shift.

Just wondering if it's 'hidden fancy stats' that make people think Bartshi has star potential?  Or what?  Because unless there's a eureka moment coming like Bartchi says, and he miraculously figures it out, that isn't coming.

At most we may see a Kassian-like late-season run while the team is out of it.  Yay.

When Henrik was young, along with Daniel, they were nick named the "sisters", albeit by an asinine reporter.  They were tagged as such, because they were knocked off their skates a lot.  I'm not a Baer defender, in fact I believe it was a waiste of a second to get him, but I do believe the Sedin comparison could be a close rhyme.

[snipes2539]

1 minute ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

fwiw I would have traded Raymond and kept Grabner.  Made sense at the time, but it wouldn't have changed our fortunes in 2011 unless we used cap savings on something useful.

 

Calgary's been waiting forever for Bartshi to show something and now it's our turn.  He'll be leapfrogged by another prospect and then will probably be dumped. Apparently we have to cycle through some projects during Benning's tenure and go through this cycle in which the same people claim he has mythical upside based on non-meaningful stats.

 

Lol I agree about the Raymond comment, I hated that guy.  But he was one of AV's faves (tho he'd never admit it).  Well in Calgary his time was done when Hartley arrived, Baertschi was starting to show some serious promise offensively, but he just couldn't adapt to the defensive system that Hartley brought in.  That's why i'm optimistic, because I think that was a good lesson for Baertschi that he can't just be a one way player, he's gotta develop other aspects of his game and he's shown some improvement there, still a long way to go, but he'll get there, just don't think it'll happen with the Canucks..unfortunately.

[Bang Bang Boogie]

25 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

A better example is Martin St.Louis.  A pure skill player that once he got some confidence and trust from a coach tore the league apart. 

Their skill set is similar, but St. Louis played with heart and intensity that I have not seen from Baertschi yet.

[TOMapleLaughs]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

When Henrik was young, along with Daniel, they were nick named the "sisters", albeit by an asinine reporter.  They were tagged as such, because they were knocked off their skates a lot.  I'm not a Baer defender, in fact I believe it was a waiste of a second to get him, but I do believe the Sedin comparison could be a close rhyme.

I'd be more onboard with the comparison if it was a total comparison, and not just a flopping comparison.  Bartshi isn't even in the same offensive universe as the Sedins.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

I'd be more onboard with the comparison if it was a total comparison, and not just a flopping comparison.  Bartshi isn't even in the same offensive universe as the Sedins.

Yup.  I agree with that.  the Twins are HHOF first ballot inductees.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

22 minutes ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

fwiw I would have traded Raymond and kept Grabner.  Made sense at the time, but it wouldn't have changed our fortunes in 2011 unless we used cap savings on something useful.

 

Calgary's been waiting forever for Bartshi to show something and now it's our turn.  He'll be leapfrogged by another prospect and then will probably be dumped. Apparently we have to cycle through some projects during Benning's tenure and go through this cycle in which the same people claim he has mythical upside based on non-meaningful stats.

 

Henrik Sedin was weak on the puck, they weren’t coined the sisters because of their strength early in their careers.  Baertschi also oozes offensive potential.  Perhaps you didn’t watch him in junior, setting the league on fire, or even with the comets last year.  Perhaps you don’t see the smart IQ plays that he makes looks so simple (very Sedin like). 

You also keep throwing Calgary in.  “Calgary waited forever”  You mean they rushed a 19 year old with the hopes that he would be their next Iginla.  The amount of pressure they put on a 19 year old to take over the offense was unreasonable.  They broke his confidence but continued to push him, only to demote him further and further.  Finally Baertschi got fed up and forced a trade.  Calgary didn’t want to give up on him but knew they didn’t have a choice as he has the option to going back to europe.  It’s also why burke was disappointed when all they got back for him was a 2^nd round pick, from a division rival. 

It’s a very similar situation to Markstrom, highly touted, highly talented player that was rushed into the league. When it didn’t go well, a change was needed and the confidence needed to be rebuilt.  The skill is still there but some proper development is a must. 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Henrik Sedin was weak on the puck, they weren’t coined the sisters because of their strength early in their careers.  Baertschi also oozes offensive potential.  Perhaps you didn’t watch him in junior, setting the league on fire, or even with the comets last year.  Perhaps you don’t see the smart IQ plays that he makes looks so simple (very Sedin like). 

You also keep throwing Calgary in.  “Calgary waited forever”  You mean they rushed a 19 year old with the hopes that he would be their next Iginla.  The amount of pressure they put on a 19 year old to take over the offense was unreasonable.  They broke his confidence but continued to push him, only to demote him further and further.  Finally Baertschi got fed up and forced a trade.  Calgary didn’t want to give up on him but knew they didn’t have a choice as he has the option to going back to europe.  It’s also why burke was disappointed when all they got back for him was a 2^nd round pick, from a division rival. 

It’s a very similar situation to Markstrom, highly touted, highly talented player that was rushed into the league. When it didn’t go well, a change was needed and the confidence needed to be rebuilt.  The skill is still there but some proper development is a must. 

Didn't Baer get a few games at 18, and score like crazy?  He was super hot then.

[TOMapleLaughs]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Henrik Sedin was weak on the puck, they weren’t coined the sisters because of their strength early in their careers.  Baertschi also oozes offensive potential.  Perhaps you didn’t watch him in junior, setting the league on fire, or even with the comets last year.  Perhaps you don’t see the smart IQ plays that he makes looks so simple (very Sedin like). 

You also keep throwing Calgary in.  “Calgary waited forever”  You mean they rushed a 19 year old with the hopes that he would be their next Iginla.  The amount of pressure they put on a 19 year old to take over the offense was unreasonable.  They broke his confidence but continued to push him, only to demote him further and further.  Finally Baertschi got fed up and forced a trade.  Calgary didn’t want to give up on him but knew they didn’t have a choice as he has the option to going back to europe.  It’s also why burke was disappointed when all they got back for him was a 2^nd round pick, from a division rival. 

It’s a very similar situation to Markstrom, highly touted, highly talented player that was rushed into the league. When it didn’t go well, a change was needed and the confidence needed to be rebuilt.  The skill is still there but some proper development is a must. 

The Sedins stepped into the NHL and performed right away.  Years and years later, Bartshi hasn't even earned a regular spot.  That's where the comparison comes to an end.

We should downgrade comparisons to the ho-hum skill-type players we've seen come and go here.  Grabner, minus the speed.  Or Linden Vey 2.0 seems more appropriate.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

19 minutes ago, snipes2539 said:

Lol I agree about the Raymond comment, I hated that guy.  But he was one of AV's faves (tho he'd never admit it).  Well in Calgary his time was done when Hartley arrived, Baertschi was starting to show some serious promise offensively, but he just couldn't adapt to the defensive system that Hartley brought in.  That's why i'm optimistic, because I think that was a good lesson for Baertschi that he can't just be a one way player, he's gotta develop other aspects of his game and he's shown some improvement there, still a long way to go, but he'll get there, just don't think it'll happen with the Canucks..unfortunately.

Me too, the only reason he made it to the NHL was because his junior line mate was an allstar.  .

 

As for Baertschi.  I think he will get there as a canucks.  As long as he doesn't lose his enjoyment in the game.  I do think a coach willing to work with his would be better but WD will try.  After when he ran out of things with Kassian he did go out of the way to call up Kassian's old coach and see what he could do.  The good think for Baertschi is his old junior is only a stone throw away in Utica,

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Didn't Baer get a few games at 18, and score like crazy?  He was super hot then.

3 goals in 5 games.  It probably hurt him the most out of anything.  The next year the fans expected him to come in a win the calder and score 40

[ForsbergTheGreat]

7 minutes ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

The Sedins stepped into the NHL and performed right away.  Years and years later, Bartshi hasn't even earned a regular spot.  That's where the comparison comes to an end.

We should downgrade comparisons to the ho-hum skill-type players we've seen come and go here.  Grabner, minus the speed.  Or Linden Vey 2.0 seems more appropriate.

No they didn't, did you watch hockey back then.  They were so inconsistent and often were invisible on the ice most nights.  They even contemplated going back to Sweden after things weren't going that good from them. 

[TOMapleLaughs]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

No they didn't, did you watch hockey back then.  They were so inconsistent and often were invisible on the ice most nights.  They even contemplated going back to Sweden after things were going that good from them. 

Oh i'm sorry, I'm referring to actual statistics.  82gp and 29pts for Henrik.  75gp and 34pts for Daniel.  These aren't numbers to sneeze at for 19yr old lightweights.  It's plain as day that they were legitimately skilled, so please, maybe let's dispense with the non-quantifiable arguments.

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, TOMapleLaughs said:

The Sedins stepped into the NHL and performed right away.  Years and years later, Bartshi hasn't even earned a regular spot.  That's where the comparison comes to an end.

We should downgrade comparisons to the ho-hum skill-type players we've seen come and go here.  Grabner, minus the speed.  Or Linden Vey 2.0 seems more appropriate.

 No they didn't. 

[TOMapleLaughs]

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 No they didn't. 

Performed at an adequate level?  Yes.  They did.

Remember, the comparison is to Bartshi, not Gretzky.