Brandon Sutter | #20 | C

[Borvat]

I'm not disparaging what Sutter can bring if and when healthy.  But I think if they can get a decent return at the draft they should trade him.  Some picks especially in the second (I know) or third round would be useful and I am hopeful Gaudette will be prepared next year to step in that slot. Time to give some more responsibility and opportunity to the young guys.

 

Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen  - could be a nice third line. 

Motte - Beagle - MacEwen 

 

The Eriksson effect lingers.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Borvat

[Gurn]

17 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

yah right...   foundational - really ?

 

Without Sutter doing his job Horvat would be in that role. Is that what you wanted?

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Borvat said:

I'm not disparaging what Sutter can bring if and when healthy.  But I think if they can get a decent return at the draft they should trade him.  Some picks in the second (I know) or third round could be useful and I am hopeful Gaudette will be prepared next year to step in that slot. Time to give some more responsibility and opportunity to the young guys.

 

Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen  - could be a nice third line. 

Motte - Beagle - MacEwen

Roster spot, perhaps. Role, unlikely.

 

All that's likely to mean is that Gaudette will be C'ing a depth 'offensive' line and the shut down/match up duties will fall on Beagle (as they are now) and Horvat (as they do with Sutter out). 

 

That's fine if that's what we do, but people should be prepared for less offensive contribution (and perhaps more injuries as well) to Horvat.

Edited March 5, 2019 by aGENT

[Borvat]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Roster spot, perhaps. Role, unlikely.

 

All that's likely to mean is that Gaudette will be C'ing a depth 'offensive' line and the shut down/match up duties will fall on Beagle (as they are now) and Horvat (as they do with Sutter out). 

Seems the new NHL is trending more to 3 offensive lines rather than the traditional 3rd shutdown line and 4th grind out the minutes line. 

 

If you have a third line comprised of players that can skate and produce offence like I noted maybe they won't be trapped in the D zone and can actually create some scoring chances. 

 

Sutter and Eriksson don't give other teams much to worry about.  Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen could.  

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, Borvat said:

Seems the new NHL is trending more to 3 offensive lines rather than the traditional 3rd shutdown line and 4th grind out the minutes line. 

 

If you have a third line comprised of players that can skate and produce offence like I noted maybe they won't be trapped in the D zone and can actually create some scoring chances. 

 

Sutter and Eriksson don't give other teams much to worry about.  Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen could.  

Don't disagree.

 

Do however disagree that we currently have the personnel to do so. Now that may very well change over the summer... but as of right now, we have two match up lines for many clear and distinct reasons IMO.

Edited March 5, 2019 by aGENT

[Borvat]

10 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Don't disagree.

 

Do however disagree that we currently have the personnel to do so. Now that may very well change over the summer... but as of right now, we have two match up lines for many clear and distinct reasons IMO.

I would rather have a line that has speed and can create than one that is solely one dimensional focused on just getting the puck out.  Faceoff % isn't the only measurement if you don't have the skill to do anything other than bank it of the glass (hopefully not lose it) and change.  Possession is the new NHL for good teams.  

 

This team will look different after the summer (I hope to heck) and I don't think Sutter - Eriksson - Granlund is a 3rd line that provides much to offer.  That is actually a 4th line in the new NHL without any size.  

Edited March 6, 2019 by Borvat

[aGENT]

18 minutes ago, Borvat said:

I would rather have a line that has speed and can create than one that is solely one dimensional focused on just getting the puck out.  Faceoff % isn't the only measurement if you don't have the skill to do anything other than bank it of the glass (hopefully not lose it) and change.  Possession is the new NHL for good teams.  

 

This team will look different after the summer (I hope to heck) and I don't think Sutter - Eriksson - Granlund is a 3rd line that provides much to offer.  That is actually a 4th line in the new NHL without any size.  

Sure, but again, you need the personnel to actually do that.

 

And that 'one dimension' is what allows the offensive zone starts and easier minutes to Pettersson and Horvat's lines so that they can 'create with speed and have puck possession' like you (we all) want. Look at how their output has plummeted with Sutter (and Edler and Tanev) out. That's not a coincidence. People can't act like the two aren't connected...

 

Until they have more/better wingers to work with and Pettersson in particular (and his 70% O zone starts) have more size and experience to not require so much sheltering, I don't see that drastically changing.

 

Now say we win the lotto this summer, draft Kakko 2nd overall and add a key piece or two via UFA while moving out some of our excess depth in the middle pairs on D/middle lines at F for some upgrades and EP comes in next fall stronger and more savvy...then maybe we have a different story next fall.

 

Those things (or something like them) need to actually happen first though.

Edited March 6, 2019 by aGENT

[Borvat]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Sure, but again, you need the personnel to actually do that.

 

And that 'one dimension' is what allows the offensive zone starts and easier minutes to Pettersson and Horvat's lines so that they can 'create with speed and have puck possession' like you (we all) want. Look at how their output has plummeted with Sutter (and Edler and Tanev) out. That's not a coincidence. People can't act like the two aren't connected...

 

Until they have more/better wingers to work with and Pettersson in particular (and his 70% O zone starts) have more size and experience to not require so much sheltering, I don't see that drastically changing.

 

Now say we win the lotto this summer, draft Kakko 2nd overall and add a key piece or two via UFA while moving out some of our excess depth in the middle pairs on D/middle lines at F for some upgrades and EP comes in next fall stronger and more savvy...then maybe we have a different story next fall.

 

Those things (or something like them) need to actually happen first though.

How do better wingers for Petterson dictate who plays on the third and fourth line?  Petterson will most likely always receive the prime O zone starts no matter what.  He is the 1st line center at this point and most skilled.  Which personnel are we currently missing in my scenario that would play top six in any event?

 

Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen  - could be a nice third line. 

Motte - Beagle - MacEwen 

 

Here are Sutter's stats over the past 2 seasons:

 

 

They don't indicate dominant face off prowess.  I would think Gaudette could manage to attain those numbers given the opportunity to learn from experience and coaching.  Maybe Gaudette, Beagle and Malhotra need to spend some time together this summer.  I would rather have a line that has speed and can create than one that is solely one dimensional focused on just getting the puck out.

 

Here are Beagles:

 

 

 

Edler and Tanev shouldn't be included in your comparison. The whole team struggles when they are out (Sutter and Gaudette included) and it's not related to the discussion regarding Sutter vs Gaudette in my opinion. 

[aGENT]

12 minutes ago, Borvat said:

How do better wingers for Petterson dictate who plays on the third and fourth line?  Petterson will most likely always receive the prime O zone starts no matter what.  He is the 1st line center at this point and most skilled.  Which personnel are we currently missing in my scenario that would play top six in any event?

 

Roussel - Gaudette - Virtanen  - could be a nice third line. 

Motte - Beagle - MacEwen 

 

Here are Sutter's stats over the past 2 seasons:

 

 

They don't indicate dominant face off prowess.  I would think Gaudette could manage to attain those numbers given the opportunity to learn from experience and coaching.  Maybe Gaudette, Beagle and Malhotra need to spend some time together this summer.  I would rather have a line that has speed and can create than one that is solely one dimensional focused on just getting the puck out.

 

Here are Beagles:

 

 

 

Edler and Tanev shouldn't be included in your comparison. The whole team struggles when they are out (Sutter and Gaudette included) and it's not related to the discussion regarding Sutter vs Gaudette in my opinion. 

How don't they? Better wingers in the top 6 means the sub par guys we're playing there now shuffle down where they belong to the bottom 6 and make it better. It also means better line mates in the top 6 that equally need less sheltering, particularly at a rate lower than 70%.

 

Nobody is suggesting EP should play less than 50% Oz starts. That's not what this is about.

 

Nor is it that we have capable personnel for this type of third line. We don't have the capable personnel for the top 6 is the problem. Yet anyway.

 

Quoting Sutter's FO% this year, dealing with a separated shoulder and hernia probably isn't fair, agreed?  Historically, healthy, he's over 50%.

 

Why shouldn't it? Tanev especially plays a very similar defensive and sheltering role as Sutter, but on defense. Edler does as well but he adds a lot of other elements on top of simply defensive sheltering (and some people want to let him walk ).

 

 

[Borvat]

26 minutes ago, aGENT said:

How don't they? Better wingers in the top 6 means the sub par guys we're playing there now shuffle down where they belong to the bottom 6 and make it better. It also means better line mates in the top 6 that equally need less sheltering, particularly at a rate lower than 70%.

 

Nobody is suggesting EP should play less than 50% Oz starts. That's not what this is about.

 

Nor is it that we have capable personnel for this type of third line. We don't have the capable personnel for the top 6 is the problem. Yet anyway.

 

Quoting Sutter's FO% this year, dealing with a separated shoulder and hernia probably isn't fair, agreed?  Historically, healthy, he's over 50%.

 

Why shouldn't it? Tanev especially plays a very similar defensive and sheltering role as Sutter, but on defense. Edler does as well but he adds a lot of other elements on top of simply defensive sheltering (and some people want to let him walk ).

 

 

Yes we need better top six wingers. Better wingers in the top six means Sutter is better than Gaudette because other wingers move down? 

 

As I said none of the players I mention will play top six now let alone later so ........  I quoted Sutters last 2 years.  He hasn't been overly impressive.  If anything Greene leans on Sutter because it's the safe option, not necessarily the best in my opinion any longer.  He has probably averaged 50% over his career. 

 

Gaudette will be 23 when the season starts.  He's not a kid anymore.  Look how Stecher and Hutton have flourished with some extra responsibility.  Good players rise to the occasion given the opportunity (Horvat etc).  There is becoming a perception (real or not) that some of the young players aren't getting a fair shake or opportunity for growth.

 

Both Tanev and Edler make a difference, whether Sutter or Gaudette are playing 3rd line Center.  I am talking about offense more than defense in our bottom six.  This team needs to progress and become more creative offensively - top six and bottom six.  I believe Gaudette offers that potential given the opportunity. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Borvat

[Kanukfanatic]

Sutter is injury prone and has not provided much to this team for his expensive contract.

 

At the beginning of the year I was on board the "letz keep Sutter so he takes the hard match ups" train. But he barely does that anymore.  What do the advanced stats say about him? Because the eye test shows him doing poorly.

 

Time to ship this guy out if it is even possible this summer. Not sure who should replace him but some guy making 1.2 million should do it. Beagle can work the hard matchups. See if they can get a cheaper 'sutter' that doesn't have that last name and we should be ok. He is way overpaid for what he has provided the last couple years. I don't even care what aquaman spends cuz it ain't my money. But nothing about this Canuck/sutter situation seems to indicate they should keep him any longer.

 

Those advocating otherwise are strong Canuck homers, which isn't always a bad thing. But in this case they have lost the narrative on what should be important to this team.

[kingofsurrey]

3 hours ago, gurn said:

Without Sutter doing his job Horvat would be in that role. Is that what you wanted?

For our weak team this year......makeup...... this is the foundation Sutter provides..

Lip Stick   on a pig.....

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by kingofsurrey

[Gurn]

3 hours ago, gurn said:

Without Sutter doing his job Horvat would be in that role. Is that what you wanted?

 

[aGENT]

30 minutes ago, Borvat said:

Yes we need better top six wingers. Better wingers in the top six means Sutter is better than Gaudette because other wingers move down? 

 

As I said none of the players I mention will play top six now let alone later so ........  I quoted Sutters last 2 years.  He hasn't been overly impressive.  If anything Greene leans on Sutter because it's the safe option, not necessarily the best in my opinion any longer.  He has probably averaged 50% over his career. 

 

Gaudette will be 23 when the season starts.  He's not a kid anymore.  Look how Stecher and Hutton have flourished with some extra responsibility.  Good players rise to the occasion given the opportunity (Horvat etc).  There is becoming a perception (real or not) that some of the young players aren't getting a fair shake or opportunity for growth.

 

Both Tanev and Edler make a difference, whether Sutter or Gaudette are playing 3rd line Center.  I am talking about offense more than defense in our bottom six.  This team needs to progress and become more creative offensively - top six and bottom six.  I believe Gaudette offers that potential given the opportunity. 

 

 

 

 

No, it means Sutter is no longer required to shelter the top 6 and we can focus that lineup spot and minutes, elsewhere. We're not there yet. Maybe we will be after this summer *crosses fingers*

 

Healthy, he's over 50%.

 

This isn't particularly about Gaudette. He's not in competition with Sutter's current role.

 

They make a difference on D, he makes a difference at forward. Without him, Horvat gets relied on in that role and it reduces his offensive output and also makes us basically a one line offensive team and Pettersson more easily shut down. Hence the scoring slump he/the team are presently in. This isn't rocket dentistry.

 

I agree with the last bit. But again, you need the proper framework around Gaudette for that to be successful. We're not there yet. Maybe we will be after this summer.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by aGENT

[The Great Canucks]

The people trashing Sutter really are god damned stupid. I doubt it's a coincidence that our two major losing streaks this season happened once Sutter was out. He is so underrated it's ridiculous.

[shazzam]

8 minutes ago, The Great Canucks said:

The people trashing Sutter really are god damned stupid. I doubt it's a coincidence that our two major losing streaks this season happened once Sutter was out. He is so underrated it's ridiculous.

Basically increases Horvat's defensive workload and now he's burned out.

[Borvat]

30 minutes ago, aGENT said:

No, it means Sutter is no longer required to shelter the top 6 and we can focus that lineup spot and minutes, elsewhere. We're not there yet. Maybe we will be after this summer *crosses fingers*

 

Healthy, he's over 50%.

 

This isn't particularly about Gaudette. He's not in competition with Sutter's current role.

 

They make a difference on D, he makes a difference at forward. Without him, Horvat gets relied on in that role and it reduces his offensive output and also makes us basically a one line offensive team and Pettersson more easily shut down. Hence the scoring slump we/the team are presently in. This isn't rocket dentistry.

 

I agree with the last bit. But again, you need the proper framework around Gaudette for that to be successful. We're not there yet. Maybe we will be after this summer.

 

 

Is Gaudette not touted/promoted as a third line center?  So when does he get the opportunity?  Your comments about a one line team support my commentary about the need for more offensive output.  Sutter will not provide that.  The scoring slump is not because Sutter was out. It's because the Canucks don't have enough offense and Edler and Tanev were out.

 

Brad Richardson at $1.25MM / year has had a better face off percentage and we had him.  I believe Sutter has been hyped too much - not his fault he's a good defensive player.  I believe it is over sold based on the need to not look bad for the deal including Nick Bonino and a second rounder for Sutter and a third rounder and a 5 year $4.375MM contract with a NTC. 

 

Brandon Sutter:

 

 

Brad Richardson:

 

Nick Bonino:

Edited March 6, 2019 by Borvat

[aGENT]

18 minutes ago, Borvat said:

Is Gaudette not touted/promoted as a third line center?  So when does he get the opportunity?  Your comments about a one line team support my commentary about the need for more offensive output.  Sutter will not provide that.  The scoring slump is not because Sutter was out. It's because the Canucks don't have enough offense and Edler and Tanev were out.

 

Brad Richardson at $1.25MM / year has had a better face off percentage and we had him.  I beliive Sutter has been hyped too much - not his fault he's a good defensive player.  I believe it is over sold based on the need to not look bad for the deal including Nick Bonino and a second rounder for Sutter and a third rounder and a 5 year $4.375MM contract with a NTC. 

 

Brandon Sutter:

 

 

 

Brad Richardson:

You'll not get me to say one bad thing about Richardson. Hell of a player (of a similar vein to Sutter). Even own him in fantasy.

 

'Third line centre' may be the same roster spot, but it's most certainly a different role than what Sutter currently performs. Gaudette can't handle the shut down/PK/match up minutes Sutter performs. Presently that falls to Horvat without Sutter.

 

Yes, EVENTUALLY that would likely be the plan with Gaudette. But until we have a top 6 that doesn't require as extreme sheltering, the math simply doesn't add up. It's a team sport. You can't just look at the individual parts. You have to view them how they fit in the entire team. Right now we need a Sutter shaped cog. In the not too distant future we likely won't. We're not there yet.

 

Perhaps if you viewed it as that I agree with your general premise, but not your time line

 

We don't have enough offense because Sutter is out and unable to provide the offensive opportunities to EP/Horvat. And they're not ready/supported enough to do it on their own.

Edited March 6, 2019 by aGENT

[Alflives]

Clearly Hickey Gaud is now better than Sutter.  Trade Sutter some time from summer 2019 to TDL 2020.  Sooner the better.  Maybe package him up with Tanev?  Stecher is looking like a better player than Tanev now.  

[Borvat]

Just now, aGENT said:

You'll not get me to say one bad thing about Richardson. Hell of a player (of a similar vein to Sutter). Even own him in fantasy.

 

'Third line centre' may be the same roster spot, but it's most certainly a different role than what Sutter currently performs. Gaudette can't handle the shut down/PK/match up minutes Sutter performs. Presently that falls to Horvat without Sutter.

 

Yes, EVENTUALLY that would likely be the plan with Gaudette. But until we have a top 6 that doesn't require as extreme sheltering, the math simply doesn't add up. It's a team sport. You can't just look at the individual parts. You have to view them how they fit in the entire team. Right now we need a Sutter shaped cog. In the not too distant future we likely won't. We're not there yet.

 

Perhaps if you viewed it as that I agree with your general premise, but not your time line

 

We don't have enough offense because Sutter is out and unable to provide the offensive opportunities to EP/Horvat.

I agree your version of a third line center isn't quite like mine or what appears to be the trend in the NHL.  

 

I just think that a team in transition with good young players earning/needing the experience and opportunity, challenged for offense while at the same time the veteran appears to be breaking down and that we may be able to recoup some of his value. That is my time line.  I have seen this rodeo before. Nothing against Sutter.

 

I am done and we won't change each others versions of what we see.   Have a good one.