Cannot Mis-Management Review.

[kingofsurrey]

10 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Granlund is a solid two way player Shinkaruk is not. He's also not a good enough offensive player to offset the lack of two way play. Like I said career AHLer. Just another Jason Krog.

Be careful. Shinky was plus 10 this year in the AHL......

[canuck73_3]

3 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Be careful. Shinky was plus 10 this year in the AHL......

+/- has very little to do with actual defensive play. 

 

You could get a +just for coming off the bench at the right time or get a minus do to someone else's careless line change. 

[The Lock]

On 2017-04-20 at 2:52 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

So create a factual topic thread then. List all the things that have made the team more of cup.....playoff contender, the trades that are proven winners not "hopeful" winners and how any of these trades are good for playoff competition, how well the cap has been managed, how the very top UFA's are coming here to take discounts, how good the coach is/was/going to be.

 

All your rhetoric is filled with, could be, will be, in the future, if and very little to do with today's reality or immediate issues surrounding this group.

All you are doing in your request is to request things that cannot be put into facts, yet wanting it to be "factual". You might as well be asking for facts on the meaning of life.

 

All you've done is state your opinion. You yourself haven't presented any facts, just your interpretation on what's happened, which are not facts. So to somehow use this to make yourself "self-righteous" in an discussion like this is just showing your lack of debate skills. Mind you, I've said this elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure you're trolling more than anything, because no one in their right mind could be as naive as what you're showing in my opinion without at least thinking of some logic that goes against what you're saying.

[kingofsurrey]

5 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

+/- has very little to do with actual defensive play. 

 

You could get a +just for coming off the bench at the right time or get a minus do to someone else's careless line change. 

Patrice Bergeron is commonly though of as the best defensive player in the NHL...

 

Interesting to note he has never had a negative plus / minus season in his career. 

 

So you just think he is lucky ???

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, Winter Soldier said:

It's not a debate when the facts back it up. How many times has Vrbata been a rental? He's a mercenary with a proven attitude problem and you think teams are lining up to deal for him? I mention 2017 because Arizona fans were using the same logic you are and already enjoying the first round pick they thought he would fetch. Funny how history repeats itself, I guess. Unless you want to close your eyes and pretend otherwise.

 

Vbrata didn't put up 31 goals this year so no facts don't back it up. And if Canucks traded him in the summer he wouldn't have been a rental either. Funny how flames picked up a return for hagglin, sharp, and even prust were moved for more than we got for a 31 goal 63 point player.   Canucks got more in return from Patrick McNally that summer.  But no teams were interested in vbrata. Mmm ok then?

[oldnews]

1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said:

People who think plus/minus indicates whether or not someone is a good defensive player....

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Be careful. Shinky was plus 10 this year in the AHL......

 

[oldnews]

12 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

 

red herring.

 

Bergeron could have had minus seasons and that wouldn't indicate that he was a lesser two way player than he is.

 

Malhotra had 13 minus seasons in the NHL - must have been a bad defensive player, right.

 

There is a whole lot more to any equation than 'never had a minus season' - that is certainly not what makes or indicates that  Bergeron is an elite two way forward.

 

 

[kingofsurrey]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

red herring.

 

Bergeron could have had minus seasons and that wouldn't indicate that he was a lesser two way player than he is.

 

Malhotra had 13 minus seasons in the NHL - must have been a bad defensive player, right.

 

There is a whole lot more to any equation than 'never had a minus season'  but I suspect you're more interested in pointless arguments than reasonable examination.

Shinkaruk was a first round draft pick.

Too early to write him off as a 21 yr old.

 

Granny at 21 was also looking like an  AHL player.  

 

That is my point. 

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Shinkaruk was a first round draft pick.

Too early to write him off as a 21 yr old.

 

Granny at 21 was also looking like an  AHL player.  

 

That is my point. 

First round draft pick means nothing.

Neither does +10.

Neither of those things will get Shinkaruk into the NHL.

 

Btw, Shinkaruk was 22 as of October - he as close to 23 as he is 21.

 

Five forwards on Stockton scored more than he did this year - and that is his bread and butter (not two-way hockey).   Three of those forwards are younger than Shinkaruk.  And two of them were 1st round picks.

He's still young, yes, but he's got an uphill battle to make the Flames.  His best chance may be if/when he hits waivers next fall.

The Flames have Gaudreau and Tkachuk at LW in their top 6 - good luck to Shinkaruk cracking that top 6 and wadr, they have far better, more suitable bottom six forwards than HS.

[canuck73_3]

5 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Shinkaruk was a first round draft pick.

Too early to write him off as a 21 yr old.

 

Granny at 21 was also looking like an  AHL player.  

 

That is my point. 

Except Granlund didn't look like an AHL player at 21 that's just what you Benning haters spewed ad nauseum around here. 

 

As for Bergeron no it's not luck he's just an elite defensive forward you know how I know I watched him play, not his +/- stat line. 

[kingofsurrey]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

Except Granlund didn't look like an AHL player at 21 that's just what you Benning haters spewed ad nauseum around here. 

 

As for Bergeron no it's not luck he's just an elite defensive forward you know how I know I watched him play, not his +/- stat line. 

Wow, you have watched Bergeron on TV a few times...  Thats amazing.  Do you get to see his full game both on and off the puck..... ?

 

[kingofsurrey]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

First round draft pick means nothing.

Neither does +10.

Neither of those things will get Shinkaruk into the NHL.

 

Btw, Shinkaruk was 22 as of October - he's closer to 23 than he is 21.

 

Five forwards on Stockton scored more than he did this year - and that is his bread and butter (not two-way hockey).   Three of those forwards are younger than Shinkaruk.

He's still young, yes, but he's got an uphill battle to make the Flames.  His best chance may be if/when he hits waivers next fall.

Great to kick on a guy when he is down.   Shinky  may not have had a great year this year.

Guy has shown to be a scorer at every level he has played...

 

I say give it another  1-2 years before we know if his NHL dream is a bust. 

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, kingofsurrey said:

 

 

'Bergeron is a great two way forward' has literally nothing to do with Shinkaruk - using Bergeron as an analogy in a discussion of whether Shinkaruk is a decent two way forward is some really weak grasping at tangents.

[oldnews]

Just now, kingofsurrey said:

Great to kick on a guy when he is down.   Shinky  may not have had a great year this year.

Guy has shown to be a scorer at every level he has played...

 

I say give it another  1-2 years before we know if his NHL dream is a bust. 

Spare me the soft soap dramatics.  I'm not kicking Shinkaruk 'when he's down' - I'm being realistic regarding his chances of making the NHL.

No one called Shinkaruk a 'bust'.  He was a late 1st - the odds of being an NHL regular as a 24th overall pick are about 1 in 3 - so he's actually doing ok relative to his pedigree as an NHL/AHL tweener.

But you're here pumping his plus/minus and the fact he's a 1st round pick - neither of which mean a thing wadr.

[kingofsurrey]

someone posted shinky was all Offensive  and no Defensive game..

 

Hard to be plus 10   ( plus/minus ) if that is the case and your team is  middle of the road club.... Don't you think. ? 

[canuck73_3]

14 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Wow, you have watched Bergeron on TV a few times...  Thats amazing.  Do you get to see his full game both on and off the puck..... ?

 

Also went to the Canucks and Bruins games here as well as I enjoy the Bruins. I watch the Bruins as often as I watch the Canucks so yes I have a better read on Bergeron than you do, also his numerous Selke nominations and wins speak for him as well. 

 

But congrats to Shinkaruk and his amazing +10. 

[kingofsurrey]

4 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Also went to the Canucks and Bruins games here as well as I enjoy the Bruins. I watch the Bruins as often as I watch the Canucks so yes I have a better read on Bergeron than you do, also his numerous Selke nominations and wins speak for him as well. 

 

But congrats to Shinkaruk and his amazing +10. 

Wow so you have seen Bergeron play once in person.

 

You are an expert.  Well  done.

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Wow so you have seen Bergeron play once in person.

 

You are an expert.  Well  done.

Games... implies more than one. Also more of an expert than the guy comparing a career one way AHLer to an elite NHL two way shutdown forward. 

[Aircool]

7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

In 2015 we landed Boeser during that winning year.  Arizona and Buff were already locks for the bottom two spots that year, without purposely loosing we'd have had no chance as finishing bottom two. 

 

in 2016, what more did you want the canucks to do, we finished 3rd last.  We were right in on the Matthews, Laine train.  It's not our fault the lotto balls didn't fall our way,  they only thing more canucks could have done was slide Bettman some money under the table to insure we got one of those two. 

 

2017 were 2nd worst in the NHL, not much more we can do to try and set ourselves up for a Patrick or Hischier,  it's not our fault this year happens to be the year that there isn't a gen talent,  it wasn't long ago (sept 2015) where liljegren was expected to be a franchise D. Things didn't turn out..

 

2018 by all accounts looks like another bottom year with two top end talents in Svechnikov and Dahlin. 

 

You're a big Proponent? of the tank but when a GM follows through on it, he becomes mediocre?  Is 28 and 29th placed finishes not bad enough?

I'm not faulting Jim Benning's ability to draft, I've never criticized it, so your point about Boeser is completely moot. Outside of that, you seem to conflate incompetence with intention. Nobody here believes Jim Benning had any other intention than to make the playoffs this year and last. Loui Eriksson, one of the worst signings in recent memory, is proof of that. Even if he turns it all around and averages 50 pts a season for the rest of the contract, it's too late. This year and next year were the only years that mattered for that contract. Not to mention, it's just the wrong direction for the team. But I mean, in terms of execution of that idea, Benning flopped.

 

Incompetence is what has us here. This is why we don't finish 30th, and don't get the best odds at a top draft pick, because he makes a team he thinks can make it to the playoffs, and then his incompetence results in the team coming Bottom 5 instead. All the while trading for medium term players, sort of players for the next 5 years, not players for the 5 years after that, and letting tangible assets gather dust. Sven Baertschi is 24, we don't want him for his age 30-35 years, we want him for his next 5 years. The problem is, this team will suck for the next 5 years. So who cares? May as well trade him. We should? end up getting more value than a 2nd round pick?

 

You always try to argue with me about Benning, you've been proven wrong by his results. Just stop. You thought this team was going to be good, you were wrong, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. I'm sure you are a nice guy, but what you are not is someone who is capable of foresight. You don't have objectivity with regards to this team, nor the ability to evaluate it.

 

It's hilarious how my predictions are virtually never wrong with regards to this team, yet you think you can come argue with me? Am I always going to be right? No. But, you need to start establishing a track record in terms of your understanding of this team, and it's current situation, before you can expect me to do anything but overlook all you have to say. You are ALWAYS wrong. It's hilarious. You are literally NEVER right with any of your predictions. EVER. But you come in here trying to act like a smart-ass, but you just fall flat on your face. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are. I'm sorry. I don't know what else I can say to make you get your head out your ass, and start listening to some objectivity. So the only thing I can do is knock you down a peg. Because, A, your arguments deserve all the ridicule they get, they are nonsense, and B, the worst thing you can be is intellectually arrogant and stupid. One is manageable, but both together is intellectual suicide.

 

 

Quote

Vey , Prust, Etem, Larssen, Clendening, Pedan so far was wrong, Not moving hammer and Vbrata also misses, he's definitely not perfect.

 

But Baertschi, granlund are good.  Goldi, Dahlen can also be very good. Signing Stecher is another good move.  

He's made mistakes, and some good moves, I already said this. He has an eye for talent. He has no idea how to construct his team long term for TEAM success. He hung on too long to a pipe dream of contention. We flopped, missed on the best players that will come around for the next 10+ years, and didn't have any TEAM success as compensation. Unless you count getting easily bounced out of the playoffs by a team that just got swept 2 years later (with 2 years of development into their young players) as success... You probably do. It would suit your incessant objective of contradicting all that I say, and having no logic to back it up.

[Winter Soldier]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Vbrata didn't put up 31 goals this year so no facts don't back it up. And if Canucks traded him in the summer he wouldn't have been a rental either. Funny how flames picked up a return for hagglin, sharp, and even prust were moved for more than we got for a 31 goal 63 point player.   Canucks got more in return from Patrick McNally that summer.  But no teams were interested in vbrata. Mmm ok then?

Which is why no one has given up anything for him then as they aren't now. Glad you're finally understanding.

 

PS: Point totals in one season don't magically make a guy more attractive to other teams. Notice how no one rushed out to sign him when he became a free agent?