Warhippy Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) Edited January 30, 2020 by Warhippy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: Haha this one hits home. So does this... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: Ain't this the truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) Love that it's happening https://globalnews.ca/news/6480102/horgan-trans-mountain-go-ahead/ On another note. The next big battlefield will be Alberta requiring BC to allow LNG to be shipped to new port facilities being built in the province. I wonder how that will play out. https://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2020/1/how-do-alberta-and-bc-work-together-lng/ Edited January 30, 2020 by Warhippy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said: This is the issue with guys like you that spend all your time on American discussions. I have more than a few times pointed out that Harper changed the equalization program which is screwing Alberta. I also didn't vote for Harper or Scheer. I see it differently, those flying home are directly benefiting their local and provincial economies while making that money in Alberta. There has to be give and take and a province shouldn't be punished for not having taxes. Let's face it if Alberta was Ontario or Quebec they formula would be changed, you know that, Jim. and as Chretien used to say, if my grandma had wheels she could have been a bus. Who cares, we can't change that. Whats the best thing that we can do to make things fairer, not just for Alberta but for every province thats a major resource exporter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 09 Sep 2019 https://globalnews.ca/news/5879838/parkland-institute-report-revenue-alberta-sales-tax/ In what is being sold as the “alternative” to the government-commissioned MacKinnon Report, Parkland Institute is giving its own outlook on Alberta’s finances. The MacKinnon Report, released last Tuesday, said the province has a spending problem and needs to make changes to healthcare and education funding. In contrast, the Parkland Institute found Alberta’s revenues are “woefully insufficient.” The authors of the report said revenue was something the UCP government did not look at with the MacKinnon Report. According to the research centre based in the University of Alberta, the solution is a provincial sales tax. “We site a variety of studies that show raising a dollar from a sales tax is less expensive than raising a dollar of personal income tax or corporate tax,” said co-author Bob Ascah. Both the minister of finance and political scientists have said a harmonized tax is not going to happen in the next four years. The Parkland Institute launched its study in the spring after the UCP announced it would create a panel to look at Alberta’s finances. Overall, it says Alberta is in good shape compared to other Canadian provinces, with a decent GDP, unemployment rate and wage. One economist cautions against putting too much weight into either report. “The MacKinnon Report is going to set up a worst-case scenario, the Parkland Report sets up maybe a best-case scenario and we have to acknowledge that the reality is somewhere in the middle,” said Moshe Lander, a professor of economics at Concordia University. Critics expect the government may use the MacKinnon Report to justify steep cuts in the upcoming budget, that could include lifting the current post-secondary tuition freeze and introducing more private healthcare clinics. “Overall, the Alberta economy is resilient, it always has been,” Lander said. “It will bounce back just the way any other economy will.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedestroyerofworlds Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: thank you so sharing your viewpoint that represents a very large and growing viewpoint in the country. Rich people aren’t the problem. So what if rich people want to keep more of their hard earned $. They already pay 80% of the taxes in the country, they create stimulus and job growth and come up with ways to create competition that improves quality of life. But for some reason people think rich people are evil. Entitlement in today’s age, you don’t bite the hand that feed you. Never said the rich were the problem. Never said the rich were evil. The entitlement swings both ways. Cutting taxes for the wealthy only results in them being able to buy another vacation home, or another sports car for their fleet. Or more money in their offshore accouts. Cutting taxes for the poorer members of society, giving an extra $100 in their pockets results in that money getting spent and trickles through the economy creating all kinds of economic activity. But hey, you keep on keeping on arguing that the wealthy should get more and more while demonizing the poorer members of society Edited January 30, 2020 by thedestroyerofworlds 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 19 minutes ago, BPA said: According to the research centre based in the University of Alberta, the solution is a provincial sales tax. “We site a variety of studies that show raising a dollar from a sales tax is less expensive than raising a dollar of personal income tax or corporate tax,” said co-author Bob Ascah. @Ryan Strome 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 27 minutes ago, BPA said: 09 Sep 2019 https://globalnews.ca/news/5879838/parkland-institute-report-revenue-alberta-sales-tax/ along with being the most efficient way to raise money, a pst is also inherently fair. Its also far preferable to debt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 But...they cashed their cheques so it was all good https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/alberta-taxes-oilpatch-1.5445116 There is no denying how much the oilpatch has provided Alberta over all these years — the jobs, tax revenue, government royalties and economic activity — a benefit to nearly every corner of the province, no matter how remote. It's oil and gas funding community centres and arenas. It's oil and gas revenues helping pave rural roads. It's oil and gas building the tallest office towers in Western Canada. At least, until recently. The prolonged downturn in prices has taken the shine off the industry and affection for the sector is also taking a hit. Last week, rural towns and municipalities announced they are owed $173 million by oil and gas companies in unpaid taxes. There's also the revelation the Alberta Energy Regulator is purposely collecting a lower amount from some companies to prevent more of them from going bankrupt. The security deposits are supposed to help cover the cost of cleaning up old oil and gas wells, if those companies fail and no one buys the assets. On both fronts, some argue, Albertans are giving industry a subsidy. Raising taxes, slashing services With the outstanding tax balance, many rural towns and counties are faced with raising taxes on other businesses and homeowners and slashing services. The regulator's shortfall in security deposit increases the likelihood more government money will be needed in the future to clean up wells. The situation has some people wondering whether it's time for a reckoning for Alberta's delinquent oilpatch companies. Make no mistake, the majority of companies are paying their bills and are spending money every year to properly reclaim their oil wells. Still, there are black sheep — mainly smaller oil and gas companies. They are behind on their bills and teetering on the edge of going belly up. With so much uncertainty surrounding future oil or natural gas prices, maybe some of these smaller companies won't last, regardless of whether they are subsidized or not. Opinions are pretty split. On a provincial CBC Radio call-in show on the oilpatch tax issue, half of the people demanded companies pay up, while the other half said the industry deserved a break. Time to purge The tax shortfall is throwing municipal budgets into a tailspin. The Municipal District of Taber in Southern Alberta is owed more than $2 million from oil and gas companies, which represents close to 10 per cent of its budget. As a result, the municipality has laid off workers, halted the replacement of equipment, and scrapped plans for road improvements and a recreation centre. There's no money for anything new. Of the 44 oil and gas producers operating in the municipality, 15 did not pay their taxes. "Some of them are actually bankrupt and out of business, but some are just choosing not to pay because there is nothing to force them to pay," said Reeve Merrill Harris on CBC Radio's The Calgary Eyeopener. "If you're a viable, active company, taxes shouldn't be an option. They should be something that has to be paid." Other municipalities are also raising taxes. That's got rural landowners complaining about a "triple whammy" of grief with the oilpatch. Many farmers aren't getting the full payment from energy companies to use their land, taxes are going up as municipalities aren't getting paid, and, if they have a geriatric well on their property, they don't know when it will get cleaned up. That's why there is talk in some rural communities of getting rid of the deadbeats. Landowner Dwight Popowich doesn't buy the argument that oilpatch companies need a break. "In my mind, it's time to consolidate the industry, get the weak players out of the system, get the resource back in the hands of financially stable companies. That's our problem," said Popowich, who owns land near the town of Two Hills. If a small company can't afford to pay bills, nor afford its eventual cleanup costs, maybe it shouldn't still be operating, critics say. The industry is receiving other assistance too. The provincial government introduced a 35 per cent municipal tax break for shallow natural gas producers. The province also lowered the corporate tax rate. The financial hand-holding of the industry needs to end, according to former Alberta Liberal leader David Swann. "What other industry, what other corporation is getting this kind of treatment?" he said. "We are just propping them up year after year and ignoring the fact that they are an industry on the way out." A reckoning on tax burden For the oilpatch, the tax issue isn't anything new. The problem surfaced more than a decade ago and companies have argued for years that their municipal tax bills are escalating too quickly. Canadian Natural Resources, the largest oil and gas producer in the country, previously said its property taxes swelled five times more than its revenues from 2004 to 2014. CNRL, of course, still has healthy profits. In the latest quarter, it posted earnings of $1.23 billion, compared with $1.35 billion a year earlier. It's the smaller companies that are at higher risk of going belly up. These companies have employees, investors and suppliers, and are often spending money in parts of the province with limited economic activity. During the downturn of the last five years, the oilpatch's pain has been felt across many other sectors, such as rural hotels, for instance. Before demanding these companies pay their taxes and full deposits to the regulator, some argue the financial fallout should be considered. The whole sector is already under enough stress and there's no need to add more pressure, according to Brad Herald, with the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers. Forcing companies into bankruptcy would have repercussions. "That's challenging for the workers and communities involved where they operate," he said. The industry points out that the value of oilpatch assets has declined over the last five years, but taxes haven't. "There has to be a meeting of the minds," said business commentator Deb Yedlin on The Calgary Eyeopener. "The formula that exists today is not reflective of the reality." Although the issue may not be new, it seems to be getting worse. Some in the oilpatch say municipalities should reconsider how much companies are charged in taxes. Others argue a reckoning has already happened in the oilpatch as the downturn has claimed dozens of companies. What happened in Texas? A historical case study from Texas shines some light on what could happen when oil and gas companies are forced to pay up. In 2001, the state's regulator decided to increase the amount industry owed as security toward eventual cleanup of oil and gas wells. Small companies were upset, arguing it would drive them out of business. They were right, although it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. University of California San Diego economics professor Judson Boomhower crunched the data and concluded small companies were largely bought up by larger companies. Oil and gas production remained steady and the sector's environmental performance improved with fewer of the smaller players. His findings were released last year in the American Economic Review. A similar outcome could happen in Alberta, said Boomhower. One big difference, though, is the province's large number of inactive oil and gas wells. If smaller firms go belly up, some of those wells may become orphans. "There is a huge population of idle wells [in Alberta], so I do think that is a risk you have to take seriously," he said. The risk of more orphans begs the question whether the wells were likely to become orphans in the next few years anyway, or whether some of the wells would likely have been properly reclaimed by operators. Alberta has an industry-funded association that handles orphan wells, the Orphan Well Association, which is already underfunded and has a backlog of sites. Still, government money already has been spent to help with the growing backlog of wells, pipelines and facilities needing cleanup. That's why the Texas case study provides some useful insight, but the impact of a reckoning for unpaid bills isn't clear, for the environment or rural Alberta. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 26 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: @Ryan Strome 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 19 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: along with being the most efficient way to raise money, a pst is also inherently fair. Its also far preferable to debt. Actually not a bad idea...it will guarantee wexit Alberta or the freedom conservatives win the 2023 election. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPA Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 https://www.alberta.ca/alberta-tax-advantage.aspx Overview Alberta’s tax advantage is an estimate of the total additional provincial taxes individuals and businesses would pay if Alberta had the same tax system as other provinces. Alberta's tax advantage is $13.4 billion in 2019-20. For more information, see the Government of Alberta 2019-23 Fiscal Plan (Tax Plan chapter) (PDF, 7.5 MB). Alberta tax advantage chart Albertans across all income ranges continue to pay the lowest overall taxes when compared to other provinces. Alberta's tax advantage, 2019-20 (billions of dollars) Source: Alberta Treasury Board and Finance This graph shows the total additional provincial tax and carbon charges that individuals and businesses would pay if Alberta had the same tax system and carbon charges as other provinces. This information reflects tax rates for other provinces known as of October 24, 2019. This comparison includes: personal and corporate income tax sales tax fuel tax carbon charges (excluding the fuel charge under the federal carbon pricing backstop) tobacco tax health premiums payroll tax liquor tax and markups land transfer tax other minor taxes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 57 minutes ago, thedestroyerofworlds said: Never said the rich were the problem. Never said the rich were evil. The entitlement swings both ways. Cutting taxes for the wealthy only results in them being able to buy another vacation home, or another sports car for their fleet. Or more money in their offshore accouts. Cutting taxes for the poorer members of society, giving an extra $100 in their pockets results in that money getting spent and trickles through the economy creating all kinds of economic activity. Just because you see it as pocket change doesn’t mean that’s how they view it. People constantly try to compare and fit their own lifestyle into the lifestyle of others. “You don’t need that fancy car or the vacation home in Scottsdale.” But who are you to judge someone’s lifestyle. They are able to achieve that by bringing something that society had a demand for. That lifestyle is the reward for filling that supply. That lifestyle is what motivates people to put in the extra hours or hard work. take it away and quality of life drastically drops. Why would someone spend 8 years in university and rack up a ton of student debt to become a doctor only to have the same financial freedom as the kid working at McDonald’s? Doesn’t sound very appealing. Having more is not a sin. Claiming it’s immoral is just envy. Quote But hey, you keep on keeping on arguing that the wealthy should get more and more while demonizing the poorer members of society I never said that. I pointed out the idea that people today are already living off the backs of the rich. In Canada the top 10% of earners pays 70% of all the taxes and you want them do more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 33 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: along with being the most efficient way to raise money, a pst is also inherently fair. Its also far preferable to debt. A PST will give Albertans PTSD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph. Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Do people do anything for reasons other than money anymore? Do people have dreams of what/who they wanna be for the sake of being that thing, or does everyone just wanna rich? There's only so much "wealth" to go around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: Actually not a bad idea...it will guarantee wexit Alberta or the freedom conservatives win the 2023 election. I know, no PST is like a religion with you guys. Even if it means a more expensive option like debt you just won't go to a PST for some reason. Edited January 30, 2020 by Jimmy McGill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shift-4 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 23 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: I know, no PST is like a religion with you guys. Even if it means a more expensive option like debt you just won't go to a PST for some reason. HST please Don't want to be like all the idiots in surrounding provinces. Signed, Someone who actually deals with PST returns in all surrounding provinces 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Just now, Shift-4 said: HST please Don't want to be like all the idiots in surrounding provinces. Signed, Someone who actually deals with PST returns in all surrounding provinces one step at a time, I don't want to shock Strome into a coma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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