[Proposal] Would the Canucks be a contender with another Top 6 Forwarded added to the group via UFA?

[Coconuts]

10 hours ago, IBatch said:

With Edler it’s exactly what I see too as one maybe a two year deal, but the days of 6 million are for sure over.   He’s aged like fine wine, but the days of skating the puck have already diminished significantly.   20/17 percentiles isn’t very flattering, was the lowest at both except for Fanta’s zone entries on the team.   Still he gets his points, is good along the boards and infront of the net and that shouldn’t go away at all until he retires.   I also would like to see him get to 1000 games, hard to believe we don’t have one D make that milestone yet.   He would make an excellent third pairing guy right now, I actually hoped that we’d keep Tanev and the two of them would eventually take over that role together.   Schmidt if he comes as advertised, will sure take over as our number two, in a way our number one - for me true number ones can do all things well, like Edler’s peak, but at an even higher level - Theodore, AP, Weber, Hedman, Chara etc types.   League is changing and this is no slight on QHs, he’s a unique talent and ideally suited for the times, if he ends up bulking up like Krug and Reinhart could see him getting there one day too despite his size.   Krug can actually deliver some punishing hits.   Chelios is a perfect example of a little guy who gave more then he took too.   Don’t expect that but do think 15lbs of man muscle would keep him healthy and polish his overall game at the same time.   
 

Our D does need an overhaul, JBs started this, and yes it sucks we lost Tanev because if we had him as well it would be much better instead of somewhat better.    OJ looked very good.   If he manages no better or worse then his debut we for sure have another piece of the puzzle.  I don’t think he’s going to replace Edler, but do think he could replace Tanev but on the L side, with more offense and a higher overall possession ratio.

Agreed that Edler's big payday days are likely over, I think he'll be paid fairly though. JB seems like that sort of guy, and I respect that. I wonder how coaching will approach our top two pairings, as of right now Edler's still one of those top four guys. I can't help but wonder if playing with a guy like Schmidt might contribute to Edler sustaining his level of play? That'd require Hughes and Myers working though. Schmidt being an able puck mover is massive for this team, which is why I'm not so keen on the idea of having him and Hughes together. Having two pairings with a guy who can move the puck makes us so much more dangerous. I don't think stacking one pair would be the best way to go.

 

I wonder if Hughes can't be a #1 in the vein of Lidstrom and Neidermeyer though? Neidermeyer was only 6'1" and roughly 200. Lidstrom was the same at slightly less. Hughes is a few inches shorter and at least 20 pounds lighter, but he's just turned 21. His playing weight will likely go up at least a bit. Neither of those two guys were overly physical, and Hughes is certainly a sublime skater like Neidermeyer was. Hughes's bread and butter will never be physical play, but neither was theirs. Hell, you could compare him to someone like Rafalski as well, who's even more similar in size. Other guys can bring physicality and grit to the d core. 

 

Having Tanev would have been nice, I wonder if Hamonic would be an option. I don't see him wanting to sign with a US team. We'd have to clear space for him, but out D would be better for it. Moving someone like Benn might do it. 

 

I think Juolevi will be a pleastant surprise this upcoming season for anyone with realistic expectations for a rookie D. He's unlikely to step in and have the impact Hughes had, but such a performance isn't the norm for most young D. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't make the team and play regularly. He's certainly got more upside than Tanev ever did, and that's no slight to Tanev. 

[IBatch]

13 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Agreed that Edler's big payday days are likely over, I think he'll be paid fairly though. JB seems like that sort of guy, and I respect that. I wonder how coaching will approach our top two pairings, as of right now Edler's still one of those top four guys. I can't help but wonder if playing with a guy like Schmidt might contribute to Edler sustaining his level of play? That'd require Hughes and Myers working though. Schmidt being an able puck mover is massive for this team, which is why I'm not so keen on the idea of having him and Hughes together. Having two pairings with a guy who can move the puck makes us so much more dangerous. I don't think stacking one pair would be the best way to go.

 

I wonder if Hughes can't be a #1 in the vein of Lidstrom and Neidermeyer though? Neidermeyer was only 6'1" and roughly 200. Lidstrom was the same at slightly less. Hughes is a few inches shorter and at least 20 pounds lighter, but he's just turned 21. His playing weight will likely go up at least a bit. Neither of those two guys were overly physical, and Hughes is certainly a sublime skater like Neidermeyer was. Hughes's bread and butter will never be physical play, but neither was theirs. Hell, you could compare him to someone like Rafalski as well, who's even more similar in size. Other guys can bring physicality and grit to the d core. 

 

Having Tanev would have been nice, I wonder if Hamonic would be an option. I don't see him wanting to sign with a US team. We'd have to clear space for him, but out D would be better for it. Moving someone like Benn might do it. 

 

I think Juolevi will be a pleastant surprise this upcoming season for anyone with realistic expectations for a rookie D. He's unlikely to step in and have the impact Hughes had, but such a performance isn't the norm for most young D. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't make the team and play regularly. He's certainly got more upside than Tanev ever did, and that's no slight to Tanev. 

Again no slight on Q Hughes, it’s the size of the fight not the size of the dog that really matters, but some muscle would sure help him in that regard and I’m sure it will happen a little each year.  Barrie is the same size but 200lbs and built like Reinhart was - a little brick, Chelios probably the standard for small defenders in that category - but that guy was a fitness freak that would make the Sedins blush.   Running marathons without water - biking 100 miles for fun without water and all that wearing a heat suit ha ha.     The Perfect Human and Scott N did just fine with the physical stuff  -  they had little problems clearing the net or pinning guys to the boards which is an area Q Hughes needs strength to help.  
 

Also he never did the combine and it was speculated by his agents advice as it would hurt his draft position.   Some players spent their entire careers lying about their heights - Vernon was one, listed at 5’9” but is/was really 5’7.   Q Hughes height is what he’s told clubs he is, official weigh in and heights haven’t been done.   It’s pretty obvious he’s height challenged...Bieksa was a little too.   Seeing them up and close it was hard not to laugh the first time he skated by, I have doubts he’s six feet tall.    But he definitely didn’t have any problems at 190 clearing the net or along the boards etc.   Hope the same becomes true of QHs over time.  And those are pretty high standards your setting for him with the Lidstrom, SN comparison’s but Neidermayer was the first person I thought of when we drafted him, as a smaller guy who went on to have an amazing career built in skating and overall ability .... until I looked his height up and went, well I guess he’s not that short after all.    Rafalski was though...he’s already surpassed him which is incredible.  
 

And of course Housley, both listed at the same height,  but played with 10-15lbs more muscle on his frame.    That’s the realistic guy QHs can aspire to match.  And wow wouldn’t that be nice, one of the purest offensive D’s the game has ever had. 
 

Also like your idea of QHs and Myers on the same line - and  Edler and Schmidt on another.   That’s a legitimate top four. Myers would protect QHs and I could think of a lot of funny names for that line.      
 

Edit:  If we could move Benn and sign Hamonic to a 2 x 2 deal we’d have our ED bait in the bag and modestly improve our D.   That said I’m ok with things the way they are, other then adding a year to Benns contract for ED protection, we can’t afford to lose Myers, would set us back several years having to trade someone to replace what he offers - because there already are zero RHDs like him or better next year - and it’s so freaking hard to get them via free agency anyways.   Hamilton is almost certainly staying in CAR, they already are trying to re-sign him.   Faulk leaving set that up.    Not a fan of the idea at all of losing Myers to Seattle. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by IBatch

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Again no slight on Q Hughes, it’s the size of the fight not the size of the dog that really matters, but some muscle would sure help him in that regard and I’m sure it will happen a little each year.  Barrie is the same size but 200lbs and built like Reinhart was - a little brick, Chelios probably the standard for small defenders in that category - but that guy was a fitness freak that would make the Sedins blush.   Running marathons without water - biking 100 miles for fun without water and all that wearing a heat suit ha ha.     The Perfect Human and Scott N did just fine with the physical stuff  -  they had little problems clearing the net or pinning guys to the boards which is an area Q Hughes needs strength to help.  
 

Also he never did the combine and it was speculated by his agents advice as it would hurt his draft position.   Some players spent their entire careers lying about their heights - Vernon was one, listed at 5’9” but is/was really 5’7.   Q Hughes height is what he’s told clubs he is, official weigh in and heights haven’t been done.   It’s pretty obvious he’s height challenged...Bieksa was a little too.   Seeing them up and close it was hard not to laugh the first time he skated by, I have doubts he’s six feet tall.    But he definitely didn’t have any problems at 190 clearing the net or along the boards etc.   Hope the same becomes true of QHs over time.  And those are pretty high standards your setting for him with the Lidstrom, SN comparison’s but Neidermayer was the first person I thought of when we drafted him, as a smaller guy who went on to have an amazing career built in skating and overall ability .... until I looked his height up and went, well I guess he’s not that short after all.    Rafalski was though...he’s already surpassed him which is incredible.  
 

And of course Housley, both listed at the same height,  but played with 10-15lbs more muscle on his frame.    That’s the realistic guy QHs can aspire to match.  And wow wouldn’t that be nice, one of the purest offensive D’s the game has ever had. 
 

Also like your idea of QHs and Myers on the same line - and  Edler and Schmidt on another.   That’s a legitimate top four. Myers would protect QHs and I could think of a lot of funny names for that line.      
 

Edit:  If we could move Benn and sign Hamonic to a 2 x 2 deal we’d have our ED bait in the bag and modestly improve our D.   That said I’m ok with things the way they are, other then adding a year to Benns contract for ED protection, we can’t afford to lose Myers, would set us back several years having to trade someone to replace what he offers - because there already are zero RHDs like him or better next year - and it’s so freaking hard to get them via free agency anyways.   Hamilton is almost certainly staying in CAR, they already are trying to re-sign him.   Faulk leaving set that up.    Not a fan of the idea at all of losing Myers to Seattle. 

Oh definitely, and he's got some fight him. In a room that was recently lead by the Sedin's I'd be surprised if him getting into the gym was a problem. Their impact on the the current roster is huge. He may never be the fitness freak some of those others guys were, but he'll get stronger all the same. Lidstrom's a tall order, I wouldn't ever use him as a projection but perhaps more of a style comparison regarding how Quinn may have to defend? He wasn't the skater Neidermeyer was, but he was incredibly intelligent. I like the Rafalski comparison too, it's nuts that Detroit had him and Lidstrom. He'll have to sustain it, Rafalski was incredibly productive throughout his career. Different times, but still. But his lowest total in the NHL was 32 points. 

 

Myers gives the pairing some size and physicality, but he's not a poor skater and he does pretty well with the puck as well. Edler's gradually slowing down in certain areas as you've noted, I think having Schmidt to boost his usefulness would be huge. 

 

I forgot about the ED bit, having Hamonic for that would be a useful thing indeed. Replacing Myers from next year's ufa crop would be difficult, and a trade would be costly. I'd like to see Hamonic, I'm honestly a bit surprised he's still un-signed. 

[IBatch]

17 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Oh definitely, and he's got some fight him. In a room that was recently lead by the Sedin's I'd be surprised if him getting into the gym was a problem. Their impact on the the current roster is huge. He may never be the fitness freak some of those others guys were, but he'll get stronger all the same. Lidstrom's a tall order, I wouldn't ever use him as a projection but perhaps more of a style comparison regarding how Quinn may have to defend? He wasn't the skater Neidermeyer was, but he was incredibly intelligent. I like the Rafalski comparison too, it's nuts that Detroit had him and Lidstrom. He'll have to sustain it, Rafalski was incredibly productive throughout his career. Different times, but still. But his lowest total in the NHL was 32 points. 

 

Myers gives the pairing some size and physicality, but he's not a poor skater and he does pretty well with the puck as well. Edler's gradually slowing down in certain areas as you've noted, I think having Schmidt to boost his usefulness would be huge. 

 

I forgot about the ED bit, having Hamonic for that would be a useful thing indeed. Replacing Myers from next year's ufa crop would be difficult, and a trade would be costly. I'd like to see Hamonic, I'm honestly a bit surprised he's still un-signed. 

For sure ... Rafalski was the second player I thought of after we drafted QHs (again Scott N first)...under the radar, consistently productive throughout his career.   QHs definitely stood up to the attention and was still mostly effective, including one Vegas game in particular that they didn’t contain him.   Before Vegas he was money the entire time.   The sky’s the limit for him for sure...also think Myers skating is very good, especially for a guy his size.   The two of them would together could do some serious damage. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

It's tempting to say we could just flip one of our many good young defensive prospects like Rathbone (+/- a pick as well) to move Eriksson's contract and then sign a solid UFA, but I think we'd just be making the same problem - overpay a UFA and end up in the same situation in 5 years time. I'd much rather groom and develop that young player and pick, we might end up with a better player from it that the difference between Hoffman > Eriksson even.

[Canucklehead73]

On 10/29/2020 at 4:05 PM, bree2 said:

don't you think Jake should have to prove he can stick in the top six, meaning not just playing 2 good games then floating for 4.  i like Jake and want him to improve , but he has to know he is going into his 6th year.  so fingers crossed he comes to camp ready to play like a top 6 forward

Sure, that goes for every player, it's a what have you done for me lately business... That being said

 

Top six point getters for the canucks forwards last year...

 

JT Miller 72 points

Elias Pettersson 66 points

Bo Horvat 53 points

Brock Boeser 45 points

Tanner Pearson 45 points

Tyler Toffoli 44 points

Jake Virtanen 36 points

 

Hardly far behind Pearson and Toffoli, whom I would say get penciled in as top 6 players?, IF you project Virtanen to improve modestly... granted no guarantee.

 

31 teams in the league x 6 186 players are ranked top 6 by virtue of points... Virtanen is ranked 146th. Tied for the 99th ranked forward for Goals.

 

Seems to me he has proved it pretty much, at the very least enough to get a shot at playing with better players and getting better opportunities.

 

To be honest Ericksson etc pretty much hinder us from signing a guy like Hoffman, so the question is moot, but I still think Virtanen is a better option due to his grit.

 

 

 

[IBatch]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:14 PM, Coconuts said:

I'm also strongly of the opinion that if we're looking to do something drastic like pay the price required to move Eriksson, it'd better be because we're taking advantage of a cap strapped team like Tampa. Not to fish in free agency for guys who've walked on their teams who are likely at or approaching the tail end of their prime. That's the sort of move you make as an established contender, not the move you make after making the playoffs for the second time in seven years. And whoever we bring in needs to be worth whatever it costs to dump cap along with whatever we have to give up for said player. 

 

If we're freeing up cap space I strongly feel it should be to take on a piece/pieces that could grow with this core longer term. Something like a Cernak or Sergachev. I'm not interested in spending youth on diminishing assets when our competitive window is just opening. 

 

I understand fan excitement about playoffs, and spitballing via proposals, but I don't see the appeal in fast-tracking our way to being more competitive when we don't have to as a team on the rise. 

Well said Coconuts.   That’s why the Miller and Schmidt trades were so important to this team.   Both in their primes, both much needed pieces.   Would suggest two more of those types of deals would put us into the conversation of best in the West...but these things take time and those types of deals don’t happen overnight.   The simple fact that only two of those types of deals have been made league wide the last two seasons, and both came to the Canucks is very encouraging.   JB deserves huge props for this.   A first and two thirds is a tiny price to pay for the pair collectively.   Especially given we ended up giving a late first.  
 

Exciting times so get the urge to think we are almost there, Vegas smashed that idea into smitherings for me at least.  We have a ways to go yet.   Demko needs to prove he can do it consistently, and 50% of our defense still needs an overhaul after Schmidt.   Plus one more 60 point guy for our top six.   Hoffman would have been fine but doubt he’s going to maintain that level for more then a couple of years if that.   Podz and OJ both could become core guys yet.   Let’s hope they do as that would go a long way - then we could look at plugging the remaining hole or two with proven vets/free agency. 

[Coconuts]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well said Coconuts.   That’s why the Miller and Schmidt trades were so important to this team.   Both in their primes, both much needed pieces.   Would suggest two more of those types of deals would put us into the conversation of best in the West...but these things take time and those types of deals don’t happen overnight.   The simple fact that only two of those types of deals have been made league wide the last two seasons, and both came to the Canucks is very encouraging.   JB deserves huge props for this.   A first and two thirds is a tiny price to pay for the pair collectively.   Especially given we ended up giving a late first.  
 

Exciting times so get the urge to think we are almost there, Vegas smashed that idea into smitherings for me at least.  We have a ways to go yet.   Demko needs to prove he can do it consistently, and 50% of our defense still needs an overhaul after Schmidt.   Plus one more 60 point guy for our top six.   Hoffman would have been fine but doubt he’s going to maintain that level for more then a couple of years if that.   Podz and OJ both could become core guys yet.   Let’s hope they do as that would go a long way - then we could look at plugging the remaining hole or two with proven vets/free agency. 

Oh no doubt, the Miller trade worked out amazingly and the consensus about Schmidt seems to be that he's a huge upgrade on Tanev. Not that we won't miss what Tanev brings. Benning and management deserve full credit for being able to swing those two deals. Schmidt's hit is a tad higher than I'd like, but both players being locked up when they were brought in is helpful, particularly the Miller contract during our cap crunch of the next couple seasons. It's easy to praise moves in retrospect, but I remember a lot of people being happy with the deal when it was made. 

 

That's just it, though the run was fun and encouraging we're still a ways off I think. We've got some great pieces in place, but there's tinkering to be done for sure. Demko's a question mark, so is Holtby (though I think he'll be a pleasant surprise). Our top 4 currently looks good, but Edler will need replacing sooner than later and our 5-7 slots don't currently look very encouraging with Benn being the only player who's had extensive NHL time. Juolevi proving he belongs would go a long way. Tram coming back would be huge. Having one or two of Woo, Rathbone, Brisebois, Rafferty, ect step up over the next couple seasons would be huge as well. Woo's likely at least a few years out, I think Brisebois and Rathbone may step in sooner than later. We'll likely get a look at Rafferty this season. 

 

I think we've got a good crop of forwards on the cusp in Pods, Hoglander, Lind, and Lockwood. The latter two may very well surprise and look to be middle six guys, I'll be surprised if Lind doesn't crack the roster over the next couple seasons. He's got some tenacity to his game and he's adapted to every level thus far regarding production. Guys like Gadjovich and Jasek aren't write-offs either, they could very well turn into something too. 

 

With the guys we'll need to re-up we likely won't have a ton of dough for free agents, it's gonna be important that we try and integrate/get better looks at some of these players over the next couple seasons. Anyone can try going after guys in free agency, but they're almost always older players. Integrating our own youth is essential, if only from a cap perspective, if we want to keep our competitive window open for a long time. 

[kenhodgejr]

Ive always loved the speed of Mikael Granlund and I think he could get a lot of breakaways playing on our top line..... I think he could be potentially better that Tyler Tofolli 

 

We would probably have to move Sutter 

 

Miller Pettersson Granlund

Pearson Horvat Boeser 

Motte Gaudette Virtanen 

Roussel Beagle MacEwan 

Eriksson 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by kenhodgejr