[PGT] Edmonton Oilers at Vancouver Canucks | Oct. 30, 2021

[ShawnAntoski]

16 minutes ago, stawns said:

The box +1 isnt passive, persay.  It's oppotunistic.......you pressure the puck in certain areas (like corners and points) where you can confine the puck carrier and you jump on mistakes.  It's an excellent system when executed properly and it's far more effective in an era where you can't hook, hold etc.

Chiming in this convo:  in the playoffs the whistles are put away and the system we are watching on the ice seems to easily be countered by other coaches through a full court press type strategy.  

 

Also, wondering if any team is currently using a similar system with any success ?

Edited October 31, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[Justintime]

Not even 10 games into the season and I'm checked out. If they fire Green, which they won't, I'll become interested again. 

[131313]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

And that eventually happens with all coaches. 
 

Right now the line blender starts very early in games but you never see Pearson without Horvat. That limits what should be a very flexible top 6. 
 

Pearson needing to be with Horvat is Green’s kryptonite. Garland, Hoglander, hell even Podkolzin should be top 6 ahead of Pearson especially on a team struggling to generate offense. Trying to balance every line to do all things rather than carving out roles for lines is a huge weakness of these coaches. That’s why we see Highmore getting offensive shifts, etc. No actual role based on their actual strengths, just based on what Green hopes they can be. 
 

He is incredibly biased and it’s clouded his judgment too far now to get back to objectivity.

Seriously? Pettersson, Miller and Boeser all belong in the ECHL right now, none of them are even playing like AHLers and you are upset about Pearson and Highmore? This isn't a bottom 6 problem or a coaching problem,  the top forwards are a complete waste of roster spots right now.

[ShawnAntoski]

1 minute ago, Justintime said:

Not even 10 games into the season and I'm checked out. If they fire Green, which they won't, I'll become interested again. 

Same, I normally just look at the general tone of the forum or who is on it - far more entertaining.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, 131313 said:

Seriously? Pettersson, Miller and Boeser all belong in the ECHL right now, none of them are even playing like AHLers and you are upset about Pearson and Highmore? This isn't a bottom 6 problem or a coaching problem,  the top forwards are a complete waste of roster spots right now.

The top players are at least skilled enough to be top players. They are playing like crap but are at least still skilled players.

 

Pearson has 1-2 good shifts per game where he looks like a good player and then looks like an anchor to Horvat. I don’t see many teams where Pearsonnwould be in the top 6 and on the PP to be honest. He is simply too inconsistent in both effort and results.
 

Highmore skates fast. That’s really all he has. He doesn’t consistently hit, he skates himself out of position, and he adds nothing offensively other than a shot on goal every once in awhile. I struggle finding any other team except maybe Arizona where he would be a regular player let alone a top 9 guy being deployed with the teams best player.

 

Green values these type of guys over more skilled guys. So ya, it’s a coaching issue.

[ShawnAntoski]

10 minutes ago, 131313 said:

Seriously? Pettersson, Miller and Boeser all belong in the ECHL right now, none of them are even playing like AHLers and you are upset about Pearson and Highmore? This isn't a bottom 6 problem or a coaching problem,  the top forwards are a complete waste of roster spots right now.

Under Greens tutelage they are playing sloppy.  This team has no cohesiveness in there games; rather there is alot of individual play that ends up to an easy save.

Edited October 31, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[King Heffy]

10 minutes ago, 131313 said:

Seriously? Pettersson, Miller and Boeser all belong in the ECHL right now, none of them are even playing like AHLers and you are upset about Pearson and Highmore? This isn't a bottom 6 problem or a coaching problem,  the top forwards are a complete waste of roster spots right now.

When the whole team is underachieving, usually that points to a coaching issue, especially when the head coach can't even be trusted to set the lineup properly.

[131313]

5 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The top players are at least skilled enough to be top players. They are playing like crap but are at least still skilled players.

 

Pearson has 1-2 good shifts per game where he looks like a good player and then looks like an anchor to Horvat. I don’t see many teams where Pearsonnwould be in the top 6 and on the PP to be honest. He is simply too inconsistent in both effort and results.
 

Highmore skates fast. That’s really all he has. He doesn’t consistently hit, he skates himself out of position, and he adds nothing offensively other than a shot on goal every once in awhile. I struggle finding any other team except maybe Arizona where he would be a regular player let alone a top 9 guy being deployed with the teams best player.

 

Green values these type of guys over more skilled guys. So ya, it’s a coaching issue.

I can't say I am a huge fan of Highmore, and I think Pearson is a 3rd liner, but when 3 of your top 4 forwards belong in a beer league it doesn't really make any difference.

[bishopshodan]

What a strange start to the season.

The standings remind me that it is early.

For some reason, I cant seen the Panthers and the Canes being the top dogs for the entire year. 

[stawns]

20 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Chiming in this convo:  in the playoffs the whistles are put away and the system we are watching on the ice seems to easily be countered by other coaches through a full court press type strategy.  

 

Also, wondering if any team is currently using a similar system with any success ?

Most teams use it to a degree.  How many teams do you see playing man to man as opposed to zone because that's pretty much what it amounts to

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, 131313 said:

I can't say I am a huge fan of Highmore, and I think Pearson is a 3rd liner, but when 3 of your top 4 forwards belong in a beer league it doesn't really make any difference.

Green and Baumgartner aren't even good enough to coach beer league.

[ShawnAntoski]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

Most teams use it to a degree.  How many teams do you see playing man to man as opposed to zone because that's pretty much what it amounts to

Can you name a team ? 

 

All I see for the most part are the better coached teams are constantly making adjustments based on personnel, time of the year and opponent.  With the Canucks, I hardly see any adjustments - especially, in a period by period basis.

Edited October 31, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

When the whole team is underachieving, usually that points to a coaching issue, especially when the head coach can't even be trusted to set the lineup properly.

I wouldn't say the whole team is underachieving.  The "top" line is barely AHL calibre right now and that's the single biggest factor.  The dcorp is playing well and lines 3&4 are ok as well.......not great, but not costing them either.  This teams issues are top 6, it's pretty clear

[stawns]

1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Can you name a team ?   

I don't watch other teams, bit the Oilers certainly did last night, the Flyers did as well.  They're just much more aggressive with it.  The problem is t the system, it's the execution, or lack thereof.  If you play it, you need to be aggressive when the pick is in certain areas or when the other team bobbles it.  The Canucks seem to be waiting for someone else to be aggressive, so no one is 

 

However, they looked better last night, and hopefully that's a step in the right direction

[131313]

2 minutes ago, stawns said:

I wouldn't say the whole team is underachieving.  The "top" line is barely AHL calibre right now and that's the single biggest factor.  The dcorp is playing well and lines 3&4 are ok as well.......not great, but not costing them either.  This teams issues are top 6, it's pretty clear

Thank you, you put that better than I did. I ended up defending coaching when I really meant to say the top players were playing awful.

[wallstreetamigo]

8 minutes ago, 131313 said:

I can't say I am a huge fan of Highmore, and I think Pearson is a 3rd liner, but when 3 of your top 4 forwards belong in a beer league it doesn't really make any difference.

I think that’s a bit extreme. They haven’t played well but they are still generating more chances than the scrubs.

[RWJC]

If I may be so bold…

I just smoked up and received a cosmic revelation, around which I will make a statement and bold prediction:

 

JB TG and Aqua have a specific build and identity in mind for this team that has been sidetracked the last couple years because of Covid/injuries. Yes, the general excuse. 

 

However the circumstance, we are at the final stage of that blueprint. Here is what I foreseeeee:

 

when Motte, Hamonic, Dickinson, and Sutter(?) return (a large reason why we are having to play the system we are), we will finally have a balanced team from top to bottom with basically two top 6 lines and two bottom 6 lines.

 

the top 6 will be heavily stacked, solely offense minded, with a mix of speed,  creative license, fluidity and chemistry.

2 balanced lines that basically share their TOI  breakdown relatively evenly.

the burden for having to buy in on a team based defensive play structure will be lifted. The purpose will no longer be to make up for the injuries in the bottom 6. The top 6 is only there to push offensive play, in cooperation from the back end as well, obvy.

 

The bottom 6, the other half of what Shaw was brought in for, was to establish the same level of expectation and responsibility as the top 6…a system that is fast, aggressive, and shut down, relying more on speed, IQ/positioning and - again - chemistry, rather than using the body.  both bottom 6 lines will also share TOI relatively evenly and both evenly balanced.

The bottom 6 total TOI will also be increased so that the top 6’s minutes are lessened potentially enabling crisp, sharp, precise creative play which caters to the hockey IQ and stamina of that group. They are not supposed to be defensive minded and having to be is what is stifling this team.

I believe this is Green’s idea of his system, and because of pretty unfortunate circumstances the last few years, we have never been able to a) case study it, b) depend on player health  to effectively roll it out. 
 

TG was renewed for these reasons. JB was given the green light to make the effective and requisite changes AGAIN to try and reshape in the original mold, which I actually believe in and obvy Aqua does as well.

If we were to ice our roster, and have consistency in health and personnel to help, we would be much further ahead in the overall timeline.

 

EP and QH re-upped with the club because I believe they also know that the intention is to return to a structure/system when they could run the offense the way they know they can.

I think the shortcomings we see on the ice aren’t because they necessarily tuned Green out… they are just defeated from having to play this way for the last two seasons in order to compensate for circumstance.

 

I think this is also why guys like Lind, Gadj, Zack Mac, were essentially let go is because they truly don’t fit within the defined two group structure on either side. They are not good enough (yet) at specifically one or the other. 
 

this team is set. With the OEL/CG deal, we have essentially determined and loaded up our top 6 with one spot within it where the piece (CG, Hogs, Pearson, Podz(?)) can be changed up depending on injury, energy, or what have you.

 

this is why we see the blender so much. 
to navigate through the doldrums, the attrition, and try to keep this team motivated. It’s not to cultivate chemistry and get players going. It’s not to develop new lines.
 I think that’s the farce that is sold to the fans as hope or faith.
 

I think it’s really just a battle of attrition for the longest time now, waiting for our bottom 6 to be healthy across the board so that they can implement their own system and make it effective.  The top 6 is relying on that, and essentially frustrated because of poor luck/fate and being asked to play a style outside of their nature. 
 

this team is effectively built to Green’s system. It’s not the other way around.

 

I think the goal since Green’s hiring has been:

no more 1-2-3-4

more like 2O 2D

 

the injuries to Beagle, Rousseau, Sutter Ferland have heavily complicated this plan since it’s inception, and if you look at who has been turned over in the roster and what has been brought in, the focus to me seems like JB and co have simply had to “plug” the holes in this design because they spent to acquire what they perceived were the right candidates to fulfill this team composition.

 

this is why the heavy focus on the bottom 6 at camp…because it was another year of trying to compensate for key injuries within that group, knowing full well the commitment that was previously promised to the top 6.

 

the other half of the equation, the D, isn’t actually as bad as people perceive.

again, if we had a healthy bottom 6, playing more minutes and being able to be relied on, it would also be a huge benefit and relief to our D group who might be more positionally sound.
again, we don’t have the big bodies there, but we have decent speed. So, the system has been designed to play a faster game, and one that transitions the puck out effectively. You don’t require stud shutdown dmen and big bodies if the defensive line in front of you is playing up to caliber. That’s just fact.

 

the bottom 6 is our weak link, imho.

and the inconsistency of it in our lineups is a key reason why we are seeing this brand of hockey. The O is overcompensating backwards, the D is overcompensating both forward and back. Neither has had the consistent opportunity to define their own piece in the overall team play, and it’s worn the team down on multiple, measurable and immeasurable levels.

 

this is why no one from within is calling out Green. I think they believe in what this system could be if things went according to what should have been a tangible plan. 

this is also why we hear the same rationale all the time…because no one wants to single out the real reason and throw their own teammates under the bus when the total system hasn’t yet even been realized/actualized due to circumstance.

 

again, look at who JB brought in and moved out. Except for OEL, it’s the same type of player, an effective bottom 6 player (not plug) with some positional pedigree and accountability. Small offensive upside but enough to press, but mainly very consistent defensively.
 

Injuries have delayed it. JB spent good money on the exact type of quality players required to ensure the bottom 6 plan was manifested. Once luck/injury prevented that, he again took the steps to replace those players with the same type, paying good money for quality. Again, the bottom 6 has hard luck, but like I said, through attrition and if we can get healthy, I am very hopeful that the strategy Green/JB plans to implement is what I have suggested above, and we will see a revitalized top 6, and an integrated dedicated team approach that is far more balanced and effective. 
 

If only we could stay healthy for a quarter season and really see.

 

I think I’m no longer on the fire Green bandwagon. I’m of the mindset we need 25 - 50 good, healthy player games with this roster to see what if we have what we think we have.

Maybe there is nothing wrong with the team or the system and that’s why the bender is used so much.

 

our top 6 is loaded and waiting to be let go. 
 

our d is well balanced with Hamonic in that lineup.  
 

for now, again, it’s just attrition until our bottom 6 are healthy, imho.

 

(Green) flame away, haha…
 

Happy Halloween everyone!

 

[ShawnAntoski]

Just now, stawns said:

I don't watch other teams, bit the Oilers certainly did last night, the Flyers did as well.  They're just much more aggressive with it.  The problem is t the system, it's the execution, or lack thereof.  If you play it, you need to be aggressive when the pick is in certain areas or when the other team bobbles it.  The Canucks seem to be waiting for someone else to be aggressive, so no one is 

 

However, they looked better last night, and hopefully that's a step in the right direction

Player side then ?

[stawns]

12 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Under Greens tutelage they are playing sloppy.  This team has no cohesiveness in there games; rather there is alot of individual play that ends up to an easy save.

To me, that signals an unfamiliarity with each other which leads to not trusting the players on your line.  Green definitely plays a part in that, but part of it is roster turnover.

 

Again, it takes a long time for teams to build that and it's only been a couple for this core and now a bunch of new faces.  

[wallstreetamigo]

3 minutes ago, stawns said:

I don't watch other teams, bit the Oilers certainly did last night, the Flyers did as well.  They're just much more aggressive with it.  The problem is t the system, it's the execution, or lack thereof.  If you play it, you need to be aggressive when the pick is in certain areas or when the other team bobbles it.  The Canucks seem to be waiting for someone else to be aggressive, so no one is 

 

However, they looked better last night, and hopefully that's a step in the right direction

The strategy itself seems to be passive. It’s not the players deciding to play a passive style against what the coaches want. It’s been simply too long and too consistently employed and the only constant is the coaches.