stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, SilentSam said: Just as you are assuming otherwise ? but you assume he;'s going to love Vancouver so gosh darned much he's going to stay for $7m. Those comparables lead me to believe otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, SilentSam said: Move Boeser keeps Miller. you're going to have to lose a lot more than that, as Horvat will be looking for Petey money, for sure, the next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Well that's where we differ. 5 years from now is a completely different story and we would have to be in rebuild phase again at that time. Five years from now an Pettersson is in the meat of his prime/peak at 28. Hughes 27. If we're rebuilding at that point, we &^@#ed up big time. Having an $8m+, declining, mid 30's Miller just might cause that though, exactly the situation we should be trying to avoid 3 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Currently 4 of the top 10 points leaders are in their 30's. First place goes to a 36 year old. Outliers, many of whom are elite/generational players, do not make good models to plan from. And you want to scuttle mid-late 20's Pettersson and Hughes chances of competing in to their early 30's by saddling them with a giant Miller shaped boat anchor.... OK... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, aGENT said: Five years from now an Pettersson is in the meat of his prime/peak at 28. Hughes 27. If we're rebuilding at that point, we &^@#ed up big time. Having an $8m+, declining, mid 30's Miller just might cause that though, exactly the situation we should be trying to avoid Outliers, many of whom are elite/generational players, do not make good models to plan from. And you want to scuttle mid-late 20's Pettersson and Hughes chances of competing in to their early 30's by saddling them with a giant Miller shaped boat anchor.... OK... exactly, it's about timing. More importantly, I think it's wishful thinking to pin your hopes on Miller wanting to stay in Van.........I can't think of a single reason why he would choose Van over a contending team in the US 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, aGENT said: Five years from now an Pettersson is in the meat of his prime/peak at 28. Hughes 27. If we're rebuilding at that point, we &^@#ed up big time. Having an $8m+, declining, mid 30's Miller just might cause that though, exactly the situation we should be trying to avoid Outliers, many of whom are elite/generational players, do not make good models to plan from. And you want to scuttle mid-late 20's Pettersson and Hughes chances of competing in to their early 30's by saddling them with a giant Miller shaped boat anchor.... OK... Why is Miller declining in his 30's? What has he shown that suggests that? He's a ppg centre with a lot of other intangibles. I would only call one of the 4 in the top 10 'generational' ...maybe Stamkos, maybe. And why can't we rebuild around QH, and EP? Would seem like a good two to retain and be leaders at that age. 5 years from now, regardless we will have a new head coach,and Prez...our current dudes are old AF. i'll give you one of these too..... for no real reason other than that I don't know why my opinions need cute emojis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 i get attachment to players, but this is their shot at a home run to completely change the course of the franchise for the next decade, or longer. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, bishopshodan said: Why is Miller declining in his 30's? What has he shown that suggests that? He's a ppg centre with a lot of other intangibles. I would only call one of the 4 in the top 10 'generational' ...maybe Stamkos, maybe. And why can't we rebuild around QH, and EP? Would seem like a good two to retain and be leaders at that age. 5 years from now, regardless we will have a new head coach,and Prez...our current dudes are old AF. i'll give you one of these too..... for no real reason other than that I don't know why my opinions need cute emojis. you sign Miller to a $9m deal you better hope he can carry the franchise on his back well into his 30's because they'll have to sacrifice a lot of depth. do you see MIller wanting to stay in Van? What do you think he values in the next part of his career? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 1 minute ago, stawns said: i get attachment to players, but this is their shot at a home run to completely change the course of the franchise for the next decade, or longer. I'm not attached to Miller other than centres with his skill set and production are hard to find. I also think our time could be sooner than some in this discussion think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, stawns said: you sign Miller to a $9m deal you better hope he can carry the franchise on his back well into his 30's because they'll have to sacrifice a lot of depth. do you see MIller wanting to stay in Van? What do you think he values in the next part of his career? -i think Van is one of the best cities on the planet. But I dont personally know Miller. -I have no clue, but he's a massive part of a team with huge potential in the next few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 1 minute ago, stawns said: exactly, it's about timing. This is really it. I LOVE Miller, was one of the few people head over heels when we traded for him (for relative peanuts). He's a great player. This isn't an anti-Miller stance. We had a brief mini-window the last couple years to maybe make some playoff hay with him, and the young core on ELC/bridge deals and him on his bargain $5.25m deal. We got one decent playoff run during it. Great. Does he fit the next window, with the young core in it's prime 2-7 +/- years from now, on a new $3m bigger cap hit? Nope. It make sense to sell high on him, multiply assets and focus those assets on supporting that window. 1 minute ago, stawns said: More importantly, I think it's wishful thinking to pin your hopes on Miller wanting to stay in Van.........I can't think of a single reason why he would choose Van over a contending team in the US Either can I. We'd need him to take less money and term than he could get elswhere for it to make sense given the coming contention window. He'd have to be ok with us not being cup competitive for a couple more years vs going straight to a contender, He'd be staying in Canada instead of his home country and paying more taxes... That's a tough sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, bishopshodan said: I'm not attached to Miller other than centres with his skill set and production are hard to find. I also think our time could be sooner than some in this discussion think. i think they're 2 years from being a regular playoff contender and then it's usually 2-3 years of trying and failing before you get to the promised land of the conference finals or finals. I think they're 5 years from true contention, but I don't see it with the current group, as is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, stawns said: i get attachment to players, but this is their shot at a home run to completely change the course of the franchise for the next decade, or longer. You saying it doesn't make it so. If it was that easy, sure. But people try to sell this narrative and we could just as easily flop by dealing our top producers who have been through a war together as a team. Attachment to this idea of "just do it and it'll all be rainbows and sunshine" is also very real. Remember, other teams aren't going to line up to help us "hit a home run". They want to hit the home run. So this is just really dumbing it down and not, at all, "how it is". How people hope it is. Stating like fact something that is completely a gamble (for all) isn't really convincing me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, aGENT said: This is really it. I LOVE Miller, was one of the few people head over heels when we traded for him (for relative peanuts). He's a great player. This isn't an anti-Miller stance. We had a brief mini-window the last couple years to maybe make some playoff hay with him, and the young core on ELC/bridge deals and him on his bargain $5.25m deal. We got one decent playoff run during it. Great. Does he fit the next window, with the young core in it's prime 2-7 +/- years from now, on a new $3m bigger cap hit? Nope. It make sense to sell high on him, multiply assets and focus those assets on supporting that window. Either can I. We'd need him to take less money and term than he could get elswhere for it to make sense given the coming contention window. He'd have to be ok with us not being cup competitive for a couple more years vs going straight to a contender, He'd be staying in Canada instead of his home country and paying more taxes... That's a tough sell. to me, Miller was brought in for a different Vancouver team. That was the team that would have had Miller, Ferland, Sutter, Beagle, Roussel etc etc. Had things worked out differently, that woud have been a solid playoff team that couod have made big waves, backed up with Marky. That ship has sailed and luckily JB was an adept drafter that drafted a solid core of young players that should be ready to compete, for real, in a couple of years. I just don't see Miller as part of that team 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, stawns said: i think they're 2 years from being a regular playoff contender and then it's usually 2-3 years of trying and failing before you get to the promised land of the conference finals or finals. I think they're 5 years from true contention, but I don't see it with the current group, as is. The goal isn't to "be a regular playoff contender". It takes one playoffs to win a cup and they've already shown their battle level IN the playoffs. Although some ignore that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, -DLC- said: You saying it doesn't make it so. If it was that easy, sure. But people try to sell this narrative and we could just as easily flop by dealing our top producers who have been through a war together as a team. Attachment to this idea of "just do it and it'll all be rainbows and sunshine" is also very real. Remember, other teams aren't going to line up to help us "hit a home run". They want to hit the home run. So this is just really dumbing it down and not, at all, "how it is". How people hope it is. Stating like fact something that is completely a gamble (for all) isn't really convincing me. who ever said I did? In fact I said "if they decide to go that direction". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, stawns said: i think they're 2 years from being a regular playoff contender and then it's usually 2-3 years of trying and failing before you get to the promised land of the conference finals or finals. I think they're 5 years from true contention, but I don't see it with the current group, as is. Fair enough. As I said to aGent ... we then disagree on the timeline. I want to see BB raise a cup with us too, cant see him or JR being here in 5 years Edited January 23, 2022 by bishopshodan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, stawns said: who ever said I did? In fact I said "if they decide to go that direction". Uh, the part I quoted in red? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, -DLC- said: The goal isn't to "be a regular playoff contender". It takes one playoffs to win a cup and they've already shown their battle level IN the playoffs. Although some ignore that. very very very few teams win in a one off run. Most of the times you try and fail several times and then the experience from those failures pushes you over the top 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 Just now, -DLC- said: Uh, the part I quoted in red? Let's go back to this part though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted January 23, 2022 Share Posted January 23, 2022 1 minute ago, bishopshodan said: Fair enough. As I said aGent ... we then disagree on the timeline. I want to see BB raise a cup with us too, cant see him or JR being here in 5 years I see the Avs and the Panthers as the teams who have walked a similar path that this team is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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