A Review of GMJB's Trades - He Did Well!

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Darryl Sutter, Joe Juneau, Jimmy Carson, Ken Hodge Jr. come to mind.  But there aren't a ton of them by any stretch.

 

 

You bet - and most of the ones that have done it, still have decent-great careers anyways.    Jimmy Carson who would have thought that though - did it on two different teams ... then died down to just respectable.   Sure would love to get consecutive 100 point seasons from EP - even with different eras, two 85-90 point years would be nice. ... 207 points and 104 goals in two years ... wow! 

Edited February 7, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You bet - and most of the ones that have done it, still have decent-great careers anyways.  

 

I was stunned at how things turned out for Hodge.  He flamed out of the NHL in three years, with a top line NHL pedigree in his bloodline to boot.  I would have probably traded some good stuff for him if I were a GM in 1991.

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I was stunned at how things turned out for Hodge.  He flamed out of the NHL in three years, with a top line NHL pedigree in his bloodline to boot.  I would have probably traded some good stuff for him if I were a GM in 1991.

No doubt.   Hodge was killer in the 70's ... 

[iinatcc]

so for the record I think most of the wins in the OP should be categorized as Draws, Losses, or TBD. 

 

But more importantly I think we need to stop evaluating trades in a Vacuum, as mentioned by the Sportsnet folks. Did the Canucks get better talent from the Garland and OEL trade? Yes but to what end does this lead to?

 

Also the Boninio and Sutter trade there's no universe where this was a Win for Vancouver. 

[Kevin Biestra]

20 minutes ago, IBatch said:

No doubt.   Hodge was killer in the 70's ... 

 

Rob Brown's another one.  Had 115 points or something in his second or third year, then never came close again and was a career minor leaguer until a little comeback at the end.

 

Tyler Myers...

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

35 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Rob Brown's another one.  Had 115 points or something in his second or third year, then never came close again and was a career minor leaguer until a little comeback at the end.

 

Tyler Myers...

 

Yes Myers came to mind too...but i kept guys like him and Barret Jackman out of mind because they really just won based on lack of competition (Calder that is)...think was it Raycroft as well who won but never really became a first stringer? 

 

Can say EPs a little worrisome now ... Bruce at least seems to have helped get him back on the scoreboard,  but now it's just flashes where as his first couple seasons it seemed like he was going to dominate later on...and now IS later on...

Edited February 7, 2022 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

12 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes Myers came to mind too...but i kept guys like him and Barret Jackman out of mind because they really just won based on lack of competition (Calder that is)...think was it Raycroft as well who won but never really became a first stringer? 

 

Can say EPs a little worrisome now ... Bruce at least seems to have helped get him back on the scoreboard,  but now it's just flashes where as his first couple seasons it seemed like he was going to dominate later on...and now IS later on...

 

Yeah but Calder aside, Myers' rookie year was his best by >10 points and his second year still remains his second best.  As to Raycroft, yeah I just figured you wouldn't want to hear about goalies.  Jim Carey comes to mind.  Jordan Binnington, Daren Puppa.  Rozer Crozier if you want to go way way back.  Ed Belfour too...

 

I guess Corey Hirsch and Troy Gamble as well...

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[IBatch]

On 2/4/2022 at 1:05 PM, HKSR said:

So I went ahead and reviewed each and every one of GMJB's trades as a Canuck.  Contrary to what many of you have been saying, he won far more trades than he lost. 

 

In fact, the way I look at it, he won 23 trades, lost 7 of them, and the other 20 were really insignificant or were fair for both teams.  Have a look yourself...

How can you call TT a win?  He'd only be a "win" if we re-signed him (which i was against but still - losing picks and prospects for what exactly?)  He barely helped our team down the stretch (yes he scored but we still lost most of them anyways) and was almost a complete no-show in the playoffs.   Also neither Schmidt trade is a W  .... it would be generous to call them a draw.  Context matters - re-signing Tanev was the W....so minus 5 to the win column.   Every trade had a different reverberation.   Most of them not significant but the ones that were - he lost. 

 

   Picks earlier are always better ... that way that player is one year closer to making it .. Schmidt deal number one HUGE loss ... number two still a loss / maybe a draw for damage control only.  

 

What you should have added was more "insignificant".   Most of the minor deals are just that - skews the overall rankings.  

 

.Also how is Kesler a win?   Top C in the league...huge L which is worth probably 10 of your W's combined.   Just make him play - how many Selke nominations did he get with ANA again?  

 

The Kesler trade with context was bad.   And the Bonino trade was also a L not a W.    Don't want to piss on your parade but this is mostly subjective.    

 

Edit:  Also will say i forgave him right away for the Kesler trade.   It wasn't his fault - that was on MG for letting things slide so badly.    The correct thing to do for the club was to blow the entire thing up - not re-sign the Sedins and to either back up Kesler as the re-tool or just trade him before JB took over.   Hindsight can be a b!tch . 

Edited February 7, 2022 by IBatch

[HKSR]

35 minutes ago, IBatch said:

How can you call TT a win?  He'd only be a "win" if we re-signed him (which i was against but still - losing picks and prospects for what exactly?)  He barely helped our team down the stretch (yes he scored but we still lost most of them anyways) and was almost a complete no-show in the playoffs.   Also neither Schmidt trade is a W  .... it would be generous to call them a draw.  Context matters - re-signing Tanev was the W....so minus 5 to the win column.   Every trade had a different reverberation.   Most of them not significant but the ones that were - he lost. 

 

   Picks earlier are always better ... that way that player is one year closer to making it .. Schmidt deal number one HUGE loss ... number two still a loss / maybe a draw for damage control only.  

 

What you should have added was more "insignificant".   Most of the minor deals are just that - skews the overall rankings.  

 

.Also how is Kesler a win?   Top C in the league...huge L which is worth probably 10 of your W's combined.   Just make him play - how many Selke nominations did he get with ANA again?  

 

The Kesler trade with context was bad.   And the Bonino trade was also a L not a W.    Don't want to piss on your parade but this is mostly subjective.    

 

Edit:  Also will say i forgave him right away for the Kesler trade.   It wasn't his fault - that was on MG for letting things slide so badly.    The correct thing to do for the club was to blow the entire thing up - not re-sign the Sedins and to either back up Kesler as the re-tool or just trade him before JB took over.   Hindsight can be a b!tch . 

You could swing 5,6, even 7 trades to a loss and GMJB would still have a winning trade record.  All I'm getting at is that he did a lot better in trades than people give him credit for.  If you didn't actually do the exercise of reviewing his trades, you'd think he won 6 and lost 44 of them.

[Kevin Biestra]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Jimmy Carson who would have thought that though - did it on two different teams ... then died down to just respectable.   Sure would love to get consecutive 100 point seasons from EP - even with different eras, two 85-90 point years would be nice. ... 207 points and 104 goals in two years ... wow! 

 

Yeah we had Carson when he was 25 but he was completely finished by that age...watched the 94 run from the press box.  At age 25 Gary Leeman went from 51 goals and 95 points to 29 points the next year...completely finished by the time we had him at 30.

 

 

[alt kilgore]

12 hours ago, Viper007 said:

I like how you only point the end of not having a good prospect pool?  During the middle there we were Top 3 with the prospect pool.  Prospect pool changes so much after the prospects start making the team.  This is such a bad take just to make your "narrative" look good.

 

 

12 hours ago, Viper007 said:

When 4 are actually core players, ya I'm fine with it.  A team is not just made of drafted players.  Need to shed a bit of cap, and hopefully not overspend on players.  We need more consistency in our forwards.  Right now, 2 of our core members are in down years.  If they were producing even at 50% more than they are right now, we'd be doing a lot better and would probably be in a playoff spot right now, tbh.

 

So....comparing the state of the prospect pool at the beginning of JBs tenure, and where it was at the end of it is not fair.  But projecting that the team actually would be better today if somehow, some way, the players JB assembled were "producing even at 50% more" is not reaching into the hypothetical?  To make your own "narrative look good"?

 

I could also add to my "narrative" in that IF he had a high rating for prospects in the mid part of his tenure.....whaaa happened?  How did he manage to pilfer that away with not much team improvement at the end to show for it?

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by kilgore

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, HKSR said:

You could swing 5,6, even 7 trades to a loss and GMJB would still have a winning trade record.  All I'm getting at is that he did a lot better in trades than people give him credit for.  If you didn't actually do the exercise of reviewing his trades, you'd think he won 6 and lost 44 of them.

You've made a thread that really opens you up to criticism and for that i apologize.   But not all trades are equal and don't merit a one for one.    For me personally don't blame him for the Kesler trades - but both really were underwhelming and can't be called wins.    All three of Bieksa, Hansen's and Burrows could be callled wins though - because wow that's a lot of cap opening up and thanks for your service, and thanks for actually waiving...Garrison was a win too.    Trying to demonstrate Benning was some sort of trading god is a total disservice to those in the past that actually were though - like Quin and hate to say it but Keenan as well.    IMO personal opinion JB made the most out of lemons.   And mostly got lemons back.  Name ONE trade - just one that he actually made a difference?   Over and this is the first time i've ever said this because unlike some i knew this was going to take a long long time - over his 8 years as a GM that was actually a real win!  As significant.   You can't do that.  

 

Edit: His most impactful trade was for sure with Miller.   So there is one trade that actually made a difference.   How much we still don't know.   From a management viewpoint likely the wrong one if a cup was the goal - playoffs?  Well he also had to double down twice - once for TT/ a second and Madden who at the time was ranked 53rd best prospect in the world (like a first rounder really lol) and then his master stroke which i actually didn't mind or expect at the time but is still too early to tell in OEL and Garland. Sure wish Pat Quin was still around can say that much. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by IBatch

[HKSR]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

You've made a thread that really opens you up to criticism and for that i apologize.   But not all trades are equal and don't merit a one for one.    For me personally don't blame him for the Kesler trades - but both really were underwhelming and can't be called wins.    All three of Bieksa, Hansen's and Burrows could be callled wins though - because wow that's a lot of cap opening up and thanks for your service, and thanks for actually waiving...Garrison was a win too.    Trying to demonstrate Benning was some sort of trading god is a total disservice to those in the past that actually were though - like Quin and hate to say it but Keenan as well.    IMO personal opinion JB made the most out of lemons.   And mostly got lemons back.  Name ONE trade - just one that he actually made a difference?   Over and this is the first time i've ever said this because unlike some i knew this was going to take a long long time - over his 8 years as a GM that was actually a real win!  As significant.   You can't do that.  

I don't think GMJB is a trading god, but nor do I think he's as terrible as some people make him out to be.  Which was the point of this thread. 

 

You don't feel the JT Miller trade was a significant, home run, trade?

[Kevin Biestra]

41 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sure wish Pat Quin was still around can say that much. 

 

Quinn was a legend.  I already listed all the quality pieces that had to be given up painfully between 1989 and 1994 to get to that game 7.  People forget he also did that with an expansion draft and losing Larionov to bad luck / outside policies.  Imagine if Krutov had come over and played like Makarov instead of like...I dunno, Jake Virtanen.

[IBatch]

1 minute ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Quinn was a legend.  I already listed all the quality pieces that had to be given up painfully between 1989 and 1994 to get to that game 7.  People forget he also did that with an expansion draft and losing Larionov to bad luck / outside policies.  Imagine if Krutov had come over and played like Makarov instead of like...I dunno, Jake Virtanen.

Yep.   I really can't think of a GM that has a better pulse on the team.   Was also a very good coach for us.   

[IBatch]

43 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I don't think GMJB is a trading god, but nor do I think he's as terrible as some people make him out to be.  Which was the point of this thread. 

 

You don't feel the JT Miller trade was a significant, home run, trade?

I don't think he was that bad either - just average.   

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, HKSR said:

I don't think GMJB is a trading god, but nor do I think he's as terrible as some people make him out to be.  Which was the point of this thread. 

 

You don't feel the JT Miller trade was a significant, home run, trade?

Peace HKSR, JB wasn't all that bad....really doubt 1/2 the GMs in the league would have managed much better. 

[HKSR]

30 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Peace HKSR, JB wasn't all that bad....really doubt 1/2 the GMs in the league would have managed much better. 

Hehe... Peace.

[Viper007]

4 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

 

 

So....comparing the state of the prospect pool at the beginning of JBs tenure, and where it was at the end of it is not fair.  But projecting that the team actually would be better today if somehow, some way, the players JB assembled were "producing even at 50% more" is not reaching into the hypothetical?  To make your own "narrative look good"?

 

I could also add to my "narrative" in that IF he had a high rating for prospects in the mid part of his tenure.....whaaa happened?  How did he manage to pilfer that away with not much team improvement at the end to show for it?

 

 

It wasn't the beginning, it was the middle of his tenure.  Producing at a 50% more isn't hypothetical, because they've produced at that clip and even more.  If you compare the beginning to now, the teams record is better so I have no clue what you're trying to say.

[alt kilgore]

59 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

It wasn't the beginning, it was the middle of his tenure.  Producing at a 50% more isn't hypothetical, because they've produced at that clip and even more.  If you compare the beginning to now, the teams record is better so I have no clue what you're trying to say.

 

I have no idea of what your point is.  Yes...we had a higher rating for our prospect pool in his mid tenure, than the beginning or end where it went from 29th up to 3rd (I'll take your word) back down to 29th.  I acknowledged that. So what?  Its about what he did with that pool. And how he set the team up to take advantage. Not keep trading away those prospects and picks for plugs and a pipe dream.

 

"If you compare the beginning to now, the teams record is better so I have no clue what you're trying to say."

 

If you mean team point production and standing. JBs first season we got to 101 points, using the team that Gillis built.  I don't know exactly where we were on Feb 7th 2015 in points, but I can guarantee that it was higher than it is now in Feb. 7 2022. 

 

And yes, the 50% was your hypothetical wish number. 

"IF they were producing even at 50% more than they are right now, we'd be doing a lot better and would probably be in a playoff spot right now"

 

If......Loui would have played as projected by JB's pro scouting skills, we may have had another run

 

If....Gudbranson would have played as projected by JB's pro scouting skills, we'd be in better shape on the back end

 

If....JB didn't "run out of time" we may have had not lost Madden, a second, Toffoli, Tanev, and Markstrom all for nothing.

 

If .....I wasn't such a sucker for these kinds of posts, I'd have way more time in my day to get more productive stuff done.