Armchair GM's help me out! (Discussion) (Player evaluations)

[J.I.A.H.N]

OK Lady's and Gents, I need help! Go figure, Mr. Know it all needs help!

So these are players from teams that have multiple RHD young Dmen that "May" be available for trade.

 

A definition for 

 

1 )  Blue chip prospect   .................for me this is the very top of the prospects that are expected to be Stars/Elite NHL players............Drivers

2 )  A - prospect  ............................This group is solid 3/4 type Dmen.............not elite/not stars, but solid long term journeymen

3 )  B - prospect, ............................B - prospects are prospects that have a chance to to 5/6 Dmen with shorter careers and lesser minutes, one dimensional

4 )  C - prospect .............................these players are long shots, who may progress and be late bloomers, who may eek out a short NHL career 

 

I think I know, but would like your input to clarify!

 

Then, if you would put some ranking to these prospects............again, I think I have it, but would not mind the input..............I will thank you know for your work!

 

NYR...........................Braden Schneider......A prospect

NYR...........................Nils Ludqvist..............A/B

LA..............................Helge Grans...............B/A

LA..............................Brock Faber................B/A

LA..............................Brandt Clarke..............Blue Chip

LA..............................Sean Durzi..................B/A

COL...........................Justin Barron...............B/A

COL............................Drew Helleson.............B/A

 

Please have a go at it! I appreciate It!

 

Regards J.I.A.H.N.

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[J.I.A.H.N]

PS..............Are the definitions right? Do you agree with the wording........generally!

[Rick Blight]

14 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

PS..............Are the definitions right? Do you agree with the wording........generally!

Jan, I am not sure I completely agree with your definitions. I see your definitions for the A,B and C prospects as "projected floors" at this stage of their development. Otherwise, aren't you saying that all #1 and #2 D-men only come from Elite Prospects?

[J.I.A.H.N]

50 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

Jan, I am not sure I completely agree with your definitions. I see your definitions for the A,B and C prospects as "projected floors" at this stage of their development. Otherwise, aren't you saying that all #1 and #2 D-men only come from Elite Prospects? (Most do , but not all!)

I guess what I am saying is that, as a player develops he can move upward or downward, but he starts having a rating, and then he proceeds through his career with an up graded ranking, whether that be up , down or stationary..................but at present..............I think all the players ranked are at that level, and the ranking system works somewhat like that.

 

But I am asking, not telling

[Rick Blight]

2 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I guess what I am saying is that, as a player develops he can move upward or downward, but he starts having a rating, and then he proceeds through his career with an up graded ranking, whether that be up , down or stationary..................but at present..............I think all the players ranked are at that level, and the ranking system works somewhat like that.

 

But I am asking, not telling

I understand their projections change each and every year from the time these players go thru their Bantam draft until they are 23-25.

 

The players you have listed are all very young with the oldest being 23, they were all selected in either the 1st or second round so I would expect all of them to be at least projected to be a #3 at this point unless they have seriously tailed off since their draft year. I don't think any of them have so I would expect all to be at least an "A" prospect at this point in time. Team expectations would likely see their floors being 1 level lower. So when you rank these players as A/B or B/A you are pretty much saying the same thing I think.

[JamesB]

3 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

PS..............Are the definitions right? Do you agree with the wording........generally!

Personally, I would say that we only need three categories for defense prospects: A prospects, B prospects, and C prospects.

 

When it comes to defense, I would say that, at the prospect stage, no one is blue chip. There is always a lot of uncertainty. Even with Quinn Hughes,  for example, there was a lot of uncertainty until this year, and he is past the "prospect" stage.  (His offensive skills were always good but his defensive skill were a question mark before this year.)

 

I would say that an "A" prospect is someone who projects as a likely top pairing D and probably no worse than a second pairing D. Of course,  you always hope he becomes an elite player,  but that is never something you can never be confident about at the prospect stage. 

 

I would say that a "B" prospect is someone who projects as a legitimate NHL D-man -- maybe top 4 but at least 3rd pairing.

 

I would say that a "C" prospect is someone who might become an NHL regular, but is less than 50-50 to make it. 

 

Right now, in the Canuck farm system, Juulsen, Woo, and Brisebois are probably all "C" prospects. I would say Rathbone is a B prospect. When Hughes was in college I would have rated him as an "A" prospect.  

 

I agree that Schneider is an "A" prospect but guys like that are hard to get. If Vancouver does trade Miller to the Rangers I hope Schneider comes back the other way.  Part of it is that Schneider is in the first year of his entry level deal and will be cheap  for the next two years and probably reasonable for the next few after than. And, at age 20 he is already a good NHL D-man, which is pretty rare.  

 

Personally,  I think that Schneider plus a first would be a pretty good return for Miller. Not a steal, but pretty good (and a lot better than what Montreal got for Toffoli). 

 

 

 

 

[flickyoursedin]

Clarke

Schnieder

Barron

Durzi 

Grans

Lundvist

Helleson

Faber

 

 and just for friendly debate even though he’s left handed I’d rather Byram then all these guys if Colorado wanted to add to there roster without subtracting.

[JM_]

10 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

OK Lady's and Gents, I need help! Go figure, Mr. Know it all needs help!

my ears are burning

 

10 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So these are players from teams that have multiple RHD young Dmen that "May" be available for trade.

 

A definition for 

 

1 )  Blue chip prospect   .................for me this is the very top of the prospects that are expected to be Stars/Elite NHL players............Drivers

2 )  A - prospect  ............................This group is solid 3/4 type Dmen.............not elite/not stars, but solid long term journeymen

3 )  B - prospect, ............................B - prospects are prospects that have a chance to to 5/6 Dmen with shorter careers and lesser minutes, one dimensional

4 )  C - prospect .............................these players are long shots, who may progress and be late bloomers, who may eek out a short NHL career 

 

 

I think your definitions are fine, I'd maybe add "5) reclamation project" to the list.

 

So much depend on the development environment, I don't know how reliable ranking these kids in this way is. Outside of actual NHL performance time its really hard to say who's blue chip vs. A-prospect, e.g. So much depends on the development path.

 

Take Lundkvist eg. maybe he performs better under Boudreau's style than Schneider, or fits with OEL better. We can't know until they play the games. 

 

Thats why we need a solid roster player back in any Miller deal, everything else has a lot of risk to it. 

 

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

my ears are burning

 

I think your definitions are fine, I'd maybe add "5) reclamation project" to the list.

 

So much depend on the development environment, I don't know how reliable ranking these kids in this way is. Outside of actual NHL performance time its really hard to say who's blue chip vs. A-prospect, e.g. So much depends on the development path.

 

Take Lundkvist eg. maybe he performs better under Boudreau's style than Schneider, or fits with OEL better. We can't know until they play the games. 

 

Thats why we need a solid roster player back in any Miller deal, everything else has a lot of risk to it. 

 

 

 

@Rick Blight @JamesB @flickyoursedin @JM_

 

So, this question all came about as part of a debate on HFB's where just about all NY Ranger fans are calling Schneider a Blue Chip prospect. I differ with them, as I have never seen him called that by anyone other then there own fan base.

 

I will look no further than their own farm system where they had Fox, Lundqvist, and Schneider all come up in the past several years. So, I will agree with them that Schneider appears stronger than Lundqvist, but he is no where near in the same caliber as Fox. (and never was)

 

I asked their fan base, when was Schneider ever deemed a Blue Chip prospect? they have never answered me. (LOL)

 

I see Blue Chip as a special designation held for very elite players, ones who are really no brainer types, that will slide right into the line up their first year after turning pro, and will show very well right away........... they usually have a very complete game, and as a defenseman, usually are able to handle all scenario's

 

Players I see as Blue Chip are, Fox, Maker, Hughes, Hiskanen, McAvoy probably Seider

 

I deem Schneider in the next group down, as an A-prospect, where Carlo, Durzi, Marino, Barron, Lundqvist etc are placed. 

 

Now, I recognize that Blue Chip, A-prospect, B-prospect, etc are words used more for prospects than young pros that have played up, but I think you can use those designations for the first year or so, until they make the club full time. 

 

Schneider, for all his worth, just does not meet the qualifications of the first group, and never has. Schneider is in that second group. He may be near the top of that group, but I just do not see him reaching the Blue Chip status. More a complimentary type player.

 

I bring this up as I try to put together a a scenario and trade with the Rangers, with Schneider in it. They are quite firm that he will not be moved as he is rare and a Blue Chip prospect.........I don't see it! So I was wondering if I had my definitions right or not.......

 

As you know, I am usually pretty firm on my opinions, but I really started to wonder, if I had it wrong ????

 

Let me just slide back in again...........I see a A-prospect being a top 2 line, top 4 pairing type player, with Blue Chip being the elite types within those top players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[Rick Blight]

50 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

@Rick Blight @JamesB @flickyoursedin @JM_

 

So, this question all came about as part of a debate on HFB's where just about all NY Ranger fans are calling Schneider a Blue Chip prospect. I differ with them, as I have never seen him called that by anyone other then there own fan base.

 

I will look no further than their own farm system where they had Fox, Lundqvist, and Schneider all come up in the past several years. So, I will agree with them that Schneider appears stronger than Lundqvist, but he is no where near in the same caliber as Fox. (and never was)

 

I asked their fan base, when was Schneider ever deemed a Blue Chip prospect? they have never answered me. (LOL)

 

I see Blue Chip as a special designation held for very elite players, ones who are really no brainer types, that will slide right into the line up their first year after turning pro, and will show very well right away........... they usually have a very complete game, and as a defenseman, usually are able to handle all scenario's

 

Players I see as Blue Chip are, Fox, Maker, Hughes, Hiskanen, McAvoy probably Seider

 

I deem Schneider in the next group down, as an A-prospect, where Carlo, Durzi, Marino, Barron, Lundqvist etc are placed. 

 

Now, I recognize that Blue Chip, A-prospect, B-prospect, etc are words used more for prospects than young pros that have played up, but I think you can use those designations for the first year or so, until they make the club full time. 

 

Schneider, for all his worth, just does not meet the qualifications of the first group, and never has. Schneider is in that second group. He may be near the top of that group, but I just do not see him reaching the Blue Chip status. More a complimentary type player.

 

I bring this up as I try to put together a a scenario and trade with the Rangers, with Schneider in it. They are quite firm that he will not be moved as he is rare and a Blue Chip prospect.........I don't see it! So I was wondering if I had my definitions right or not.......

 

As you know, I am usually pretty firm on my opinions, but I really started to wonder, if I had it wrong ????

 

Let me just slide back in again...........I see a A-prospect being a top 2 line, top 4 pairing type player, with Blue Chip being the elite types within those top players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know Jan, there aren't many 20 year old D-men playing in the NHL at that age. Add on that he has played 20+ minutes in his past 3 of 4 games, scoring at almost 0.5 PPG, and having 9 hits in his past three games and I think you may have a Blue Chip argument. The only thing I could say against him being Blue Chip is that he may not become a real driver of play but I really think he is a heck of a prospect.

[flickyoursedin]

59 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

@Rick Blight @JamesB @flickyoursedin @JM_

 

So, this question all came about as part of a debate on HFB's where just about all NY Ranger fans are calling Schneider a Blue Chip prospect. I differ with them, as I have never seen him called that by anyone other then there own fan base.

 

I will look no further than their own farm system where they had Fox, Lundqvist, and Schneider all come up in the past several years. So, I will agree with them that Schneider appears stronger than Lundqvist, but he is no where near in the same caliber as Fox. (and never was)

 

I asked their fan base, when was Schneider ever deemed a Blue Chip prospect? they have never answered me. (LOL)

 

I see Blue Chip as a special designation held for very elite players, ones who are really no brainer types, that will slide right into the line up their first year after turning pro, and will show very well right away........... they usually have a very complete game, and as a defenseman, usually are able to handle all scenario's

 

Players I see as Blue Chip are, Fox, Maker, Hughes, Hiskanen, McAvoy probably Seider

 

I deem Schneider in the next group down, as an A-prospect, where Carlo, Durzi, Marino, Barron, Lundqvist etc are placed. 

 

Now, I recognize that Blue Chip, A-prospect, B-prospect, etc are words used more for prospects than young pros that have played up, but I think you can use those designations for the first year or so, until they make the club full time. 

 

Schneider, for all his worth, just does not meet the qualifications of the first group, and never has. Schneider is in that second group. He may be near the top of that group, but I just do not see him reaching the Blue Chip status. More a complimentary type player.

 

I bring this up as I try to put together a a scenario and trade with the Rangers, with Schneider in it. They are quite firm that he will not be moved as he is rare and a Blue Chip prospect.........I don't see it! So I was wondering if I had my definitions right or not.......

 

As you know, I am usually pretty firm on my opinions, but I really started to wonder, if I had it wrong ????

 

Let me just slide back in again...........I see a A-prospect being a top 2 line, top 4 pairing type player, with Blue Chip being the elite types within those top players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing with Schnieder is the skating, passing and NHL body is evident. So he most likely becomes a top 4 dman at the NHL level but his offence is limited. He’s not going to produce like the guys you mentioned as blue chip prospects. Schnieder might be like a Chris Tanev type player extremely valuable to the team he’s on defensively but doesn’t produce much. Doesn’t mean he’s not a top 4 guy I guess. Kind of why I never liked grinding a team for a guy limited offensively in a trade when they seem to value his other intangibles more than they should with where he is in his career. I honestly feel like I like Barron from Colorado’s prospect pool more. I’d have put Barron ahead of Schnieder if the NYR didn’t call him up and hold his own already in the NHL. 

[Fanuck]

Let's make this easy JIAHN, we want Schneider in any deal with the Rangers, not Lundquist or any other of their d prospects/young players. 

 

I would take a long hard look at a Clarke proposal if LA was in the mix, but I don't see a fit there myself. 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Fanuck said:

Let's make this easy JIAHN, we want Schneider in any deal with the Rangers, not Lundquist or any other of their d prospects/young players. 

 

I would take a long hard look at a Clarke proposal if LA was in the mix, but I don't see a fit there myself. 

for me it depends on the whole package. If we could get Lundkvist and Cuylle and a 1st, vs Schnider and a 1st (or maybe 2nd) I'd go with the Lundqvist deal. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 hours ago, Rick Blight said:

I don't know Jan, there aren't many 20 year old D-men playing in the NHL at that age. Add on that he has played 20+ minutes in his past 3 of 4 games, scoring at almost 0.5 PPG, and having 9 hits in his past three games and I think you may have a Blue Chip argument. The only thing I could say against him being Blue Chip is that he may not become a real driver of play but I really think he is a heck of a prospect.

Great comments Rick

 

I am sort of the same corner as you on this...........I think he is a really good top of the A-prospect, and will be a very good complimentary player.........but not a driver

 

And there is nothing wrong with that, and does not make him any less valuable

 

I just think there are more Schneiders in this world that Fox's, hence the value to obtain is different

 

Solid post....Thanks

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 hours ago, flickyoursedin said:

The thing with Schnieder is the skating, passing and NHL body is evident. So he most likely becomes a top 4 dman at the NHL level but his offence is limited. He’s not going to produce like the guys you mentioned as blue chip prospects. Schnieder might be like a Chris Tanev type player extremely valuable to the team he’s on defensively but doesn’t produce much. Doesn’t mean he’s not a top 4 guy I guess. Kind of why I never liked grinding a team for a guy limited offensively in a trade when they seem to value his other intangibles more than they should with where he is in his career. I honestly feel like I like Barron from Colorado’s prospect pool more. I’d have put Barron ahead of Schnieder if the NYR didn’t call him up and hold his own already in the NHL. 

I have heard a lot of good things about Barron, and would be interested in what kind of deal it would take to get him..........

 

On Schneider, I totally agree with you, and I hope I never said he would not be a top 4...........very much a Chris Tanev with size and more scoring

 

I think he will settle in as a #3..a very solid number 3, who can play up...........

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 hours ago, Fanuck said:

Let's make this easy JIAHN, we want Schneider in any deal with the Rangers, not Lundquist or any other of their d prospects/young players. 

 

I would take a long hard look at a Clarke proposal if LA was in the mix, but I don't see a fit there myself. 

Yeah, I with you on any NYR trade...................I do not think we  could get Clarke though

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 hours ago, JM_ said:

for me it depends on the whole package. If we could get Lundkvist and Cuylle and a 1st, vs Schnider and a 1st (or maybe 2nd) I'd go with the Lundqvist deal. 

Sorry Jim, not me!

 

I want Schneider or nothing

 

and that may be a deal breaker for the Rangers.........but there are other options out there

 

I like what I have read about Barron, and I really like Grans, all though, I don't know alot about him.......

 

I would be interested what LA would put together for Boeser..................Grans and a LA 1st? might be enough for me............LA, "if " they are to get in, will be an early exit

 

so the pick should be a 16 to 20 pick IMHO

 

I think when I look at that, I look at Nemec and Jiricek and see if I can move up and get one of them, if not I would look to take Chesley, but I would love to move up and get one of the other 2, as a 1st option

 

I am sure JR has other idea's..............maybe someone more NHL ready? .....................IDNK

[Rick Blight]

7 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Great comments Rick

 

I am sort of the same corner as you on this...........I think he is a really good top of the A-prospects, and will be a very good complimentary player.........but not a driver

 

And there is nothing wrong with that, and does not make him any less valuable

 

I just think there are more Schneiders in this word that Fox's, hence the value to obtain is different

 

Solid post....Thanks

See, I would no longer consider Fox to be a prospect bur rather an established Norris Trophy winning star and I don't think you want to compare the current Fox to the current Schneider. If we look at when Fox was the same age as Schneider, would you consider him to be a Blue Chip prospect? I probably would but I am not sure I would even rate him ahead of Schneider at the same age. I know there were extenuating circumstances when Fox was traded at Schneider's current age but let's remember the return Calgary got for him or what Carolina got for him the next year.  Are either of these trades comparable to what it may take to acquire Schneider ++?

New York Rangers acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Adam Fox	April 30, 2019	2019 2nd round pick 2020 conditional 3rd round pick

Calgary Flames acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Noah Hanifin Elias Lindholm	June 23, 2018	Dougie Hamilton Micheal Ferland Adam Fox

 

 

[JM_]

8 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Sorry Jim, not me!

 

I want Schneider or nothing

 

and that may be a deal breaker for the Rangers.........but there are other options out there

 

I like what I have read about Barron, and I really like Grans, all though, I don't know alot about him.......

 

I would be interested what LA would put together for Boeser..................Grans and a LA 1st? might be enough for me............LA, "if " they are to get in, will be an early exit

 

so the pick should be a 16 to 20 pick IMHO

 

I think when I look at that, I look at Nemec and Jiricek and see if I can move up and get one of them, if not I would look to take Chesley, but I would love to move up and get one of the other 2, as a 1st option

 

I am sure JR has other idea's..............maybe someone more NHL ready? .....................IDNK

do you think maybe, just maybe, we're hyper-focusing on Schneider? is he really the answer to our right side issues? is he the only answer?

 

when I read the scouting on Schneider vs Lundkvist, it seems to me like maybe Schneider is the lower ceiling safer bet. Lundkvist seems to me to be a potential higher scoring d, and we can still go out and get stay at home Schenn's. 

 

I also like the idea of shoring up some of our F depth as well with some big kids like Cuylle. 

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

See, I would no longer consider Fox to be a prospect bur rather an established Norris Trophy winning star and I don't think you want to compare the current Fox to the current Schneider. If we look at when Fox was the same age as Schneider, would you consider him to be a Blue Chip prospect? I probably would but I am not sure I would even rate him ahead of Schneider at the same age. I know there were extenuating circumstances when Fox was traded at Schneider's current age but let's remember the return Calgary got for him or what Carolina got for him the next year.  Are either of these trades comparable to what it may take to acquire Schneider ++?

New York Rangers acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Adam Fox	April 30, 2019	2019 2nd round pick 2020 conditional 3rd round pick

Calgary Flames acquire	Date	Carolina Hurricanes acquire
Noah Hanifin Elias Lindholm	June 23, 2018	Dougie Hamilton Micheal Ferland Adam Fox

 

 

I agree Fox is not a prospect any more..........for sure

 

But he was when these trades went down, and a highly thought of one too! But in both cases, his refusal to sign made him less valuable to the trading team.......with lots of risk

 

But he did get included, so there was lots of interest, even though everyone knew he wanted to sign in NY

 

Calgary was drooling over him as a prospect

 

Carolina was too, but all the players in the Calgary / Carolina trade were good players.it was a hockey trade............was just hoping on Fox