Message from the top?

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, ShawnAntoski said:

Yeah, has been the one constant, in all the years.  Perhaps, a big reason why JR demanded what he did - full autonomy.  

That "full autonomy" was granted when were crap under Green.  I think our owner's support of the JR's full autonomy has changed over this run with BB coaching.  Like the situation with Miller.  If we are following JR's initial plan then there is no way Miller is still here after this Monday.  

[Nucker 67]

Remember when JR was hired and he went on about how the Canucks aren't in that part of the cycle (playoff team). He said they want to get younger and faster, build up the prospects, saying there's a lot of work to do.  Sounded real good.

 

It's been almost 4 months and I'm not even sure they've decided yet what they want to do. 

 

Meanwhile, teams like DET, NJ, LA, ANA, etc are building power houses. Canucks are relying on Miller and Demko to win all of their games. 

 

 

 

 

[Should've_Drafted_Kopitar]

12 hours ago, Provost said:

All those times those other players put the team on their backs to secure a win?  When exactly has that happened with any regularity, please illuminate as the reality is exactly what I said?  This graphic is a few games old... but is even more true now with Miller's continued points streak.  When he hasn't gotten a point, we have won just on one game all year.  Thankfully that is rare and he has gotten points in 45 of 61 games.  Go run those numbers for the other players you mentioned.

Why do you hate the Canucks so much that you want to cheerlead for them to continue to be a non-playoff team?  Honestly, you should go root for another team if you hate the idea of the Canucks ever being a playoff team or contender.  What's up with that?

Most of your post is just ranting, please find quotes for all the things you posted I have said.  Where did I want an entirely new core?  Where did I say I don't want us in the playoffs until 2027?  My post you even quoted said that we have no intention of rebuilding and would be trading for actual hockey players to help right away and not picks.  You straight up lied. 

How $&!#ty of a person do you have to be to try to make yourself feel better by attacking someone else online by being a complete liar?  

Where did I say I don't want the team to succeed?  Where did I say I hate the team?  You posted that "This will sound like an attack, but honestly it's not."  If that is true then why spend the entire post spewing pure lies, fabrications, and venom?  What's up?

It is also pretty ironic that 24hrs ago you posted calling me brilliant... but now I hate the team and want them to lose.

 

Imagine an 82 game season without him next year 

[Nucker 67]

Just now, Should've_Drafted_Kopitar said:

Imagine an 82 game season without him next year 

Might even get a 1st overall pick

 

I want the Canucks future to be bright, lots of high level prospects and young players on the team and in the system. Fast and skilled.  But it feels like they're going to go all in on a 29 year old having the season of his life.  It doesn't make sense, they aren't ready to compete and they're screwing their future.  The D is also not good, it needs to be revamped. 

 

 

[Provost]

5 minutes ago, Should've_Drafted_Kopitar said:

Imagine an 82 game season without him next year 

It wouldn’t be the same roster is pretty much the entire point… so too many variables at play to really imagine anything with much certainty.  We don’t know what the return would be and what players would be signed with available cap space.

 

One very good point is imagine basically this exact same roster without him (and maybe also Horvat) in two years if we let him walk for nothing at that point?  That would look pretty grim as we couldn’t replace what they bring purely through free agency.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Might even get a 1st overall pick

 

I want the Canucks future to be bright, lots of high level prospects and young players on the team and in the system. Fast and skilled.  But it feels like they're going to go all in on a 29 year old having the season of his life.  It doesn't make sense, they aren't ready to compete and they're screwing their future.  The D is also not good, it needs to be revamped. 

 

 

Miller will actually be on the wrong side of 30 when his next contract kicks in.  

[Warhippy]

Here's the message we need to focus on.  Our end of the season schedule has maybe 2 or 3 supposed "gimme team's on the schedule.  We lost to one last night, a so called "gimme game"

 

As the standings currently sit, we are sandwiched in between teams that are arguably deeper than us, better than us and have been slumping so are due for a break out while we've been wildly over achieving in comparison to our first 2 months of the season.  The Ducks, Jets, Stars and Vegas are all within 3 points of us, ahead or behind; and some with games at hand.  Edmonton might be able to be caught but what then?  We're a 2 or 3 loss streak away from blowing the playoffs entirely and I'd argue that we're already at that stage.

 

Miller has played himself in to a $9.5+ million contract and without Miller recording a point we're something like 2-23-4.  Now take away Demko as well.

 

What kind of team are we?  The message from the top should be simple.  Our best player will be to expensive to retain, without one of these two players we're drafting top 5.  We are going to make these tough moves because these are the facts.  If the players feel demoralized by these facts they need to suck it up and play better because these are simple undeniable facts.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Warhippy

[Nucker 67]

Imagine the returns if they traded Miller, Boeser and Pearson, and maybe even one of OEL, Hamonic or Myers.

 

Could add some good prospects and young players, plus a couple of Top 50 draft picks.

 

Next season could be rough, but they could also end up with a high pick at the 2023 Draft

 

Now, add those good players to Pettersson, Horvat, Garland, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Hughes, Demko over the next few years.

 

Contenders in 2024/25

 

or

 

Re-sign Miller and not be a contender because there just isn't enough money to bring in better quality support players. Then, in 2024/25, Miller will be in his 30s and slowly declining. Oh, but no worry, he still has 5 years left at $9. Good times.  

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Miller will actually be on the wrong side of 30 when his next contract kicks in.  

30...damn what about Jagr?   Heard he's thinking of making another comeback in his comments to Ovi when he passed him.  Wrong side of 50?!  Making me feel really really Old Alf lol. 

[alt kilgore]

4 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Imagine the returns if they traded Miller, Boeser and Pearson, and maybe even one of OEL, Hamonic or Myers.

 

Could add some good prospects and young players, plus a couple of Top 50 draft picks.

 

Next season could be rough, but they could also end up with a high pick at the 2023 Draft

 

Now, add those good players to Pettersson, Horvat, Garland, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Hughes, Demko over the next few years.

 

Contenders in 2024/25

 

or

 

Re-sign Miller and not be a contender because there just isn't enough money to bring in better quality support players. Then, in 2024/25, Miller will be in his 30s and slowly declining. Oh, but no worry, he still has 5 years left at $9. Good times.  

 

 

I just want it done already.  I know we may have to wait until summer. maybe even longer to pull most of the big moves, but I kinda hope he goes for it this TD.  As long as the return is substantial enough. 

 

I really think Boeser has put himself on the block. Sad to see such a popular player decline like that. He just looks so slow out there. Especially for 7.5 milion. More than that, he's flubbing shots, and making poor decisions with the puck.  Not only did he miff on 3 or 4 glorious chances, he lost possession quite a bit, stalling more than one forecheck in the offensive zone. And he was the one, if I'm not mistaken, who passed the puck into Bo's feet on the PP, leading to the turnover and one goal against.  I say if other teams still value Brock highly, and thoughts of BB's big All Star splash still in their heads, trade him now, if we can get a first round pick and a prospect.

 

And if we get a deal we can't refuse for Miller, then bye too.  Even though my preference is for JR to be able to finagle deals around Miller instead.

 

I think Petey and Quinn will just have to suck it up, and play through another rebuild.  If JR can somehow manage to get back multiple 1sts, and some good young prospects, especially on defense, for a bundle of vets here, it may not take all that long to get back into contention as the league is getting younger all the time. If they pick carefully, we could have new young contributing players after one or two years to complement our present young stars.

 

 

 

 

[ShawnAntoski]

7 hours ago, Alflives said:

That "full autonomy" was granted when were crap under Green.  I think our owner's support of the JR's full autonomy has changed over this run with BB coaching.  Like the situation with Miller.  If we are following JR's initial plan then there is no way Miller is still here after this Monday.  

Our impatient owner, has obviously needed some time to grow up as NHL owner - the disastrous start to the season, after an expensive off season has hopefully, taught Aquaman some important lesson - don't be cheap when hiring your executive staff.  Would rather prefer Aquaman when compared to McCaw: who was not involved to the same (rumoured) degree, that Aquaman was.  Anyways, JR is driving this bus and this whole thing will be on him - which he seems to be ok with.

[Canucklehead73]

I think the fact they have not added anyone to help is that the message is they are looking to next year....

[Baggins]

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Here's the message we need to focus on.  Our end of the season schedule has maybe 2 or 3 supposed "gimme team's on the schedule.  We lost to one last night, a so called "gimme game"

Threre's no such thing as a gimme game. The Wings have beat Vegas, the Rangers, the Canes, etc. New Jersey has beaten the Caps, the Canes, the Panthers, etc. Sometimes bad teams have good games and/or good teams bad games. Sometimes a good team goes in with your gimme mentality and just bury themselves. The mistake of believing in gimme games.

 

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

As the standings currently sit, we are sandwiched in between teams that are arguably deeper than us, better than us and have been slumping so are due for a break out while we've been wildly over achieving in comparison to our first 2 months of the season.  The Ducks, Jets, Stars and Vegas are all within 3 points of us, ahead or behind; and some with games at hand.  Edmonton might be able to be caught but what then?  We're a 2 or 3 loss streak away from blowing the playoffs entirely and I'd argue that we're already at that stage.

When Rutherford took over he said he saw what everybody else saw in the first twenty games, an "underperforming" team. He said it was obvious they were better than what they were doing, how much better, nobody really knows that yet. Well, since then we've seen how much better. He even says, the team might even better than most thought it should be. Rather the opposite of your version that they're over achieving since the coaching change rather than under achieving under Green. Go to about 1:40 in this video if you don't believe me...

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Miller has played himself in to a $9.5+ million contract and without Miller recording a point we're something like 2-23-4.  Now take away Demko as well.

 

 He has. But why panic before they explore what an extension would look like? That cup window could be open far sooner than you believe if Rutherford is right and Miller retained. I've maintained for much of the season that this team is closer than most think. That isn't to say the team can't be improved, but we certainly don't need to make moves to tank.

 

11 hours ago, Warhippy said:

What kind of team are we?  The message from the top should be simple.  Our best player will be to expensive to retain, without one of these two players we're drafting top 5.  We are going to make these tough moves because these are the facts.  If the players feel demoralized by these facts they need to suck it up and play better because these are simple undeniable facts.

 

 Your "facts" are more your "fantasy". Watching the video above Rutherford disagrees with you completely, saying there's a lot to like about this team. Unlike many fans, he's not going to panic and tank the team out of fear. This isn't to say he doesn't want changes, but I don't don't believe he's planning on what you want. 

[IBatch]

On 3/17/2022 at 8:38 PM, stawns said:

players are more than used to seeing teammates come and go. Most of them have been dealing with it since they were 16/17.  

Don't tell Timra that or you might get some diatribe about how Dahlen getting traded ruined EPs confidence.     And now that EP and Hogs are "besties" imagine the CDC fallout from that.   

 

Your absolutely correct.  Anyone who thinks Max Domi should be reunited with Horvat because of what they did almost a decade ago should also give their heads a shake.  

[kloubek]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:08 PM, Baggins said:

Isn't that the same thing that was said after the Dec win streak? We're 22-9-5 since Boudreau took over. 

As a side note, this translates to a 50 wins, 20 losses, and about 12 ties pace. Good for 112 points on the year.

 

You know which teams outpace this? Florida, Carolina, and Colorado. That's it. Since Bruce took over, we are the 4th best team in the league, and that included the still struggling Pettersson at first.

 

That's with the roster we have now. It won't take many tweaks to potentially get us up to the top next season, so in my mind we are no longer rebuilding but just fine tuning. There's no need for panic.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, kloubek said:

As a side note, this translates to a 50 wins, 20 losses, and about 12 ties pace. Good for 112 points on the year.

 

You know which teams outpace this? Florida, Carolina, and Colorado. That's it. Since Bruce took over, we are the 4th best team in the league, and that included the still struggling Pettersson at first.

 

That's with the roster we have now. It won't take many tweaks to potentially get us up to the top next season, so in my mind we are no longer rebuilding but just fine tuning. There's no need for panic.

So we are opening a two to three year window by keeping Miller is what you're suggesting, right?  Trading him we postpone our window, but when it opens (JR predicted in 2 years) it's 5-7 years long.  It only makes good sense to have the window, when it opens, to stay open for a longer period, no?

 

[IBatch]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:48 PM, eeeeergh said:

I feel like the affect on the teams psyche depends on what they trade for. Obviously if they trade just for futures, then yeah, the teams going to feel like its a rebuilding phase and that management has given up on the season.

However, if they make a hockey trade, sending a good forward for a good defenseman, I don't see why that would reflect a lack of belief. I'm sure it would only be done in consultation with Bruce and what he feels the team needs anyway. 

Yes to the end paragraph.   They do ask the coaches input. 

[kloubek]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

So we are opening a two to three year window by keeping Miller is what you're suggesting, right?  Trading him we postpone our window, but when it opens (JR predicted in 2 years) it's 5-7 years long.  It only makes good sense to have the window, when it opens, to stay open for a longer period, no?

 

Well, as it pertains to the idea of the team NEEDING to get rid of bigger names, yes. I dont think that negates the fact our team still has holes - particularly on D, but I do think our core guys are generally sound, and our record proves it.

 

The thing is, if we want another stud on D we have to give up something. We don't have the same prospect pool we had a couple of years ago, so our chips are primarily on the team right now.

 

All I see at this point are hockey trades (as someone else suggested) to both fill our need on D and hopefully at the same time move out contracts that will hurt our ability to remain cap compliant. And if the idea is to re-sign Miller, those cap considerations become that much stronger.

[Baggins]

23 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So we are opening a two to three year window by keeping Miller is what you're suggesting, right?  Trading him we postpone our window, but when it opens (JR predicted in 2 years) it's 5-7 years long.  It only makes good sense to have the window, when it opens, to stay open for a longer period, no?

 

What makes you think it's only two or three years? If all our players were around Miller's age I'd agree it's likely to be a smallish window. But there's already high quality youth on the team on the team. Consider this, Chicago's last cup was 2015. Hossa was still a top six forward at 36 with 61 pts in 82 games that season and 17 pts in the 23 playoff games. Chicago's cups came when Hossa was 31, 34 and 36. Hossa played a moderately physical game, was defensively responsible, a pretty decent playmaker, and played on both pp and pk. His last ppg season was when he was 28. I get that many are worried about another Player Name debacle. But Miller and Player Name are very different players. Player Name was a non-physical goal scorer and was never much of a playmaker. His game depended heavily on others and without goal scoring he really didn't provide much. Miller plays an aggressive physical game and is the best playmaker among our forwards by a country mile. Player Name wasn't a line driver, he was a passenger depending heavily on his line. Miller makes those around him better because he's a complete player. Among all forwards in the league over the past three seasons Miller ranks 9th in assists just behind 33 yr old Marchand, and 11th in first assists. Kane (33 yrs old) is 2nd in the league for 1st assists over the past three seasons. These guys are line drivers. Line drivers don't tend to decline at the same rate as the goal scorers.

 

Given this teams record under Boudreau, a few smart moves and the window is open. Trading Miller for propsects and picks would only delay the window wasting more years of our quality younger players waitng to see if prospects and picks pan out. If Miller, and others, are moved for prospects and picks I'd say two years to open the window is rather optimistic.You're moving your best player, and prospects don't come with guarantees. The sooner our young guys get to the playoffs the longer the window will be open. That's why Chicago signed Hossa. To get that window open sooner for their young stars. Another thing to keep in mind is the Sedin era and it's decline. It took too long to build around them making for a small window, and too many core players in a similar age group makes for a really ugly rebuild. When Miller and Horvat are aging out Petey, Hughes, Demko, and Podz will all be in their prime. There's several years between now and then to draft and develop replacements and make trades to maintain the window.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

What makes you think it's only two or three years? If all our players were around Miller's age I'd agree it's likely to be a smallish window. But there's already high quality youth on the team on the team. Consider this, Chicago's last cup was 2015. Hossa was still a top six forward at 36 with 61 pts in 82 games that season and 17 pts in the 23 playoff games. Chicago's cups came when Hossa was 31, 34 and 36. Hossa played a moderately physical game, was defensively responsible, a pretty decent playmaker, and played on both pp and pk. His last ppg season was when he was 28. I get that many are worried about another Player Name debacle. But Miller and Player Name are very different players. Player Name was a non-physical goal scorer and was never much of a playmaker. His game depended heavily on others and without goal scoring he really didn't provide much. Miller plays an aggressive physical game and is the best playmaker among our forwards by a country mile. Player Name wasn't a line driver, he was a passenger depending heavily on his line. Miller makes those around him better because he's a complete player. Among all forwards in the league over the past three seasons Miller ranks 9th in assists just behind 33 yr old Marchand, and 11th in first assists. Kane (33 yrs old) is 2nd in the league for 1st assists over the past three seasons. These guys are line drivers. Line drivers don't tend to decline at the same rate as the goal scorers.

 

Given this teams record under Boudreau, a few smart moves and the window is open. Trading Miller for propsects and picks would only delay the window wasting more years of our quality younger players waitng to see if prospects and picks pan out. If Miller, and others, are moved for prospects and picks I'd say two years to open the window is rather optimistic.You're moving your best player, and prospects don't come with guarantees. The sooner our young guys get to the playoffs the longer the window will be open. That's why Chicago signed Hossa. To get that window open sooner for their young stars. Another thing to keep in mind is the Sedin era and it's decline. It took too long to build around them making for a small window, and too many core players in a similar age group makes for a really ugly rebuild. When Miller and Horvat are aging out Petey, Hughes, Demko, and Podz will all be in their prime. There's several years between now and then to draft and develop replacements and make trades to maintain the window.

There is no reason to believe the two year window with Miller has any more chance of  happening than a 5 year window (starting in two years) if we trade him now.  In fact there is more evidence suggesting we need to move Miller and build for a better tomorrow.  We have been a very poor team with Miller, except for a short stint with BB coaching.  And that's because we have Demko.  We are a bad to average team with Miller.  

It's time to start building for a better tomorrow.  Trade Miller and do it right friggin' now.

I always cheer for us to win, but I'm getting to the point where I know we need to lose these games to send the right message to our owner.