JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 5 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Yes I do. We're 17-17-8 without the 9 game coaching bump. I guess the 23 players that played the first 25 games don't factor into this at all. They have absolutely nothing to do with our early season record so just erase that I guess. We're also 3-4-3 in our last 10 when it counted, but that doesn't matter either so just erase that too. We play like absolute rubbish at times, and don't show up for the first period, but that doesn't matter either I guess. What would you tell a Leaf fan if they missed the playoffs in 4 out of 5 seasons, changed their coaches early in year 6 and won a handful of games before missing the playoffs by 9 points yet proclaimed themselves a top contender based on only the games they feel like counting? We have roster issues, but the core isn't the problem, imo. Getting rid of our best F before moving off Garland and/or Boeser makes no sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 20 minutes ago, JM_ said: Say e.g., we could replace Petan and Chaisson with Nick Paul and Nick Deslauriers, and upgrade our d with Manson. Are we still fringe? Hard to say, team would look better I would think. I would be on board with all 3 of the adds in the off season. To counter point though, do those 3 adds turn is into a legit cup contender in the next handful of years? I don't think so. In my eyes this team needs a pretty decent shake up if we want to truely contend in Demkos window. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Shayster007 said: Hard to say, team would look better I would think. I would be on board with all 3 of the adds in the off season. To counter point though, do those 3 adds turn is into a legit cup contender in the next handful of years? I don't think so. In my eyes this team needs a pretty decent shake up if we want to truely contend in Demkos window. If we're talking actual hockey trades, that could work. I don't see it happening with getting 20 year olds. Benning left us with a bit of a frustrating group, but I like the main pieces of Demko, Miller, Bo, Hughes, Petey a lot. When they are going we're a tough out. I see one of our biggest issues as a lack of size and additional grit, particular in the F group. So we'll see. We've all beat this topic to death. I'd really love to see the sheet with all the market values for our players, that would clarify the direction a lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, JM_ said: wut? do you think our record under BB is a mirage of some kind? If you believe you see a top 10 team, it absolutely is a mirage. We're spotty defensively, overly reliant on Demko, lack consistency, lack speed, lack grit... Never mind the cap issues, looming succession/youth issues and the poorly constructed (particularly right side) D. Their play has been at times admirable post-Bruce but this team isn't close as presently constructed. Expecting Demko to bail us out all of next season and the majority of the team to play at "eleven" the whole year isn't a realistic plan for improving. Tweaks or not. 51 minutes ago, JM_ said: Say e.g., we could replace Petan and Chaisson with Nick Paul and Nick Deslauriers, and upgrade our d with Manson. Are we still fringe? Better fringe, but absolutely. This team badly needs to be built out, streamlined and the right side of the D in particular, completely revamped. Focus on the window of Petey/Hughes/Demko and build everything around and focused on that. This team isn't a legit contender (again, that doesn't mean we don't see playoffs, before you "Bo won't stick around" again...) for another couple'ish years no matter what we do, that's likely just as Miller starts to regress. That's bad math. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, aGENT said: If you believe you see a top 10 team, it absolutely is a mirage. We're spotty defensively, overly reliant on Demko, lack consistency, lack speed, lack grit... Never mind the cap issues, looming succession/youth issues and the poorly constructed (particularly right side) D. Their play has been at times admirable post-Bruce but this team isn't close as presently constructed. Expecting Demko to bail us out all of next season and the majority of the team to play at "eleven" the whole year isn't a realistic plan for improving. Tweaks or not. Better fringe, but absolutely. This team badly needs to be built out, streamlined and the right side of the D in particular, completely revamped. Focus on the window of Petey/Hughes/Demko and build everything around and focused on that. This team isn't a legit contender (again, that doesn't mean we don't see playoffs, before you "Bo won't stick around" again...) for another couple'ish years no matter what we do, that's likely just as Miller starts to regress. That's bad math. TO is a "top 10 team" who have been bounced in the 1st round over and over. Lots of speed tho I think we just need to agree to disagree, and see what JR/PA can pull off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 45 minutes ago, JM_ said: We have roster issues, but the core isn't the problem, imo. Getting rid of our best F before moving off Garland and/or Boeser makes no sense to me. Hey man. Great discussion. I think we can respectively agree to disagree ... at least for a little bit. Cheers! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawbone Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 8 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Hey man. Great discussion. I think we can respectively agree to disagree ... at least for a little bit. Cheers! Nice to see a debate on the internet end like this. Seriously, the world could use more civil discourse! Also, one of you is wrong but I won’t say who 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, JM_ said: TO is a "top 10 team" who have been bounced in the 1st round over and over. Lots of speed tho I think we just need to agree to disagree, and see what JR/PA can pull off. Personally, I've never bought in to TOR's "top" status. Maybe it's my Gordie-given hatred of everything Leaf as a Canuck fan but they've always struck me as an above average, "regular season" team. They lack the grit and defense to be a good playoff team and their salary structure is completely out of whack. They actually have a lot of the same problems we have, but with a much better forward group So if you don't think the better version of us is a good team... Edited April 7, 2022 by aGENT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 46 minutes ago, JM_ said: If we're talking actual hockey trades, that could work. I don't see it happening with getting 20 year olds. Benning left us with a bit of a frustrating group, but I like the main pieces of Demko, Miller, Bo, Hughes, Petey a lot. When they are going we're a tough out. I see one of our biggest issues as a lack of size and additional grit, particular in the F group. So we'll see. We've all beat this topic to death. I'd really love to see the sheet with all the market values for our players, that would clarify the direction a lot. He sure did. I have a hard time with this because I liked Benning, but the OEL trade was the beginning of the end for me. I hated that trade the day it happened, and hate it now. We don't have the type of cap flexabity the new management needs to make significant change. Change is needed, this team has as close to no identity as I have seen in a long time. We aren't the skilled team, we aren't the big team, we aren't the fast team, we aren't the goal scoring team, nor the defensive team. We are the team the outstanding goaltending, but that's not an identity I'm willing to hitch my horse to. If I felt that team was a couple years from contending I would be on team sign Miller, even at an overpayment that may handcuff us in the future. But I can not see a pathway that leads us to a cup contender status in the next few years without making significant moves and a lot of luck. I'm open to moving every player not named Petey, Hughes, and Demko. I'm not advocating a blow up, but I'm advocating for significant change to help the team progress. It could fail, but it could succeed. But I'm so fed up with being bad that I'd be willing to risk it for a biscuit. Regardless, my line in the sand is 8 million for Miller. If he takes that or less, sure, I'd sign it and hope he ages gracefully. If he wants anything north of 8 I think we have to trade him and recoup the value elsewhere on the team. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 35 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Hey man. Great discussion. I think we can respectively agree to disagree ... at least for a little bit. Cheers! yeah for sure. We all have our preferences, none of us are paid for it I guess at the end of the day if we do move assets, at least we have good ones to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 23 minutes ago, aGENT said: Personally, I've never bought in to TOR's "top" status. Maybe it's my Gordie-given hatred of everything Leaf as a Canuck fan but they've always struck me as an above average, "regular season" team. They lack the grit and defense to be a good playoff team and their salary structure is completely out of whack. They actually have a lot of the same problems we have, but with a much better forward group So if you don't think the better version of us is a good team... for me its more about building for the grind of the playoffs, vs winning the regular season. When I think about Klimovich finally getting here, being on a line with Podz and Bo that makes me happy. Have fun handling that, McBaby. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris12345 Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, JM_ said: Say e.g., we could replace Petan and Chaisson with Nick Paul and Nick Deslauriers, and upgrade our d with Manson. Are we still fringe? Arguably the team would be significantly better just like how it was argued the team was playoff bound with OEL and Garland in exchange for nothing. In other words I've seen this game before. Time for more change. Not a blow up but a bit of surgery required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Shayster007 said: He sure did. I have a hard time with this because I liked Benning, but the OEL trade was the beginning of the end for me. I hated that trade the day it happened, and hate it now. We don't have the type of cap flexabity the new management needs to make significant change. Change is needed, this team has as close to no identity as I have seen in a long time. We aren't the skilled team, we aren't the big team, we aren't the fast team, we aren't the goal scoring team, nor the defensive team. We are the team the outstanding goaltending, but that's not an identity I'm willing to hitch my horse to. If I felt that team was a couple years from contending I would be on team sign Miller, even at an overpayment that may handcuff us in the future. But I can not see a pathway that leads us to a cup contender status in the next few years without making significant moves and a lot of luck. I'm open to moving every player not named Petey, Hughes, and Demko. I'm not advocating a blow up, but I'm advocating for significant change to help the team progress. It could fail, but it could succeed. But I'm so fed up with being bad that I'd be willing to risk it for a biscuit. Regardless, my line in the sand is 8 million for Miller. If he takes that or less, sure, I'd sign it and hope he ages gracefully. If he wants anything north of 8 I think we have to trade him and recoup the value elsewhere on the team. my hope for Miller is 7.5. Maybe I'm out to lunch, but 7.5 x 8 is the deal I'd prefer, if the last 3 years are favourable to move him to a bottom feeder (or if we're retooling keep him). I'd really like to see both Miller and Bo extended for the rest of their careers for 15 mil. combined. I like OEL, he brings a lot, but yup thats a bit too pricey. It forces us to have to find more "Dermott's" but thats not a unique situation and maybe by then our ELC pipeline will be able to help. Edited April 7, 2022 by JM_ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Chris12345 said: Arguably the team would be significantly better just like how it was argued the team was playoff bound with OEL and Garland in exchange for nothing. In other words I've seen this game before. Time for more change. Not a blow up but a bit of surgery required. I've never been opposed to a hockey trade that makes us better. E.g., Boeser for a top 4 RHD, or Garland for a bigger RFA winger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris12345 Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 17 minutes ago, JM_ said: I've never been opposed to a hockey trade that makes us better. E.g., Boeser for a top 4 RHD, or Garland for a bigger RFA winger. Yea that's what I want too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 hours ago, JM_ said: We have roster issues, but the core isn't the problem, imo. Getting rid of our best F before moving off Garland and/or Boeser makes no sense to me. 2 hours ago, Gawdzukes said: Hey man. Great discussion. I think we can respectively agree to disagree ... at least for a little bit. Cheers! 1 hour ago, Strawbone said: Nice to see a debate on the internet end like this. Seriously, the world could use more civil discourse! Also, one of you is wrong but I won’t say who 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Strawbone said: Nice to see a debate on the internet end like this. Seriously, the world could use more civil discourse! Also, one of you is wrong but I won’t say who Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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