Harold Drunken Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: We are signing Miller. It’s been Boy a matter of how much. 8 x 8.75 is what I’m seeing. I just don't see how they could be comfortable signing a player until they are 38..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, Alflives said: We are signing Miller. It’s been Boy a matter of how much. 8 x 8.75 is what I’m seeing. Yes i think he gets the same deal as Zinbenejad in NYR. All the way to 38...if that's the case we'd better hope he can sustain this level for another 5/6 years. And when he's done - maybe he even ends up with his number in the rafters. That sure would be something. Miller is exactly the type of player i like on our team. We could do far worse. Age is the only pickle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, IBatch said: Yes he's a source but it's far from "official" - and his 32 thoughts include calculated supposition. Allvin has a lot of work to do deciding who stays and who goes. Raises are due and we don't have extra cap to really add an impact player. To me one goes for sure - Miller/Horvat or Brock. Signing Horvat and Miller to their legacy deals isn't the worst thing in the world. My fear is that it's just not quite enough given weaknesses in other areas. But going with 3 legit C's and QHs/Demko could work for us. Glad i'm not making these decisions Alf. JR and Allvin went with a big three in Pittsburgh. Two centres and a D. If that’s Miller, Petey, Hughes, then all other guys (not on ELC’s) are up for trade. There is the owner factor too though. How deep will he allow any retool to go? Will he allow a Bo trade knowing it takes us back a step, even if JR/PA say it’s whats needed to make us more competitive in two years? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Just now, NUCKER67 said: Kind of wish they were out of it before the TDL, because then maybe they would've cashed in big on some players. This team isn't very good, and I'm now thinking giving Miller a big contract would be a mistake. Build around Petey and Hughes - start over. That's the long view. Guess we will find out. I love Miller and hate to see him go, that said his return could end up not working out well either. Other then us tanking again. At some point a team needs to go for it and the age of our existing guys is actually still in our favour including Miller for now. I think they will end up working with the window JB devised. Won't know if that was a mistake until it's too late - but at the same time we should still have a few of these guys towing the line once the core below it emerges if it falls apart so all isn't lost either way we go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Harold Drunken said: Blues are a better, deeper team than us...along with most of the teams ahead of us in the standings. If Miller and Pettersson don't have stellar nights we lose, simple as that. Our lack of scoring depth is very evident right now. Hoping this summer brings some positive changes. And the Blues let AP walk as a UFA too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 minute ago, Alflives said: JR and Allvin went with a big three in Pittsburgh. Two centres and a D. If that’s Miller, Petey, Hughes, then all other guys (not on ELC’s) are up for trade. There is the owner factor too though. How deep will he allow any retool to go? Will he allow a Bo trade knowing it takes us back a step, even if JR/PA say it’s whats needed to make us more competitive in two years? I'd certainly hope so given all the hires that he's actually listen to his staff. It's ballooned. And that money isn't profit for him. He profits when the Canucks are doing well. So i'm not going to comment on what the owner might or might not be doing on interference. I suspect he does absolutely nothing at this point or sure freaking hope that's the case. Finally have a pro organization again. JB didn't need those distractions. Too much work to do and too many hats. Was a huge mistake allowing the org to shrink but also get covid affected that as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalCanuckFan Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, IBatch said: Yes he's a source but it's far from "official" - and his 32 thoughts include calculated supposition. Allvin has a lot of work to do deciding who stays and who goes. Raises are due and we don't have extra cap to really add an impact player. To me one goes for sure - Miller/Horvat or Brock. Signing Horvat and Miller to their legacy deals isn't the worst thing in the world. My fear is that it's just not quite enough given weaknesses in other areas. But going with 3 legit C's and QHs/Demko could work for us. Glad i'm not making these decisions Alf. I think a wrinkle is that Pettersson only has one more year at $7.35M after the first years of Horvat's and Miller's new contracts (assuming that it's Brock that's moved out). If Miller is resigned for $8.5M+, Petterson has one more year after that at $7.35M and Horvat is re-signed, then that's a lot of money committed to the 3 centers. I personally don't mind a team investing in C depth and allocating Brock's money to pay for the raises for Horvat and Miller does make some sense. Having said that, if Horvat comes in at $6.5M+, then that's more than a quarter of the cap tied to 3 forwards. The team is going to need to have a rotation of productive but cheap wingers to make this work. They're also going to be limited in their ability to fill out the D. I think it's possible that this could work but will this really provide the foundation needed for a perennial contender? Miller's play has been impressive but the fact that we have 1 1/2 seasons of him playing as a #1C does make me wonder. There's no question that Miller has been incredibly consistent this season and has only improved since last season, but it does give me pause about the team building around him as the #1C for such a long term. I assume that the long term expectation is that Pettersson will at least solidify himself as a top 2C on the team, if not the #1, but what kind of money is he going to expect in that case? What if Pettersson has a 100-point season in his final year? Are Pettersson's wrist issues concerning enough that management may not be considering him as solidly in the long term plans? The likelihood of the cap going up over the next couple years is helpful but it presumably would also mean that salary expectations may go up for Pettersson, especially if he performs. Like you said, glad I'm not making the decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Drunken Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Alflives said: And the Blues let AP walk as a UFA too. Yep, I've been saying all along (with many others) this team doesn't have the depth or grit to make a playoff run. We had some good runs this year - much in part to Demko's amazing play and Miller being Mr. Consistent. Truth is, our Blueline isn't good enough and neither is our forward group. We have 1 player who you can rely to score consistently (Miller) and 2 others somewhat (Horvat and Pettersson). We have zero scoring depth behind them, we lack size up front and a supporting cast who can contribute, In my mind, there was never much hope for the playoffs, even if we snuck in the bigger physical, deeper more experienced teams (like the Blues) would eat us alive. People here are still hanging onto memories of the bubble team, that is long gone. You need to be able to admit the team over achieved and has some very obvious holes and flaws that need to be addressed. Edited March 31, 2022 by Harold Drunken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, IBatch said: I'd certainly hope so given all the hires that he's actually listen to his staff. It's ballooned. And that money isn't profit for him. He profits when the Canucks are doing well. So i'm not going to comment on what the owner might or might not be doing on interference. I suspect he does absolutely nothing at this point or sure freaking hope that's the case. Finally have a pro organization again. JB didn't need those distractions. Too much work to do and too many hats. Was a huge mistake allowing the org to shrink but also get covid affected that as well. When I read this headline, “Edmonton Oilers file $174 million pandemic loss lawsuit against insurers”, it makes me wonder how much our owner lost over these pandemic years. And considering those losses, how much is he willing to retool, knowing it will cost even more revenue? Maybe that’s why the OEL, Garland deal? Sacrifice the future in hopes of getting more revenue now to offset huge (pandemic) losses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, Alflives said: And the Blues let AP walk as a UFA too. They did everything they could to keep him. So did NYI with Tavares. Sometimes players want another scene. Could for sure happen next year with us and Horvat - and it could be collateral damage just by signing Miller but i hope not. Pretty sure Allvin will get a very good feel for what the players want to do this off season. Some might not want to discuss a new deal until after the season. Some might be open to signing. Hard to say. I hope we win every game down the stretch and this becomes something special that they want to be part of together. That's the ideal scene. Horvat could get a great offer anywhere ... look what Hyman got lol. Would be nice to sign these guys to fair deals and keep on plugging - but they've earned the right, to go play wherever they want too. We should be prepared for pretty much anything. A total shake-up ... i'm thinking rinse and repeat. Brock is the only guy that will 100% be signed or traded this off season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, IBatch said: I don't know. With Miller we are damned if we do and damned if we don't in a way. Allvin has a bit of a mess to clean up and he's started. IF the team doesn't make the playoffs next year he's going to have to blow it up. That includes Miller - so expect this thing is going to go on for awhile yet, as SOON as he's signed he becomes very very tough to trade. Could see him signed during the season, but only when the teams 100% confident we make the playoffs next season. Or maybe we trade him at the draft and re-set our rebuild who knows. All the picks in the world doesn't mean we get a new team that's going to work out ... however i've been saying all along, it's going to be close to 2 decades, now with 32 teams, before we contend again. It's been ten. That's the math anyways. 3 cups a century. IF cap was actually even. For Canadian teams, more like 2. Good point but preferably - Miller gets traded before the draft cause the cost vs age argument, is where the risk lies with Miller - imo. Just basing my opinion, on most of the cup champs, in the cap era: they build there depth & core, though the draft; and I get it cause there are also the ever rebuilding clubs (Sens, Yotes and etc). Ofcourse, there is no guarantee that a retool or rebuild will work out - without some luck but some GM's & team's, tends to follow the blueprint of tanking - to build up a core cheaply, through the draft rather than constantly retooling through FA or trades. I had watched how the Kings & Ducks, had stated to there fans, of there intention to rebuild, whilst, JB was selling his retooling plan. With hindsight, both Cali teams are better positioned to compete when compared to the Canucks cause of there prospect depth and cap space - with the added bonus for both: of having some of there last core intact, to mentor the next group of homegrown talent(s). Regardless, it was enjoyable to watch the team battle, for a spot. I agree, Allvin has a lot of work to do and the deeper & bigger Blues showed, the biggest flaw in JBs' roster: lack of depth. Edited March 31, 2022 by ShawnAntoski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Drunken Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Alflives said: JR and Allvin went with a big three in Pittsburgh. Two centres and a D. If that’s Miller, Petey, Hughes, then all other guys (not on ELC’s) are up for trade. There is the owner factor too though. How deep will he allow any retool to go? Will he allow a Bo trade knowing it takes us back a step, even if JR/PA say it’s whats needed to make us more competitive in two years? True...but they also surrounded them with a very deep supporting cast....Kessel, Kunitz, Hornqvist, Rust, Hagelin, Perron, Bonino, Dupuis, Schultz, Guentzel, Daley, Sprong, Fleury among others. People always say that they won because of Sid, Geno and Letang which obviously they were huge but they are really not giving credit to how deep and well built those teams were. You don't just win the cup with 2 or 3 elite players anymore, that was true in the 80's and 90's but not anymore - you need depth. Edmonton has 2 of the best players in the world and haven't been able to do it because of lack of depth and goaltending. Colorado hasn't been able to do it with Makar, Rantanen and Mackinnon until this year it looks like they may because they added depth and have 3 lines that can hurt you, a deep blueline and good goaltending ....all needed to win the cup in the modern NHL. Edited March 31, 2022 by Harold Drunken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 minute ago, ShawnAntoski said: Good point but preferably - Miller gets traded before the draft cause the cost vs age argument, is where the risk lies with Miller - imo. Just basing my opinion, on most of the cup champs, in the cap era: they build there depth & core, though the draft; and I get it cause there are also the ever rebuilding clubs (Sens, Yotes and etc). Ofcourse, there is no guarantee that a retool or rebuild will work out - without some luck but some GM's & team's, tends to follow the blueprint of tanking - to build up a core cheaply, through the draft rather than constantly retooling through FA or trades. I had watched how the Kings & Ducks, had stated to there fans, of there intention to rebuild, whilst, JB was selling his retooling plan. With hindsight, both Cali teams are better positioned to compete when compared to the Canucks cause of there prospect depth and cap space - with the added bonus for both: of having some of there last core intact, to mentor the next group of homegrown talent(s). Regardless, it was enjoyable to watch the team battle, for a spot. I agree, Allvin has a lot of work to do and the deeper & bigger Blues showed, some of the flaws in JBs' roster: lack of depth. The last paragraph i wouldn't take to much into. The Canucks also beat COL and Dallas recently in their own buildings. What I would say is we are right in the middle of the pack right now. Not ideal. Our only real comp is Detroit. For 14 years Van/Detroit/SJ were the best regular season teams. SJ kept failing in the post season but eventually got their final (their re-tool actually worked) ... Detroit 2 cups and 3 finals ... Canucks like SJ one finals - but also two presidents trophies, 6ish division titles in a row plus either the title winner or the bridesmaid because of COL in the early 2000's. We were always going to have a long period of rebuilding. What went wrong? We didn't actually bottom out. If JB didn't draft his 3 Calder finalists one winner ... we'd just now be coming out the other side. Instead JB sold his picks to fix his messes and to add in Miller (which is his best trade without any context) ... the Sedins have been gone for 3 seasons now. Edler is gone. This team is 100% except for Horvat JBs team still. Only Quin had a team like that before. Right now we are further ahead of Detroit. But we won't be as excellent as they will be in 3 years will we? Hard to say. We won't know the particulars for another five years. Maybe EP breaks out? Maybe he doesn't. Maybe Demko becomes Hasek 2.0? Maybe he doesn't. Brock looks awful of late. The Brett Hull dreams are gone, for me at least. The only way out for our team is core ascension with what JB already arranged. And some really savvy moves by Allvin. We aren't that bad we aren't that good. That said - and this might come as a surprise to some - JB did an average job lol. Too bad it wasn't good enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Canucks should be building to compete with the future Ducks, Kings, Kraken, Coyotes, etc. in the Western Conference. Not the Avs, Knights and Flames. Those teams are contenders, they're stacked and ready. It's a joke to think the Canucks are ready to compete with those teams in a playoff series. They're not going to be any better with mostly the same roster next year. They need to decide who the core is going to be and then do a major overhaul. If they don't, teams like ANA, LA, SEA and ARI will be better, and further along, than the Canucks in a few years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, IBatch said: The last paragraph i wouldn't take to much into. The Canucks also beat COL and Dallas recently in their own buildings. What I would say is we are right in the middle of the pack right now. Not ideal. Our only real comp is Detroit. For 14 years Van/Detroit/SJ were the best regular season teams. SJ kept failing in the post season but eventually got their final (their re-tool actually worked) ... Detroit 2 cups and 3 finals ... Canucks like SJ one finals - but also two presidents trophies, 6ish division titles in a row plus either the title winner or the bridesmaid because of COL in the early 2000's. We were always going to have a long period of rebuilding. What went wrong? We didn't actually bottom out. If JB didn't draft his 3 Calder finalists one winner ... we'd just now be coming out the other side. Instead JB sold his picks to fix his messes and to add in Miller (which is his best trade without any context) ... the Sedins have been gone for 3 seasons now. Edler is gone. This team is 100% except for Horvat JBs team still. Only Quin had a team like that before. Right now we are further ahead of Detroit. But we won't be as excellent as they will be in 3 years will we? Hard to say. We won't know the particulars for another five years. Maybe EP breaks out? Maybe he doesn't. Maybe Demko becomes Hasek 2.0? Maybe he doesn't. Brock looks awful of late. The Brett Hull dreams are gone, for me at least. The only way out for our team is core ascension with what JB already arranged. And some really savvy moves by Allvin. We aren't that bad we aren't that good. That said - and this might come as a surprise to some - JB did an average job lol. Too bad it wasn't good enough. Those Dal and Col games were regular season games and I was mainly, looking at it from a playoff series POV, when I emphasize the lack of depth cause if the NHL playoffs, were like March Madness: one & done, then JBs' roster might have a better chance of winning a cup. As for Detroit, Yzerman is taking a very patient approach to his rebuild and has no long term commitment cause most of his young core are still, in there elc (except, for Zadina). He has a timeline in mind and he has an owner & a fanbase that has bought in, to his plan. He is also not reluctant, on selling [high] on any player, outside of his young core (despite the age): Mantha (25yrs of age, when he got traded). Ofcourse, the gamble with Yzermans' plan will be: his young core will be done with there ELC, when his core is set & ready and that is where his prospect depth & cap space, will perhaps come in to mitigate any flaws with his roster. SJ is perhaps a good comp to the Canucks cause of there cap (long term contracts with players over 30) and lack of prospect depth - another ever retooling team. Let's see how the offseason plays out and what the final roster will be for training camp. Edited March 31, 2022 by ShawnAntoski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Vintage Canuck- Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 19 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said: Canucks should be building to compete with the future Ducks, Kings, Kraken, Coyotes, etc. in the Western Conference. Not the Avs, Knights and Flames. Those teams are contenders, they're stacked and ready. It's a joke to think the Canucks are ready to compete with those teams in a playoff series. They're not going to be any better with mostly the same roster next year. They need to decide who the core is going to be and then do a major overhaul. If they don't, teams like ANA, LA, SEA and ARI will be better, and further along, than the Canucks in a few years. Well said: regular season games vs a playoff series. I had also argued: if the Yotes & Habs will be better positioned, in a few years, whilst, the Canucks are doing retooling 2.0 under JR/Allvin cause both the Kings & Ducks are almost done with there rebuild and the ever retooling Canucks are going into another one. Kings & Ducks have prospect depth & cap vs no cap & lack of depth, for the CURRENT Canucks. Allvin inherited some good things, as well as, some headaches - let's see how the new crew will do in the offseason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goal:thecup Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 15 Pages of Trade Proposals. The PGT has been hijacked. We are still in it. We are in it until we aren't. Take all your 'great' trade and rebuild ideas to a proposals thread. GO CANUCKS GO! 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 8 minutes ago, Muttley said: I'd love to get into the playoffs next year. Too many folks seem to think Miller's ask price is going to be up to 9M. No way! It confounds me to think or even understand how folks could possibly think we're more of a cup contender without one of the top ten forwards in the league. Yes, some ripping and tearing should take place but not there. Seems counter productive. Backwards. Sending the wrong message to both team and the fans that have to pay to attend games and see something worth seeing. Of course he's going to get that much, why wouldn't he? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post -Vintage Canuck- Posted March 31, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2022 1 minute ago, Goal:thecup said: 15 Pages of Trade Proposals. The PGT has been hijacked. We are still in it. We are in it until we aren't. Take all your 'great' trade and rebuild ideas to a proposals thread. GO CANUCKS GO! 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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