Blackhawks to retire Marian Hossa’s No. 81

[Gurn]

7 minutes ago, HKSR said:

So fighting and hitting are part of the requirement of a jersey retirement?

I'm not aware of any hard and fast regulations on just what the league requirements for jersey retirements are.

Perhaps you have seen it posted somewhere?

[HKSR]

19 minutes ago, gurn said:

I'm not aware of any hard and fast regulations on just what the league requirements for jersey retirements are.

Perhaps you have seen it posted somewhere?

Exactly.  That's what I was getting at.  Just because Naslund didn't fight and hit shouldn't eliminate him from discussion.

[Coconuts]

I said it before, I'll say it again, Bure didn't have the longevity needed to be in the rafters and I wouldn't have put him there. I wouldn't have put Naslund there either, but he had more going for him as a Canuck than Bure did regarding longevity. With Naslund I think there's a fair argument and it doesn't bug me as much as Bure. Bure simply wasn't a Canuck long enough for me. 

 

But if I had my way it'd only be Smyl, Linden, and the twins up here. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Coconuts

[PhillipBlunt]

I bet Hossa's glad he won't have to suit up for the occasion. I'd hate to see him break out from the gear during the ceremony.

[Kevin Biestra]

7 hours ago, HKSR said:

So you have said Smyl, Sedins, and Linden.  Why not Naslund?

 

From a statistical point of view:

 

Smyl - 896 games

Naslund - 884 games

 

Smyl - 673 points

Naslund - 756 points

 

Smyl - 262 goals

Naslund - 346 goals

 

Smyl - Captain? Check!

Naslund - Captain? Check!

 

Smyl - Heart of a Canuck, loves this city, loves the fans - Check!

Naslund - Heart of a Canuck, loves this city, loves the fans - Check!

 

Smyl - Great in the community and off the ice in general - Check!

Naslund - Great in the community and off the ice in general - Check!

 

This is why I feel statistics are vitally important in determining whether jerseys get retired, otherwise it becomes purely an emotional decision and that really blurs the lines and lowers the bar considerably (ie. Smyl).  Why else do you think we have nearly as many jerseys retired as the Edmonton Oilers?

 

Re: "This is why I feel statistics are vitally important in determining whether jerseys get retired, otherwise it becomes purely an emotional decision and that really blurs the lines and lowers the bar considerably (ie. Smyl)."

 

I don't think statistics are vitally important for jersey retirements.  They are more important for the Hall of Fame, and I think you treat the rafters of a given team more like the Hall of Fame than I do.  Jersey retirement is because what a player did for that one team was so meaningful that no other player should ever wear that number again on that ice.

 

Decisions about jersey retirements should be more emotional than decisions about the Hall of Fame.

 

 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

My guess is Mogilny hasn't made the hall because of what people had to say about his off ice stuff.   After watching the video of Gartner and McDonald calling this class of folks - can see that they definitely weight how a hockey player acts off the ice as part of their criteria for getting in.   This favours guys like Rod the Bod i'm sure.   Turgeon  should already be in given other guys made it in despite never being a trophy winner or winning a cup.  Scored almost as many points as Sundin, in less games.   515 goals!  1327 points! 1294 games.   And did his thing no matter where he went.    Don't get that one personally.    Not his fault that his career moment was Dale Hunter crushing him and breaking bones after taking the NYI on an unlikely run.  

 

Joe Thornton is this generations Mark Rechhi.   Or Dave Andreychuk.   Longevity.    Marleau is an outlier in this respect too.   Not enough though (Marleau). 

 

I do wonder where Crosby and Ovi end up by the time they are done.   My guess is if they get to 1400-1500 games, which seems plausible, both guys end up bumping some awfully great legends.   And truly happy that younger folks got to see what greatness looks like.  

 

Back when Mark Recchi and Dave Andreychuk were inducted - and Federko there was some blow back.   Because it's the "Hockey Hall of Fame" and not the Hockey Hall of Very Good.   Writers weren't super keen on any of these inductions because they didn't see  longevity or that folks that didn't win major awards or cups should get in (yet).   One of these  was always going to change with expansion.   Can't win a cup often anymore.   So expect to see a lot more guys haven't got in eventually get their do.   These guys all check some of those boxes.   

 

Lowe getting inducted too.   The bar has to lower to keep it running.   Weber should actually make it, even if he didn't get a major award given he was the leagues 2-10th best the majority of his career.    Not sure how i feel about it.   But it is what it is.   Luongo and the Sedins getting in first ballot was something.   Luongo was the most deserving really of this class.  

 

On that.   I wonder what HKSR feels about a Luongo jersey retirement too.   Because really, what he did with Canucks, is a pretty good comp with Bure. 

 

Kevin Lowe is the guy who lowers the bar...and Dick Duff one could say.  Moreso than Federko, Andreychuk, Recchi, etc.  Both are in on the strength of six Cups and being a good player on those teams.  They are a little below where I would set the bar but at the same time I don't have a problem with them being in.  Like we have discussed though, Huddy is about 98% as good as Lowe so if Lowe is in...

 

[HKSR]

10 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Re: "This is why I feel statistics are vitally important in determining whether jerseys get retired, otherwise it becomes purely an emotional decision and that really blurs the lines and lowers the bar considerably (ie. Smyl)."

 

I don't think statistics are vitally important for jersey retirements.  They are more important for the Hall of Fame, and I think you treat the rafters of a given team more like the Hall of Fame than I do.  Jersey retirement is because what a player did for that one team was so meaningful that no other player should ever wear that number again on that ice.

 

Decisions about jersey retirements should be more emotional than decisions about the Hall of Fame.

 

 

 

I think I'd be pretty confident in saying what Bure brought to this city was something no other player in the history of this franchise has ever been able to replicate.  The excitement and emotional impact of Bure resonates with thousands upon thousands of Canucks fans over several generations.  From his very first shift on the ice, you knew he was gonna be a special player for this franchise.  Emotional.  Check.

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, HKSR said:

I think I'd be pretty confident in saying what Bure brought to this city was something no other player in the history of this franchise has ever been able to replicate.  The excitement and emotional impact of Bure resonates with thousands upon thousands of Canucks fans over several generations.  From his very first shift on the ice, you knew he was gonna be a special player for this franchise.  Emotional.  Check.

 

Bure brought excitement as an emotion and that's something impressive but what Linden and Smyl and Brodeur and McLean and Ronning brought was something like watching Rocky.  It's a different emotion...for me that's the jersey retiring emotion.  I would be willing to retire a jersey for excitement, and Bure brought unprecedented excitement, but for that he would need more time in the uniform, just like Ronning and Tiger Williams and Thomas Gradin would have as well.

 

Anyway I tend to have a higher standard for jersey retirement than most, or at least I would retire less jerseys.  However I would induct more players into the Hockey Hall of Fame and the team's Ring of Honour than most.

 

I had been calling for Doug Wilson to get inducted for years into the HOF.  I'm still banging the drum for Bernie Nicholls, Tom Barrasso, Mike Vernon, Pierre Turgeon, Brian Propp, Randy Carlyle, maybe Dave Taylor and Reggie Leach and a few others.  For the ROH I'm still pounding the pavement for Tiger Williams, Gino Odjick, King Richard, maybe Ronning and Lidster and Andre Boudrias as well.

 

I guess for whatever reason I view actual retirement of a number as a more exclusive thing.

 

 

[Kevin Biestra]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

My guess is Mogilny hasn't made the hall because of what people had to say about his off ice stuff.   After watching the video of Gartner and McDonald calling this class of folks - can see that they definitely weight how a hockey player acts off the ice as part of their criteria for getting in.   This favours guys like Rod the Bod i'm sure.   Turgeon  should already be in given other guys made it in despite never being a trophy winner or winning a cup.  Scored almost as many points as Sundin, in less games.   515 goals!  1327 points! 1294 games.   And did his thing no matter where he went.    Don't get that one personally.    Not his fault that his career moment was Dale Hunter crushing him and breaking bones after taking the NYI on an unlikely run.

 

Also back in the day it was said all of the hockey brass held a grudge against Pierre Turgeon for being the one guy who stayed on the bench for the Punch Up in Piestany at the World Juniors.

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bure brought excitement as an emotion and that's something impressive but what Linden and Smyl and Brodeur and McLean and Ronning brought was something like watching Rocky.  It's a different emotion...for me that's the jersey retiring emotion.  I would be willing to retire a jersey for excitement, and Bure brought unprecedented excitement, but for that he would need more time in the uniform, just like Ronning and Tiger Williams and Thomas Gradin would have as well.

 

Anyway I tend to have a higher standard for jersey retirement than most, or at least I would retire less jerseys.  However I would induct more players into the Hockey Hall of Fame and the team's Ring of Honour than most.

 

I had been calling for Doug Wilson to get inducted for years into the HOF.  I'm still banging the drum for Bernie Nicholls, Tom Barrasso, Mike Vernon, Pierre Turgeon, Brian Propp, Randy Carlyle, maybe Dave Taylor and Reggie Leach and a few others.  For the ROH I'm still pounding the pavement for Tiger Williams, Gino Odjick, King Richard, maybe Ronning and Lidster and Andre Boudrias as well.

 

I guess for whatever reason I view actual retirement of a number as a more exclusive thing.

 

 

I also have a high standard for jersey retirements, and that's why I don't see Smyl or Naslund or Linden as jersey retirements.  The statistical standard isn't there for me.  

 

If you wanna see what impact Bure has on this fanbase to this day, take a skim over any GDT.  You'll see references made about him all over the place. He's so impactful that he's just a regular reference on here for fans of all ages.  Whether it's about his scoring ability, the excitement he brought, his creativity on the ice, his awards, heck even "the elbow" (yeah you know exactly what I mean when all I need to say is "the elbow").  He is "the" bar for offensive ability for this franchise.  Well, him and the Sedins.  That should tell you all you need to know about his impact on this team.

 

Honestly, just do a quick scan of any GDT and you'll see what I mean.

[Kevin Biestra]

10 hours ago, HKSR said:

I also have a high standard for jersey retirements, and that's why I don't see Smyl or Naslund or Linden as jersey retirements.  The statistical standard isn't there for me.  

 

If you wanna see what impact Bure has on this fanbase to this day, take a skim over any GDT.  You'll see references made about him all over the place. He's so impactful that he's just a regular reference on here for fans of all ages.  Whether it's about his scoring ability, the excitement he brought, his creativity on the ice, his awards, heck even "the elbow" (yeah you know exactly what I mean when all I need to say is "the elbow").  He is "the" bar for offensive ability for this franchise.  Well, him and the Sedins.  That should tell you all you need to know about his impact on this team.

 

Honestly, just do a quick scan of any GDT and you'll see what I mean.

 

I get it.  I was there.  I was in the front row when he scored on a breakaway in the 94 playoffs.  He was as exciting as anything that has ever stepped onto a sheet of ice.  But he's probably 7th in my order for retired jerseys and that's leaving out goalies.

 

He is "the bar" for offensive ability for this franchise.  But "the bar" is also Kent Nilsson in Calgary, Dennis Maruk in Washington, Alexander Mogilny in Buffalo.  Stats gets you part of the way to the rafters with me.

[HKSR]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I get it.  I was there.  I was in the front row when he scored on a breakaway in the 94 playoffs.  He was as exciting as anything that has ever stepped onto a sheet of ice.  But he's probably 7th in my order for retired jerseys and that's leaving out goalies.

 

He is "the bar" for offensive ability for this franchise.  But "the bar" is also Kent Nilsson in Calgary, Dennis Maruk in Washington, Alexander Mogilny in Buffalo.  Stats gets you part of the way to the rafters with me.

For me, the bar here with Bure also includes the fact statistically he's top 5 all time in pretty much all major offensive categories.  

 

Emotionally he brought more excitement to this fanbase than any other player in existence from this franchise.

 

I firmly believe a LOT of current canucks fans became fans in the early 1990s simply because of Bure.  I know several personally.

 

The Canucks first true superstar.  

 

Really boggles my mind when people penalize him for not playing enough games here.  Imagine penalizing Gretzky for only playing 696 games in Edmonton 

 

Anyways, Ive made my points and will agree to disagree.  We can argue this til we're both blue in the face.  

 

Thanks for the banter.

[Kevin Biestra]

10 hours ago, HKSR said:

For me, the bar here with Bure also includes the fact statistically he's top 5 all time in pretty much all major offensive categories.  

 

Emotionally he brought more excitement to this fanbase than any other player in existence from this franchise.

 

I firmly believe a LOT of current canucks fans became fans in the early 1990s simply because of Bure.  I know several personally.

 

The Canucks first true superstar.  

 

Really boggles my mind when people penalize him for not playing enough games here.  Imagine penalizing Gretzky for only playing 696 games in Edmonton 

 

Anyways, Ive made my points and will agree to disagree.  We can argue this til we're both blue in the face.  

 

Thanks for the banter.

 

Happy to let it go but I'll just add that if you want to talk about singlehandedly created % increase in the Canucks fan base, your #1 and #2 guys are probably Pavel Bure and Richard Brodeur.  One isn't even in the Ring of Honour.