Blackhawks to retire Marian Hossa’s No. 81

[IBatch]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:13 PM, hammertime said:

To be fair Hossa was IMO the best player of that era for them. 

A lot of hate.    Don't get that.   Hossa was one heck of a hockey player, on what was the last rivalry this teams had. Healtey was an amazing player when he came into the league, and Hossa was better, i'm sure that OTT didn't mind at all at the time, but have to wonder if their fate would have been better keeping Hossa instead of that trade to ATL.   Heatley/Spezza/Alfie formed the best line in hockey for a couple seasons not doubt, but Hossa was going to finals back and forth on the wrong side of things, and when he ended up landing in CHI became the vet difference maker.   We could only hope EP becomes 80% of what Hossa could do.    Datsyuk and Hossa were the best high end scoring two-way players of their era.  

 

First one up ... expect to see Keith, Kane and Toews up there one day too.   We don't have to like it, but respect.   And his skin stuff was 100% legit.   If i had to pick just one guy off that team to build around, Hossa would be my first choice too.    

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, HKSR said:

Not to mention the 1st true superstar to ever wear a Canucks jersey.  The guy is in the NHL hall of fame for a reason.

He's one of two superstars this org has ever had.   Mogliny is the other.   What those two guys managed in a very tough era, with the trap and moolies trying to take them out plus draping all over them ... was something.   No slight to the Sedins, they also were something, one year both anyways that's it  ... Bure did enough just in Vancouver to deserve that honour.   His best years were actually in Florida after his knee recovered enough.   Even when he was hobbled, he was something.    Someone posted a video a couple seasons ago of all Bure's goals, just in Vancouver ... it was a very, very  long video ... and didn't include all those amazing single efforts that didn't quite work out.    He's considered one of the most unique players from any team, ever to lace them up all-time.     Still considered the fastest player with the puck, and that's not changing anytime soon (Sure isn't just  McDavid lol ... Federov, Coffey, Orr, Hull Sr.. there were others..

 

Letang's favourite player growing up "skated like he was shot out of a cannon"...  I remember an all-star game ... everyone was waiting for Bure's turn to do his lap ... he "shot" out of a cannon and was going so fast around the net he stumbled, got back up, and still made it around in 14 seconds.   That lap probably would have stood as the record to this day.    Nobody i've seen before or since, states like Bure.   Like Paul Coffey, who accelerated while gliding, just a special skater.    Back then when Gartner sped around the rink, they didn't have pilons either - they skated around the rink on the outside/middle not on the inside.  And Larkins time was a cheat, that year they let them take a step, cross a line, then the clock started.  Wish i saw Bobby Hull.    He also cracks the top ten fastest skaters all-time.    Bure is number one though.    Nice to have McKinnon and McDavid skating around today, but the leagues had a lot of guys that get forgot.   Grainy footage doesn't do it justice at all - the fans reaction when Bure got the puck says it all.   If they tracked breakaways ... have to wonder where he stands on that front .. and most goalies didn't have a chance. 

 

One moment that sticks out in my mind anyways, was a penalty shot.   You can see the ref asking Bure where he'd shoot, his response "five-hole", then he shot in and five hole it was lol.   When Bure had the puck on his stick "BOOM" he was gone.    Like Gretzky and Mario it didn't matter who he played with... was actually maybe a small issue. but you could play him on a third line and he'd still get 50 goals...Gino lol...two on ones with him that year and Bure always made it easy for a tip in, wide open net, perfect pass ... a better player would have had 40 goals that year. 

 

Bure is known for his goal scoring but he was also an amazing passer... and a threat every time he got a shift.   Imagine training with a parachute lol.   

Edited November 21, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 9/15/2022 at 6:15 PM, -AJ- said:

I think it really depends on what you mean by "Greatest". I would put Bure as the "best" player to play for the team, but "Greatest" involves more longevity IMO.

 

This list I ran in 2020 resulted in Bure at #4 for "Greatest", behind both Sedins and Linden:

 

 

Those lists were fun, and that's probably where he should be.   Yes it does matter how long a person plays for the Org, but for sure what they do in the postseason matters as well.   Why guys like Ronning, Adams, Courtnall, Burrows, Bieksa, Babcyh, Broduer etc deserve special treatment despite where their point totals may or may not be.     I do wonder, if we made a couple lists and had folks rank them based on their age groups, where the final tally's come in.   Recentcy bias was very strong, quite apparent with whom was getting nominated at what point.   The top ten isn't tough ... but after that it surely went off the rails a little.  
 

If we did another one, "greatest playoff performers"  for example, then that list becomes totally different.   89-96 teams would dominate the list, followed by the Sedin teams with some early 80's guys and some WCE era ones.   Playoff series won matters too.   IF we kept Ronning (big mistake) and that early 90's team together during their peak primes which we didn't,  things would look even more lopsided.  

 

For example:  Linden, McLean, Bure, Ronning, Courtnall, Adams, Sedin Sedin, Lumme,  Babcyh,  Broduer, Salo, Burrows, Bieksa and guys like Momesso despite not here long, bump guys like Hansen and even Kesler moves down the list quite a bit.     Feel that playoffs should be weighted higher then regular season accolades.   Mogilny might not even make the list.  

 

Edit:  That said AJ, it was really fun. And it goes for to show what that folks all see things with their own eye balls and feels too.   Bieksa's Stachion goal, Burrows slaying the dragon, Kesler's Nashville series were special moments for sure.   And the WCE era had some good stuff too... like being up 2-0 against Detroit in 2002 when we were supposed to be the patsy (and yes that did end up being the case .. but we did deserve a better outcome, goes to show how good that team could have been).   I love that your into hockey history and appreciate that you do your best to honour previous era's.    This one.   Well there is no such thing as giving them the lumber anymore but it's probably for the best.    The only thing i really don't like about it, is that cap is disclosed to the media and fanbase.   Transparency to that degree, doesn't do the fan base or the media any favours.  

Edited November 21, 2022 by IBatch

[beni]

20 hours ago, HKSR said:

Anybody arguing against Bure's jersey retirement are simply too young to have seen him play.

False.

 

I did watch him play growing up and he was my favorite player. They never should have retired his number, He played under 500 games in a Canucks uniform. It did not warrant a jersey retirement. 

[HKSR]

13 minutes ago, beni said:

False.

 

I did watch him play growing up and he was my favorite player. They never should have retired his number, He played under 500 games in a Canucks uniform. It did not warrant a jersey retirement. 

That's your opinion, but the fact remains, when the following questions are posed, he is consistently right near the top (Top 5), if not the top (#1) on every single list:

 

1.  Who is the most talented Canuck ever?

2.  Who is the greatest Canuck ever?

3.  Which player in the entire history of the Canucks franchise would you like to see 'live' again?

4.  Who holds the record for most playoff goals scored in Canucks franchise history?  Also playoff goals per game?

5.  Which Canucks have scored the most playoff points in Canucks franchise history?  Also playoff points per game?

6.  Which Canucks have scored the most game winning goals in Canucks franchise history?

7.  Which Canucks have been recognized in the NHL hockey hall of fame?

8.  Which Canucks have scored the most goals as a Canuck?

9.  Which Canucks are ranked among ALL NHL players with the highest Goals Per Game averages in NHL history?

10.  Which players would be considered the most exciting players to watch in NHL history?

 

The list goes on. 

 

He did more in that short tenure than 99% of the players that ever wore a Canucks jersey.

 

Jersey #10 deserves to be in the rafters.

 

Case closed.

[J-Dizzle]

25 minutes ago, beni said:

False.

 

I did watch him play growing up and he was my favorite player. They never should have retired his number, He played under 500 games in a Canucks uniform. It did not warrant a jersey retirement. 

Besides the fact the franchise treated him like garbage…. The guy did more in the games he played in Vancouver than most do in a career. It shouldn’t even be a question (raising his jersey). 

[Kevin Biestra]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:59 PM, HKSR said:

Anybody arguing against Bure's jersey retirement are simply too young to have seen him play.

 

On 11/21/2022 at 2:51 PM, HKSR said:

That's your opinion, but the fact remains, when the following questions are posed, he is consistently right near the top (Top 5), if not the top (#1) on every single list:

 

1.  Who is the most talented Canuck ever?

2.  Who is the greatest Canuck ever?

3.  Which player in the entire history of the Canucks franchise would you like to see 'live' again?

4.  Who holds the record for most playoff goals scored in Canucks franchise history?  Also playoff goals per game?

5.  Which Canucks have scored the most playoff points in Canucks franchise history?  Also playoff points per game?

6.  Which Canucks have scored the most game winning goals in Canucks franchise history?

7.  Which Canucks have been recognized in the NHL hockey hall of fame?

8.  Which Canucks have scored the most goals as a Canuck?

9.  Which Canucks are ranked among ALL NHL players with the highest Goals Per Game averages in NHL history?

10.  Which players would be considered the most exciting players to watch in NHL history?

 

The list goes on. 

 

He did more in that short tenure than 99% of the players that ever wore a Canucks jersey.

 

Jersey #10 deserves to be in the rafters.

 

Case closed.

 

I saw Bure play...almost every game that was televised and I listened to almost every game that wasn't on the radio along with the pensioners, the blind...

 

I have Bure as a Ring of Honour guy, more like Ring of Honour and a half...but I don't have him as a retired jersey and at least not unquestionably so.  The same with Markus Naslund.  The only unquestionable ones are Smyl, Linden and the Sedins for me.

 

Bure does rate at the top or very high in the questions you provided, but you did select questions that would have him at the top.  There are players who won't have their numbers retired or even have it discussed near the top of some of those lists (Tony Tanti, etc.)...

 

And there are other important lists where Bure doesn't even register at all.

 

- Greatest on ice leaders as a Canuck

- Greatest off ice leaders / best in the community

- Most seasons

- Most games

- Most heart - Bure might be somewhere respectable on the overall list but not at the top.  And questions like this are why Terry O'Reilly is retired in Boston

- Does he even seem to like the team and the city?

 

A number of teams had their most talented player ever (or close to it) for a cup of coffee or a handful of seasons...and it just wasn't enough for a retirement.  Adam Oates in St. Louis and Boston, Dino Ciccarelli in Minnesota and Washington, Mike Gartner the same, Larry Murphy wherever he played, Kent Nilsson in Calgary, etc.

 

I'm not steadfastly against the Bure jersey retirement, same with Naslund, but there is a tier above them for that honour with the four players I considered slam dunks...captained the team to a Cup final, all pretty much retired as the career record holders for the team in games, goals, assists and points (save for Henrik with goals).  These guys were what it meant to be a Canuck and for a long time.  Bure was just a really awesome player and a lot of fun to watch for a moderate stretch of time in Vancouver.

 

When it comes to jersey retirement and how I would apply the criteria...I would probably have Bure a little below Snepsts to be honest.

 

 

 

[HKSR]

4 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

 

I saw Bure play...almost every game that was televised and I listened to almost every game that wasn't on the radio along with the pensioners, the blind...

 

I have Bure as a Ring of Honour guy, more like Ring of Honour and a half...but I don't have him as a retired jersey and at least not unquestionably so.  The same with Markus Naslund.  The only unquestionable ones are Smyl, Linden and the Sedins for me.

 

Bure does rate at the top or very high in the questions you provided, but you did select questions that would have him at the top.  There are players who won't have their numbers retired or even have it discussed near the top of some of those lists (Tony Tanti, etc.)...

 

And there are other important lists where Bure doesn't even register at all.

 

- Greatest on ice leaders as a Canuck

- Greatest off ice leaders / best in the community

- Most seasons

- Most games

- Most heart - Bure might be somewhere respectable on the overall list but not at the top.  And questions like this are why Terry O'Reilly is retired in Boston

- Does he even seem to like the team and the city?

 

A number of teams had their most talented player ever (or close to it) for a cup of coffee or a handful of seasons...and it just wasn't enough for a retirement.  Adam Oates in St. Louis and Boston, Dino Ciccarelli in Minnesota and Washington, Mike Gartner the same, Larry Murphy wherever he played, Kent Nilsson in Calgary, etc.

 

I'm not steadfastly against the Bure jersey retirement, same with Naslund, but there is a tier above them for that honour with the four players I considered slam dunks...captained the team to a Cup final, all pretty much retired as the career record holders for the team in games, goals, assists and points (save for Henrik with goals).  These guys were what it meant to be a Canuck and for a long time.  Bure was just a really awesome player and a lot of fun to watch for a moderate stretch of time in Vancouver.

 

When it comes to jersey retirement and how I would apply the criteria...I would probably have Bure a little below Snepsts to be honest.

 

 

 

I respect your opinion, but I also consider if you ask hockey fans and hockey analysts across the hockey world who the most iconic Canucks are of all time, I would put down good money that Bure is at or near the top of the list for that too.

 

Remember, statistically Bure is at or near the top of the list for this franchise in several categories.  You are penalizing him for not enough games played.

[Kevin Biestra]

15 hours ago, HKSR said:

I respect your opinion, but I also consider if you ask hockey fans and hockey analysts across the hockey world who the most iconic Canucks are of all time, I would put down good money that Bure is at or near the top of the list for that too.

 

Remember, statistically Bure is at or near the top of the list for this franchise in several categories.  You are penalizing him for not enough games played.

 

Teemu Selanne is one of the most iconic Jets, Alexander Mogilny one of the most iconic Sabres.  They run into the same problem.  Hull as a Dallas Star.

 

Pavel may be among the moderate career leaders as a Canuck but he doesn't even have 500 points as a Canuck.  The records pre-Sedin are pretty modest.  I think Bure doesn't have as many points in his entire career as either Linden or Smyl have as Canucks.  The HOF committee waited quite a while to decide to induct Bure due to being sorely lacking in longevity and career totals.

[HKSR]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Teemu Selanne is one of the most iconic Jets, Alexander Mogilny one of the most iconic Sabres.  They run into the same problem.  Hull as a Dallas Star.

 

Pavel may be among the moderate career leaders as a Canuck but he doesn't even have 500 points as a Canuck.  The records pre-Sedin are pretty modest.  I think Bure doesn't have as many points in his entire career as either Linden or Smyl have as Canucks.  The HOF committee waited quite a while to decide to induct Bure due to being sorely lacking in longevity and career totals.

Your argument would be a lot stronger if Stan Smyl was not setting the bar.  In my opinion, he never should have had his number retired.  That bar was way too low.  Henrik and Daniel should have been the 1st ones to have their numbers retired.  It would have set a much higher bar (1000+ games, 1000+ points, numerous awards, etc).

 

Anyways, going back to the argument though...

 

Bure ranks as follows:

Points All Time - 7th

Goals All Time - 5th

Playoff Points All Time - 4th

Playoff Goals All Time - 1st

AVERAGE RANK - 4th (just did some simple math 7+5+4+1 divided by 4 categories)

 

I won't go into PPG or GPG because that would be a bias on my end.  He'd rank 1st in every category.

 

Mogilny with Sabres:

Points All Time - 13th

Goals All Time - 12th

Playoff Points All Time - 14th

Playoff Goals All Time - 10th

AVERAGE RANK - 12th

 

Selanne with original Jets franchise (current Jets are not the same franchise -- so unless you want to place him amongst Atlanta Thrashers players....)

Points All Time - 9th

Goals All Time - 7th

Playoff Points All Time - 21st

Playoff Goals All Time - 12th

AVERAGE RANK - 12th

 

Hull is a St Louis Blue.  PERIOD.  That's his iconic image.  Most people in the hockey world would not picture Hull as a Dallas Star over a St Louis Blue.

 

There you go.  From a statistical standpoint, Bure ranks way higher with this franchise than Mogilny or Selanne with the Sabres/Jets.  THAT is why Bure's #10 deserves to be retired. 

 

If you're curious...

 

Hull with Stars:

Points All Time - 20th

Goals All Time - 10th

Playoff Points All Time - 5th

Playoff Goals All Time - 4th

AVERAGE RANK - 10th

[HKSR]

6 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

 

I saw Bure play...almost every game that was televised and I listened to almost every game that wasn't on the radio along with the pensioners, the blind...

 

I have Bure as a Ring of Honour guy, more like Ring of Honour and a half...but I don't have him as a retired jersey and at least not unquestionably so.  The same with Markus Naslund.  The only unquestionable ones are Smyl, Linden and the Sedins for me.

 

Bure does rate at the top or very high in the questions you provided, but you did select questions that would have him at the top.  There are players who won't have their numbers retired or even have it discussed near the top of some of those lists (Tony Tanti, etc.)...

 

And there are other important lists where Bure doesn't even register at all.

 

- Greatest on ice leaders as a Canuck

- Greatest off ice leaders / best in the community

- Most seasons

- Most games

- Most heart - Bure might be somewhere respectable on the overall list but not at the top.  And questions like this are why Terry O'Reilly is retired in Boston

- Does he even seem to like the team and the city?

 

A number of teams had their most talented player ever (or close to it) for a cup of coffee or a handful of seasons...and it just wasn't enough for a retirement.  Adam Oates in St. Louis and Boston, Dino Ciccarelli in Minnesota and Washington, Mike Gartner the same, Larry Murphy wherever he played, Kent Nilsson in Calgary, etc.

 

I'm not steadfastly against the Bure jersey retirement, same with Naslund, but there is a tier above them for that honour with the four players I considered slam dunks...captained the team to a Cup final, all pretty much retired as the career record holders for the team in games, goals, assists and points (save for Henrik with goals).  These guys were what it meant to be a Canuck and for a long time.  Bure was just a really awesome player and a lot of fun to watch for a moderate stretch of time in Vancouver.

 

When it comes to jersey retirement and how I would apply the criteria...I would probably have Bure a little below Snepsts to be honest.

 

 

 

Just playing devils advocate using your criteria.  Here are the top 15 players in Canucks history in terms of games played:

 

Henrik

Daniel

Linden

Edler

Smyl

Naslund

Burrows

Snepsts

Ohlund

Kearns

Lidster

Kesler

Gradin

Butcher

Bieksa

 

If we went off your criteria, I'd see these jerseys retired in the rafters:

Henrik, Daniel, Linden, Smyl, Naslund, Burrows, Snepsts, Kesler, and Bieksa

 

All in the top 15 games played, all great off the ice and in the community, all have the heart of a Canuck, and all seem to have that soft spot for the city.

 

Are you ready to see guys like Burrows, Snepsts, Bieksa, and maybe even Kesler have their jerseys retired?  Why not?

[Kevin Biestra]

7 hours ago, HKSR said:

Just playing devils advocate using your criteria.  Here are the top 15 players in Canucks history in terms of games played:

 

Henrik

Daniel

Linden

Edler

Smyl

Naslund

Burrows

Snepsts

Ohlund

Kearns

Lidster

Kesler

Gradin

Butcher

Bieksa

 

If we went off your criteria, I'd see these jerseys retired in the rafters:

Henrik, Daniel, Linden, Smyl, Naslund, Burrows, Snepsts, Kesler, and Bieksa

 

All in the top 15 games played, all great off the ice and in the community, all have the heart of a Canuck, and all seem to have that soft spot for the city.

 

Are you ready to see guys like Burrows, Snepsts, Bieksa, and maybe even Kesler have their jerseys retired?  Why not?

 

Even if you were to have correctly estimated how I would weigh the criteria relative to each other, I don't know why you've taken it upon yourself to say where I would set the bar for jersey retirement and also to set it that low.  That's an invention of your own.

 

I already said I would retire four numbers: Smyl, Sedin, Sedin and Linden.  And that next closest would probably be Snepsts or maybe Naslund.

 

Why would anything I said mean Kesler or Bieksa would have their jerseys in the rafters?  As for Snepsts...I'm not really that opposed.  I would see he is another "Ring of Honour and a half" guy.

 

Also...from that top fifteen list I would have Gradin ahead of Kesler and Bieksa for potential jersey retirement.  The only ones that I wouldn't put in the ROH are maybe Kesler, Bieksa, Kearns and Butcher.  And I wouldn't completely rule them out either.  Lidster and Gradin are seriously overlooked in this market.  Some others on that list as well but Gradin, like Smyl, retired as the Canucks career scoring leader and was a significant part of the 82 run and, like Smyl, held the Canucks record for points in a season as well.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[Kevin Biestra]

8 hours ago, HKSR said:

Your argument would be a lot stronger if Stan Smyl was not setting the bar.  In my opinion, he never should have had his number retired.  That bar was way too low.  Henrik and Daniel should have been the 1st ones to have their numbers retired.  It would have set a much higher bar (1000+ games, 1000+ points, numerous awards, etc).

 

Anyways, going back to the argument though...

 

Bure ranks as follows:

Points All Time - 7th

Goals All Time - 5th

Playoff Points All Time - 4th

Playoff Goals All Time - 1st

AVERAGE RANK - 4th (just did some simple math 7+5+4+1 divided by 4 categories)

 

I won't go into PPG or GPG because that would be a bias on my end.  He'd rank 1st in every category.

 

Mogilny with Sabres:

Points All Time - 13th

Goals All Time - 12th

Playoff Points All Time - 14th

Playoff Goals All Time - 10th

AVERAGE RANK - 12th

 

Selanne with original Jets franchise (current Jets are not the same franchise -- so unless you want to place him amongst Atlanta Thrashers players....)

Points All Time - 9th

Goals All Time - 7th

Playoff Points All Time - 21st

Playoff Goals All Time - 12th

AVERAGE RANK - 12th

 

Hull is a St Louis Blue.  PERIOD.  That's his iconic image.  Most people in the hockey world would not picture Hull as a Dallas Star over a St Louis Blue.

 

There you go.  From a statistical standpoint, Bure ranks way higher with this franchise than Mogilny or Selanne with the Sabres/Jets.  THAT is why Bure's #10 deserves to be retired. 

 

If you're curious...

 

Hull with Stars:

Points All Time - 20th

Goals All Time - 10th

Playoff Points All Time - 5th

Playoff Goals All Time - 4th

AVERAGE RANK - 10th

 

If you are a forward, especially a scoring forward and not a Selke type...then having less than 500 points with your team (as is the case with Bure) is a fairly significant knock against you even if that team's scoring history is poor enough that you are still 7th all time.

 

Anyway like I said I'm not terribly opposed to the retirement.  I think he falls a bit short when it's all added up but it's not ridiculous like Roenick in Phoenix.

[Kevin Biestra]

8 hours ago, HKSR said:

Are you ready to see guys like Burrows, Snepsts, Bieksa, and maybe even Kesler have their jerseys retired?  Why not?

 

I realized that I left this question unanswered.

 

Kesler...  Why not?  Lack of career totals, relatively poor relationship with the city and fans.  What he has going for him is a Selke Trophy, a finals run and one legendary playoff round.  Not enough games, not enough seasons, left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.  He would already be in the ROH except for the bad taste and he made his own bed there.

 

Bieksa...  Why not?  Lack of career totals, a good leader but not a captain, a good physical player and fan favorite but not an Odjick.  Maybe if he had 1000 games or something.

 

Burrows...  Why not?  One of the most important goals in Canuck history, 800 games, a fan favorite but that's a beautiful case for the ROH not jersey retirement.  Maybe if he (or anyone) gets to 1000 games in a Canucks jersey the onus shifts to why they shouldn't be in the rafters, but anyway Burrows is a classic ROH guy.

 

Snepsts...  I wouldn't really have a problem with a jersey retirement if they went that way.  He was the original Trevor Linden...the city's favorite son who was sent to another team (around 1984) and made his return back home a few years later (around 1988).  Had a run to the finals, played in the All Star Game, retired at the top for games and penalty minutes among defensemen and was pretty much the counterpart to Smyl as a forward and Brodeur as a goalie in that regard.  For the first 20 years of the team's existence there was probably nobody more identifiable as a Canuck or as strongly identified with the Canucks.

[Kevin Biestra]

On 11/21/2022 at 4:09 AM, IBatch said:

If we did another one, "greatest playoff performers"  for example, then that list becomes totally different.   89-96 teams would dominate the list, followed by the Sedin teams with some early 80's guys and some WCE era ones.   Playoff series won matters too.   IF we kept Ronning (big mistake) and that early 90's team together during their peak primes which we didn't,  things would look even more lopsided.  

 

For example:  Linden, McLean, Bure, Ronning, Courtnall, Adams, Sedin Sedin, Lumme,  Babcyh,  Broduer, Salo, Burrows, Bieksa and guys like Momesso despite not here long, bump guys like Hansen and even Kesler moves down the list quite a bit.     Feel that playoffs should be weighted higher then regular season accolades.   Mogilny might not even make the list.

 

Mogilny...one playoff round ever for the Canucks but 9 points in 6 games.  Tricky one.  Wouldn't rate too high on the list but that's still pretty good.  Time to get that guy in the HOF anyway.  They need to do another Doug Wilson year where they just take care of outstanding business.  I nominate Mogilny, Fleury, Nicholls and...I dunno, one more of those 1000 point guys that has been waiting too long.  Dave Taylor?  Brian Propp?  Pierre Turgeon?  Rod the Bod?

 

Anyway, your list of Canuck playoff performers is good.  Gradin, Tiger Williams, Ivan Boldirev, Lars Molin, Curt Fraser and Darcy Rota all played their role in making 1982 happen as well.  And Harold despite his one Steve Smith / Bill Buckner moment.  Gradin is a point a game for his playoff career with the Canucks and a pretty good sample size (38 games).

 

Murray Craven and Jeff Brown managed to make their mark with brief stays as well.

 

Russ Courtnall was surprisingly good despite being given no thought in this regard (16 points in 17 games).

 

 

 

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Mogilny...one playoff round ever for the Canucks but 9 points in 6 games.  Tricky one.  Wouldn't rate too high on the list but that's still pretty good.  Time to get that guy in the HOF anyway.  They need to do another Doug Wilson year where they just take care of outstanding business.  I nominate Mogilny, Fleury, Nicholls and...I dunno, one more of those 1000 point guys that has been waiting too long.  Dave Taylor?  Brian Propp?  Pierre Turgeon?  Rod the Bod?

 

Anyway, your list of Canuck playoff performers is good.  Gradin, Tiger Williams, Ivan Boldirev, Lars Molin, Curt Fraser and Darcy Rota all played their role in making 1982 happen as well.  And Harold despite his one Steve Smith / Bill Buckner moment.  Gradin is a point a game for his playoff career with the Canucks and a pretty good sample size (38 games).

 

Murray Craven and Jeff Brown managed to make their mark with brief stays as well.

 

Russ Courtnall was surprisingly good despite being given no thought in this regard (16 points in 17 games).

 

 

 

 

    My guess is Mogilny hasn't made the hall because of what people had to say about his off ice stuff.   After watching the video of Gartner and McDonald calling this class of folks - can see that they definitely weight how a hockey player acts off the ice as part of their criteria for getting in.   This favours guys like Rod the Bod i'm sure.   Turgeon  should already be in given other guys made it in despite never being a trophy winner or winning a cup.  Scored almost as many points as Sundin, in less games.   515 goals!  1327 points! 1294 games.   And did his thing no matter where he went.    Don't get that one personally.    Not his fault that his career moment was Dale Hunter crushing him and breaking bones after taking the NYI on an unlikely run.  

 

Joe Thornton is this generations Mark Rechhi.   Or Dave Andreychuk.   Longevity.    Marleau is an outlier in this respect too.   Not enough though (Marleau). 

 

I do wonder where Crosby and Ovi end up by the time they are done.   My guess is if they get to 1400-1500 games, which seems plausible, both guys end up bumping some awfully great legends.   And truly happy that younger folks got to see what greatness looks like.  

 

Back when Mark Recchi and Dave Andreychuk were inducted - and Federko there was some blow back.   Because it's the "Hockey Hall of Fame" and not the Hockey Hall of Very Good.   Writers weren't super keen on any of these inductions because they didn't see  longevity or that folks that didn't win major awards or cups should get in (yet).   One of these  was always going to change with expansion.   Can't win a cup often anymore.   So expect to see a lot more guys haven't got in eventually get their do.   These guys all check some of those boxes.   

 

Lowe getting inducted too.   The bar has to lower to keep it running.   Weber should actually make it, even if he didn't get a major award given he was the leagues 2-10th best the majority of his career.    Not sure how i feel about it.   But it is what it is.   Luongo and the Sedins getting in first ballot was something.   Luongo was the most deserving really of this class.  

 

On that.   I wonder what HKSR feels about a Luongo jersey retirement too.   Because really, what he did with Canucks, is a pretty good comp with Bure. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by IBatch

[HKSR]

8 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

If you are a forward, especially a scoring forward and not a Selke type...then having less than 500 points with your team (as is the case with Bure) is a fairly significant knock against you even if that team's scoring history is poor enough that you are still 7th all time.

 

Anyway like I said I'm not terribly opposed to the retirement.  I think he falls a bit short when it's all added up but it's not ridiculous like Roenick in Phoenix.

To me this sounds like Bure is penalized because the bar was set so low.  Like I said before, if these were retro decisions, I would only have the Sedins numbers retired.  I feel like this franchise is ready to retire any captain that plays long enough and puts up a decent amount of points. From Smyl, to Linden, to Naslund, etc.  I bet if Bo signs a long term deal and retires a Canuck, he'll probably have his jersey retired too.  The bar was set way too low with Smyl.  Hopefully the bar has been raised with the Sedins.

 

Bure is 1st in all-time playoff goals and 4th in all-time playoff points.  Arguably scored one of the most iconic goals in history as well (7th game OT against Calgary in '94).  Do we just ignore those facts? 

 

As I mentioned before, from a statistical point of view, Bure did more than 99%+ of the players that ever donned a Canucks jersey.  To penalize him by saying he didn't play here long enough (even though he ranks among the best of the best over the course of the history of this franchise) wouldn't be fair IMO.

 

Like I said before, the bar was set WAY too low.  Did you know this franchise has just 1 less jersey retired than the Edmonton Oilers??  The Edmonton Oilers which had hall of fame players all over the place in the 80s.  We have DOUBLE the amount of jerseys retired than the Calgary Flames and they had some immensely prolific players over the years as well. 

 

55 minutes ago, IBatch said:

    My guess is Mogilny hasn't made the hall because of what people had to say about his off ice stuff.   After watching the video of Gartner and McDonald calling this class of folks - can see that they definitely weight how a hockey player acts off the ice as part of their criteria for getting in.   This favours guys like Rod the Bod i'm sure.   Turgeon  should already be in given other guys made it in despite never being a trophy winner or winning a cup.  Scored almost as many points as Sundin, in less games.   515 goals!  1327 points! 1294 games.   And did his thing no matter where he went.    Don't get that one personally.    Not his fault that his career moment was Dale Hunter crushing him and breaking bones after taking the NYI on an unlikely run.  

 

Joe Thornton is this generations Mark Rechhi.   Or Dave Andreychuk.   Longevity.    Marleau is an outlier in this respect too.   Not enough though (Marleau). 

 

I do wonder where Crosby and Ovi end up by the time they are done.   My guess is if they get to 1400-1500 games, which seems plausible, both guys end up bumping some awfully great legends.   And truly happy that younger folks got to see what greatness looks like.  

 

Back when Mark Recchi and Dave Andreychuk were inducted - and Federko there was some blow back.   Because it's the "Hockey Hall of Fame" and not the Hockey Hall of Very Good.   Writers weren't super keen on any of these inductions because they didn't see  longevity or that folks that didn't win major awards or cups should get in (yet).   One of these  was always going to change with expansion.   Can't win a cup often anymore.   So expect to see a lot more guys haven't got in eventually get their do.   These guys all check some of those boxes.   

 

Lowe getting inducted too.   The bar has to lower to keep it running.   Weber should actually make it, even if he didn't get a major award given he was the leagues 2-10th best the majority of his career.    Not sure how i feel about it.   But it is what it is.   Luongo and the Sedins getting in first ballot was something.   Luongo was the most deserving really of this class.  

 

On that.   I wonder what HKSR feels about a Luongo jersey retirement too.   Because really, what he did with Canucks, is a pretty good comp with Bure. 

The issue I have with Luongo is that McLean's #1 was never retired.  McLean and Luongo are either #1 or #2 all-time in all statistical categories for this franchise.  If McLean's #1 was retired, and Luongo had to pick a different number, I'd have no problem with Luongo's jersey being retired too.  Evidently, the bar is set quite high for a goalie to have his jersey retired here.  That's a good thing.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by HKSR

[HKSR]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I realized that I left this question unanswered.

 

Kesler...  Why not?  Lack of career totals, relatively poor relationship with the city and fans.  What he has going for him is a Selke Trophy, a finals run and one legendary playoff round.  Not enough games, not enough seasons, left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.  He would already be in the ROH except for the bad taste and he made his own bed there.

 

Bieksa...  Why not?  Lack of career totals, a good leader but not a captain, a good physical player and fan favorite but not an Odjick.  Maybe if he had 1000 games or something.

 

Burrows...  Why not?  One of the most important goals in Canuck history, 800 games, a fan favorite but that's a beautiful case for the ROH not jersey retirement.  Maybe if he (or anyone) gets to 1000 games in a Canucks jersey the onus shifts to why they shouldn't be in the rafters, but anyway Burrows is a classic ROH guy.

 

Snepsts...  I wouldn't really have a problem with a jersey retirement if they went that way.  He was the original Trevor Linden...the city's favorite son who was sent to another team (around 1984) and made his return back home a few years later (around 1988).  Had a run to the finals, played in the All Star Game, retired at the top for games and penalty minutes among defensemen and was pretty much the counterpart to Smyl as a forward and Brodeur as a goalie in that regard.  For the first 20 years of the team's existence there was probably nobody more identifiable as a Canuck or as strongly identified with the Canucks.

So you have said Smyl, Sedins, and Linden.  Why not Naslund?

 

From a statistical point of view:

 

Smyl - 896 games

Naslund - 884 games

 

Smyl - 673 points

Naslund - 756 points

 

Smyl - 262 goals

Naslund - 346 goals

 

Smyl - Captain? Check!

Naslund - Captain? Check!

 

Smyl - Heart of a Canuck, loves this city, loves the fans - Check!

Naslund - Heart of a Canuck, loves this city, loves the fans - Check!

 

Smyl - Great in the community and off the ice in general - Check!

Naslund - Great in the community and off the ice in general - Check!

 

This is why I feel statistics are vitally important in determining whether jerseys get retired, otherwise it becomes purely an emotional decision and that really blurs the lines and lowers the bar considerably (ie. Smyl).  Why else do you think we have nearly as many jerseys retired as the Edmonton Oilers?

[Gurn]

8 minutes ago, HKSR said:

So you have said Smyl, Sedins, and Linden.  Why not Naslund?

Imo:

Because he choked?.

Smyl was about more than points.

He hit

he fought

he scored

he got assists

he led

and he helped cement a culture of giving and caring about the city.

not many players lead their teams in points and fight in the same season, or even in different seasons.

The Twins and Linden? are recent enough that most know why they are there.

Bure- kind of by default- his former agent was the GM at the time of his jersey lifting, and the guy is in the HHOF.

 

Naslund is one I'd not have retired. Classy guy, but not quite up there with Smyl and Linden.

If you are told you HAVE to take one of those jerseys out of the rafters and back into use- Naslund is the first jersey to come down, and Bure's is second down.

[HKSR]

8 minutes ago, gurn said:

Imo:

Because he choked?.

Smyl was about more than points.

He hit

he fought

he scored

he got assists

he led

and he helped cement a culture of giving and caring about the city.

not many players lead their teams in points and fight in the same season, or even in different seasons.

The Twins and Linden? are recent enough that most know why they are there.

Bure- kind of by default- his former agent was the GM at the time of his jersey lifting, and the guy is in the HHOF.

 

Naslund is one I'd not have retired. Classy guy, but not quite up there with Smyl and Linden.

If you are told you HAVE to take one of those jerseys out of the rafters and back into use- Naslund is the first jersey to come down, and Bure's is second down.

So fighting and hitting are part of the requirement of a jersey retirement?

Anyways, I'm not gonna defend Naslund's jersey, cuz like I said, I only think the Sedins should be up there in retrospect.  1000+ games, 1000+ points should be the bar.  There really shouldn't have been a jersey retirement until now.  The bar was set WAY too low.  But because the bar was set there, Bure more than deserves to be up there.