The Hypocrisy in the Media and the Fanbase about the New Regime

[Hairy Kneel]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

This is true.  But back in 2012 we still were a top team.   And aside from Schnieder, Gillis going for it cap structure meant everyone on the team down to even Hansen lol, was fully claused up.   Don't know why  some fans still don't get this.    Not saying your wrong because of course your not.  

 

What we should have done is let the Sedins walk and rebuilt around Kesler and used that cap savings wisely.   It was a mess really.   And JB never really had much of a chance and neither would anyone else.    Back then our taxes were decent too.   Like the Alberta teams are now.    The team had zero ability to sell assets for the future, plus had 8... think about that - 8 consecutive years of the worst drafting in club history.   Maybe even in league history too.    And people wonder why 2nds were used to bring in tweeners (also a mistake ... re-tool was a failure).  

 

To me at least - it was like starting a new team under the old rules of expansion with a glut of long in the tooth guys and a few mid level vets in Edler and Tanev.   And Horvat was the new clubs expansion picks   We didn't get a first or second overall or even a third lol.    ATL and CLB took a decade to get their ship sorted.    And well that actually was a reasonable time table for us as well.    Said so as much at the time - best case and this is best case, parts of the JB core and some of what's coming up behind (10-14 year olds now) maybe puts us back on top again.   32 teams.   It's depressing to be pragmatic about.   53.02% taxes.     Bobrovsky takes home almost 900k more then McDavid lol... and those guys pay what we used too, as in 47.5ish %....
 

The correct targets are expansion and taxes.   Two things that make it awfully difficult for Canadian and most teams.   Can see why (and i'm not a huge fan of this) that they are trying to be team Sweden.   Team US  ... don't be shocked to see Miller, QHs, Demko etc playing down South their next deals.    

 

That's my b!tch for the day lol.   Vote for a different party then the NDP i suppose if you want a roll back in taxes.   Which rarely happens.    And well with our without the Sedins it was still going to take time.   At least we had them their entire careers ... that's extremely rare these days and first ballot HHOFers because of what they did on the ice, and what type of people they are - first class.  

 

Present day.   This is a team that's easy to like.   No it's not perfect, but it does have quite a bit to like about it.   Forward progression now and the next 4 years we have a good shot at making some waves. 

It would have been great to see them traded for a chance at a cup. Even both for a 1st and a mid level veteran. Instead of LE, sign Cutterbuck and Helm. Steady mid level signings. Save cap and drop in the standings some,  without the twins artificially holding us up offensively. 

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

It would have been great to see them traded for a chance at a cup. Even both for a 1st and a mid level veteran. Instead of LE, sign Cutterbuck and Helm. Steady mid level signings. Save cap and drop in the standings some,  without the twins artificially holding us up offensively. 

This i'm in total agreement with.   Think that the bounce back 7th overall finish (and consider what fans, including myself, feel about this teams chances next season with Miller and co in the lineup ... best case maybe and this is if they could do their pace down the stretch all season, maybe a 4-8 finish with around 105 - 112 points, because that was the Bruce pace overall sample size and last 25ish game pace) fooled JB and Linden.    They double downed on their re-tool.    However CAL bouncing us should have been a big clue.  

 

Linden left.   Nobody knows exactly why or what the rift was, but it certainly had to do with what he thought the direction the club was different then what JB believed.    To me that was exactly what you just commented on.   At that point, anyone who was an asset that could be traded other then Horvat should have been dumped.   And we needed to punch holes in the hull instead of "being competitive blah blah blah" and created an internal cap.    

 

Thing is, we'd likely have not drafted EP. Or QHs for that matter.   Instead of a 2nd worst and 5th worst record at our lowest point, probably 2nd (Col was way too far away from us lol like terrible that year they drafted Makar - and even they likely wouldn't have if they didn't slip 3 spots!) maybe we'd have Patrick or Hirshier instead.    
 

In the end it worked out just ok.   Where instead maybe we'd be a much better team.   OJ pick hurt us the most.   Way more then LE.   If instead we drafted Sergachev, or Chychrun... it's really unfortunate. 

 

Edit:  The dichotomy of the re-tool which is funny is JB created a team that sucked enough anyways - and eventually we did enter an actual rebuild - Bieksa, Hansen and Burrows waived.   That was the exact moment in time that this team entered their rebuild, 2017 i believe. Problem is by then they were just experienced vets with not much to offer.    All JB and Co needed to do back in 2014, was not sign Miller and Vrbata.    Then what your suggesting would have happened when these guys had better value.   We'd have instead missed the playoffs.   Two years in a row.   And Bieksa likely would have bailed and got us a first instead of a second etc...  hindsight is just that.   A ton of fans were stoked we finished 7th overall... and bought into the idea we could re-tool.   SJ did.   And they went to game six of the final, and we were almost exactly the same aged team as them (Marleau/Thornton and the Sedins etc) ... DET/VAN/SJ won more games then any other team from 2000-2014 in the regular season. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 8/27/2022 at 2:42 PM, Provost said:

I had posted way back that we can't fully judge the Miller trade until he is re-signed, walks, or is traded for something back.

It was absolutely the right scouting to recognize some untapped potential in Miller.  He was a guy working his way down the lineups in New York and Tampa... not a guy who was working his way up.  He was often a 3rd liner on those teams and had baggage about his attitude and compete level.  He came here and has become a legitimated top line player who is known for his compete and drive (though the attitude issues seems to still be there when things on the ice aren't going well).

Definite kudos to Benning and the pro scouting folks for that.

On the other side, if we don't have any real success during his entire time under club control that we traded for... how can that be a win since it didn't get us anywhere nearer the goal of winning a Stanley Cup and currently has a decent chance of moving us farther away from that goal?  It was a clear misjudgement about how ready the team was to win.  Giving up 1st round picks for a team that was scuffling along the bottom of the standings and years away from contending isn't an ideal playbook.  There is a reason that rebuilding teams try to add those sorts of assets and not trade them away.

If you subtract Miller from our 2019-2020 roster we end up somewhere worse in the standings and probably use that pick to draft one of the exact calibre of young players (or better) than we are "hoping" to get as a return for him now.  (Schneider, Holtz, Lafreniere, Raymond, Stutzle; Lundell, Drysdale, Mercer, Byfield, etc).  As of right now, if any of those players plus a 3rd round pick was offered for Miller... I take that and run.  That would really represent the Miller trade being pretty much a wash since those are the guys who would have been available to us with that pick.

To me the two biggest wins for Benning were drafting Petterson (not off the board but also not the consensus pick of guys remaining) and trading for Miller.  If we end up with a better asset for Miller or him signed to less cap hit than we could replace his roster spot in free agency... that will solidify it as a win in the end.  If he walks, gets signed for full market value, or gets traded for an underwhelming return then it is a loss in my books, no matter how his play on the ice turned out.  I gauge moves by whether they move us closer to a Cup or not.  After next season, if we don't have Miller or NHL ready assets back... to me we are farther away from a Cup than if we had have kept the picks and have a young, cheap, club controlled player like Braden Schneider or  on the roster.

Of course it is hard to play "what if" as there are so many moving variables outside the trade itself, it is entirely possible we kept that pick and whiffed on the selection.  There are lots of guys drafted in the top 20 that year who are now not living up to their draft potential.  He could have also signed another bad long term contract with the cap money he would have saved by not having Miller on the books.

Huh?  How is Miler "working his way down the lineup" behind Point and Stamkos?  What did TB trade for him again. and didn't NYR go ahead with a full blown exodus aside from Krieder?  This "attitude" stuff is coming from where?  The CDC?  NYR and TB loved Miller ... TB signed him and traded him because they had to before his clauses kicked in.   Which were about too.   3rd line almost 50 points lol.   Is elite.   Even on a good team, just over 14 minutes of play time behind Point and Stamkos.   NYR was going into a full rebuild...after Lundqvist, St. louis last hurrah.   This is a lot of conjecture.  It can be a loss in your books that's ok.   In my books, i'm glad we traded for him.   So is Podz.   And EP, Bruce recently called him the leader of this team.   Horvat played more inspired then ever down the stretch.  

 

Sure maybe we should have just kept sucking for another two years.   And maybe we'd still suck today as a result.  Who knows.   To me price paid in full already.   Know that might not be popular with some.     Maybe it's because i watched too much pre-cap hockey when you had a good player you actually were excited about it.  

 

Edit:  Provost i also agree that things would be different if we didn't sign Myers and trade for Miller.   At least JB is gone right?   And we got a sample size with these kids (and Horvat) that hopefully will continue to grow this year, with the season that actually matters.    The second one.   To me he's like Geoff Courtnall plus ... have him around for four years, enjoy him while we have him.   That's about it.   The CDC is a fickle machine ... unless we win a cup, i'm sure folks will complain about how Miller stuff works out, signed, not signed, traded, not traded.    A bad trade actually makes things worse.   As in some dud we invest in that's bad cap.   It happens.    Anyways, i'm settled in just to enjoy Miller while he's here.   I'm sure his teammates will miss him, same with fans.  

Edited August 29, 2022 by IBatch

[DSVII]

15 hours ago, IBatch said:

The CDC is a fickle machine ... unless we win a cup, i'm sure folks will complain about how Miller stuff works out, signed, not signed, traded, not traded.    A bad trade actually makes things worse.   As in some dud we invest in that's bad cap.   It happens.    Anyways, i'm settled in just to enjoy Miller while he's here.   I'm sure his teammates will miss him, same with fans.  

Nah if we win a cup, guaranteed we'll still have some sour grapes saying that we should have had two cups by now from 2011

 

 

[DSVII]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:42 AM, Provost said:

To me the two biggest wins for Benning were drafting Petterson (not off the board but also not the consensus pick of guys remaining) and trading for Miller.  If we end up with a better asset for Miller or him signed to less cap hit than we could replace his roster spot in free agency... that will solidify it as a win in the end.  If he walks, gets signed for full market value, or gets traded for an underwhelming return then it is a loss in my books, no matter how his play on the ice turned out.  I gauge moves by whether they move us closer to a Cup or not.  After next season, if we don't have Miller or NHL ready assets back... to me we are farther away from a Cup than if we had have kept the picks and have a young, cheap, club controlled player like Braden Schneider or  on the roster.
 

Hughes will have a bigger long term positive impact on this club than Miller, I put drafting Petey/Hughes/Demko as his biggest wins.

 

Miller remains to be seen, but the fact that we're in this cap crunch mess is thanks to the last management group that took things 'day to day'

 

 

[Provost]

24 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Hughes will have a bigger long term positive impact on this club than Miller, I put drafting Petey/Hughes/Demko as his biggest wins.

 

Miller remains to be seen, but the fact that we're in this cap crunch mess is thanks to the last management group that took things 'day to day'

 

 

It is probably the best thing they happened during his tenure… but I don’t really count it is one of his biggest wins.  Picking Hughes where he dropped to was a complete no brainer as he was the BPA available on virtually every major prospect ranking when we ended up picking.  He was #4 on a lot of lists and it was crazy he dropped to us.

 

There was legitimate debate on who to pick in the Petterson spot.  Nobody had Petterson as high as #5, he was ranked 7-20th depending on what list you looked at.  I would have probably picked Glass Tippett, or Mittlestadt in that spot based on the projection at the time.  
 

Just how I think about it.  Same way as I won’t think whoever picks Bedard next draft is particularly a win for them.  My grandma could make that pick.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Provost

[alt kilgore]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:42 AM, Provost said:

I had posted way back that we can't fully judge the Miller trade until he is re-signed, walks, or is traded for something back.

It was absolutely the right scouting to recognize some untapped potential in Miller.  He was a guy working his way down the lineups in New York and Tampa... not a guy who was working his way up.  He was often a 3rd liner on those teams and had baggage about his attitude and compete level.  He came here and has become a legitimated top line player who is known for his compete and drive (though the attitude issues seems to still be there when things on the ice aren't going well).

Definite kudos to Benning and the pro scouting folks for that.

On the other side, if we don't have any real success during his entire time under club control that we traded for... how can that be a win since it didn't get us anywhere nearer the goal of winning a Stanley Cup and currently has a decent chance of moving us farther away from that goal?  It was a clear misjudgement about how ready the team was to win.  Giving up 1st round picks for a team that was scuffling along the bottom of the standings and years away from contending isn't an ideal playbook.  There is a reason that rebuilding teams try to add those sorts of assets and not trade them away.

If you subtract Miller from our 2019-2020 roster we end up somewhere worse in the standings and probably use that pick to draft one of the exact calibre of young players (or better) than we are "hoping" to get as a return for him now.  (Schneider, Holtz, Lafreniere, Raymond, Stutzle; Lundell, Drysdale, Mercer, Byfield, etc).  As of right now, if any of those players plus a 3rd round pick was offered for Miller... I take that and run.  That would really represent the Miller trade being pretty much a wash since those are the guys who would have been available to us with that pick.

To me the two biggest wins for Benning were drafting Petterson (not off the board but also not the consensus pick of guys remaining) and trading for Miller.  If we end up with a better asset for Miller or him signed to less cap hit than we could replace his roster spot in free agency... that will solidify it as a win in the end.  If he walks, gets signed for full market value, or gets traded for an underwhelming return then it is a loss in my books, no matter how his play on the ice turned out.  I gauge moves by whether they move us closer to a Cup or not.  After next season, if we don't have Miller or NHL ready assets back... to me we are farther away from a Cup than if we had have kept the picks and have a young, cheap, club controlled player like Braden Schneider or  on the roster.

Of course it is hard to play "what if" as there are so many moving variables outside the trade itself, it is entirely possible we kept that pick and whiffed on the selection.  There are lots of guys drafted in the top 20 that year who are now not living up to their draft potential.  He could have also signed another bad long term contract with the cap money he would have saved by not having Miller on the books.

"To me the two biggest wins for Benning were drafting Petterson (not off the board but also not the consensus pick of guys remaining) and trading for Miller.  If we end up with a better asset for Miller or him signed to less cap hit than we could replace his roster spot in free agency... that will solidify it as a win in the end.  If he walks, gets signed for full market value, or gets traded for an underwhelming return then it is a loss in my books, no matter how his play on the ice turned out."

 

I'll give Pettersson to JB.  Because technically, and ultimately, he did make the final decision.  But by all accounts he had to be dragged into it.  And, in all probability, that was only because he was still feeling the burn from his previous insistence on taking Virtanen and OJ.  From The Hockey News:

 

https://thehockeynews.com/news/this-seasons-best-free-agent-might-end-up-being-vancouvers-judd-brackett

 

Brackett was ostensibly in charge of the draft, but it doesn't sound like he always had the easiest time convincing his boss to make certain choices. Thankfully for Canucks fans, Brackett has prevailed more often than not - particularly at the 2017 draft when a skinny Swede was available early.

"My understanding," said the scout, "is that Pettersson was never a guy Benning wanted."

 

Even Podkolzin was had due to the persistence of Brackett. Further down in the article,

 

From the sounds of it, both Benning and Brackett were sold on Hughes in 2018, so there was no controversy there. But in 2019, a fissure in the department reared up again over the first-rounder. Brackett lobbied (and won) on rambunctious Russian right winger Vasili Podkolzin, but other names were championed by others on staff.

 

Sounds to me that the Canucks were dam lucky to have Brackett here when he was.  Let go for showing up the boss IMHO.  Still burns that JB just gifted the Wild him, and they now have one of the best Amateur Scouting directors in the league, who was mainly responsible for the unexpected "accidental" rebuild here, despite JB's constant bungling.

 

We'll see if we do get a fair, or better yet a great, haul for Miller.  History has proven that, whether its geological, time zones, population density, or simply indifference, GMs, who are mostly out East, for some reason, do not value our players as much as, not only fans, but our GMs as well.  Yeah, getting back a "for sure" first round pick, seasoned a couple years in the minors already, who has already proven himself an elite prospect in the NHL and and ready for a bigger role, is a step up from a mid high first round pick shot, that is still unpredictable.  Then I will say Benning won that trade, using your requirement of getting us closer to the Cup.  And in all honesty that player will still most likely not be as impactful as Miller would be for us in the next few years, but that would balance out by the age factor, how long we can hope to keep him, and the immediate cap savings which would garner us yet another good piece, or ability to re-sign a valued current player.

[DSVII]

3 hours ago, Provost said:

It is probably the best thing they happened during his tenure… but I don’t really count it is one of his biggest wins.  Picking Hughes where he dropped to was a complete no brainer as he was the BPA available on virtually every major prospect ranking when we ended up picking.  He was #4 on a lot of lists and it was crazy he dropped to us.

 

There was legitimate debate on who to pick in the Petterson spot.  Nobody had Petterson as high as #5, he was ranked 7-20th depending on what list you looked at.  I would have probably picked Glass Tippett, or Mittlestadt in that spot based on the projection at the time.  
 

Just how I think about it.  Same way as I won’t think whoever picks Bedard next draft is particularly a win for them.  My grandma could make that pick.

Just trying to be charitable hehe.

 

Yes, Benning did something anyone with a hockey magazine could have done, but it was a franchise altering positive move that happened under his watch. As GM, you take responsibility for everything in the org, good and bad.

 

Besides, that was still in the context of having Olli Juolevi happen in 2016. I'm giving him credit for not missing the layup, which has happened so many times with the management group. 

 

My greatest fear from 2018 was just not going with that obvious choice. I still have 2016 PTSD when he stepped up to the podium.

 

"From the London Knights....."

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by DSVII

[Ghostsof1915]

On 8/27/2022 at 2:19 PM, Hairy Kneel said:

It would have been great to see them traded for a chance at a cup. Even both for a 1st and a mid level veteran. Instead of LE, sign Cutterbuck and Helm. Steady mid level signings. Save cap and drop in the standings some,  without the twins artificially holding us up offensively. 

What team had $12 million in cap space?

[Ghostsof1915]

13 hours ago, DSVII said:

Just trying to be charitable hehe.

 

Yes, Benning did something anyone with a hockey magazine could have done, but it was a franchise altering positive move that happened under his watch. As GM, you take responsibility for everything in the org, good and bad.

 

Besides, that was still in the context of having Olli Juolevi happen in 2016. I'm giving him credit for not missing the layup, which has happened so many times with the management group. 

 

My greatest fear from 2018 was just not going with that obvious choice. I still have 2016 PTSD when he stepped up to the podium.

 

"From the London Knights....."

 

 

Every team has picks that don't pan out. Pretty sure Philly is kicking themselves over Nolan Patrick. There's nothing wrong with improving our scouting. But you are still drafting 18 year olds and projecting where they will end up.

Personally I would have been happy getting Sergachev. I almost wonder if the team was so fixated on Pierre-Luc Dubois. That when he was picked at 3rd if that screwed up their plans.