The Hypocrisy in the Media and the Fanbase about the New Regime

[Dazzle]

8 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Well this is only their 1st offseason, they have upgraded the forward group immensely. And he said from day 1 the upgrade on defence will like have to come via trade.
 

We have never had this many teams against the cap so making cap space and upgrading defence isn’t going to happen overnight. 
 

I also find it hypocritical that you complain about the complaints of Benning while discrediting and already writing off this group in 6 months. 
 

You can’t have it both ways. 

I'm not 'writing off the group' though. The hypocrisy is really with the fanbase. Despite the criticisms that the defense has never been "good enough", and the fact that Poolman "sucks" and all that, JR has now come around to say that the defense is in fact good enough, and that Poolman is a very good one. Of course, this could be a PR message, rather than a factual one, but this begs the question about what the new group has decided. No movement at the TDL, and no movement at the draft. Not only are we keeping the status quo (which was deemed not good enough), we are going to sign Miller long term, which essentially repeats the same "criticisms" that Benning faced.

I'm sure Miller will be good, but it's hypocritical that people say they don't want players signed beyond 35+ long term, yet we are locking players up and not having any space to do anything else.

[Baratheon]

Pretty much everything in this entire thread has been acknowledged by our management and they've spoken about how they intend to address the problem.  JR has been on the job for 9ish months.  PA less time than that and of course then the entire front office that just got built (and is being judged already haha).  

 

Our D seems to be a popular gripe.  A few weeks ago he said that they'll likely be addressing that issue through trades.  He didn't say "yeah well we tried but oh well" as some of you seem to be insinuating. 

 

Lets see if everyone keeps singing this tune when the small moves (that get dismissed and ignored) start paying off.  

[DSVII]

12 hours ago, Dazzle said:

I'm not putting him on a pedestal. The problem is that the SAME criticisms about Benning are not being transferred equally over to a management that is largely replicating what happened last season.

There's word for this when you've been spouting about how Benning was hamstrung by Gillis and it would take years to fix his mistakes. Then rag on this group not doing much in half a season.

 

Or how everything was fine and dandy with this roster nine months ago and it just needed a different coach but now it needs to be torn down in record time in a cap strapped offseason because new management.

 

Or how a 28 year old defensemen in one regime is old and needs replacements drafted but two 30+ year old defensemen under another is fine with a 27th ranked prospect pool. 

 

Not to mention ignoring the value of draft position and how much it helps one regime vs the other. (i.e Benning picking 5th had no advantage vs Gillis picking at 29)

 

Think it starts with an H

 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by DSVII

[Darius]

One management group had 8 years, the current group has had 8 months.  I suspect if the team flounders (as it has under the previous GM) for another year or two you will see a lot more criticism. 

[alt kilgore]

15 hours ago, Dazzle said:

I'm not putting him on a pedestal. The problem is that the SAME criticisms about Benning are not being transferred equally over to a management that is largely replicating what happened last season.

 

1.  Its very different criticism.  Replicating what from last year?  I didn't see JR trying to ditch 3 bad contracts he had signed himself, exchanging past mistakes for another long term overpriced contract against the cap. I didn't see any picks or prospects being dealt away on a wish and a prayer to try and bandaid the team in order to limp into the playoffs.

 

2. One of the main reasons that JR can't do a lot can be directly traced back to JBs reckless decisions during his reign, especially the last few years desperate actions.  Hamstringing the team even further, and a deeper ditch to dig out of.   Its such a cluster#$%$ trying to recover from Bennings sabatoge, and depleting the prospect pool, losing value players while taking on devaluing players, that I'd give JR two or three years before I make any judgment.

 

3. I thought Benning's eight years failure was all Gillis's fault?  Now you've moved on to the "JR is not any better"?  I swear Dazzle, you've got to be a Benning relative. No one else could be so blindly devoted to arguably our worst GM in our sad club history.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by kilgore

[canuck73_3]

7 hours ago, Dazzle said:

I'm not 'writing off the group' though. The hypocrisy is really with the fanbase. Despite the criticisms that the defense has never been "good enough", and the fact that Poolman "sucks" and all that, JR has now come around to say that the defense is in fact good enough, and that Poolman is a very good one. Of course, this could be a PR message, rather than a factual one, but this begs the question about what the new group has decided. No movement at the TDL, and no movement at the draft. Not only are we keeping the status quo (which was deemed not good enough), we are going to sign Miller long term, which essentially repeats the same "criticisms" that Benning faced.

I'm sure Miller will be good, but it's hypocritical that people say they don't want players signed beyond 35+ long term, yet we are locking players up and not having any space to do anything else.

At the end of the day it is far too soon to expect the same criticism Benning received after 8 years of not being able to put a full package team together. 
 

Expecting to get back on track overnight is far too unfair to the new group. Benning earned his criticisms, it’s only fair the new group gets a bit more than 8 months to earn the same criticisms. 

[Pure961089]

On 8/18/2022 at 7:05 PM, DSVII said:

The fanbase is more or less patient. The ones crying the loudest are the Benning supporters who are blaming JR for not quickly taking apart the roster they were cheering for 8 months ago.

 

 

They want it both ways as long as they get to complain.  If management makes a bad trade they complain and rightfully so.  But they also complain JR hasn't dismantled the team yet.  This team was getting better last year, especially as the season went on.  Now that they've shown what they can do why not see what this group can do in a full season?  It's like they're not happy unless they're misserable.  

[King Loui]

Benning's first few moves consisted of signing Luca Sbisa to a big contract, Trading 2nds for Vey and Baertschi, trading Forsling for Clendenning, a 3rd for Andrei Pedan, drafting Jake Virtanen 6th overall and then topped it all off by signing Loui Eriksson lol.  

[Gurn]

11 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

They want it both ways as long as they get to complain.

People complaining, that people complain too much, have now got me complaining, about them.

Cut it out. lol.

[Pure961089]

44 minutes ago, gurn said:

People complaining, that people complain too much, have now got me complaining, about them.

Cut it out. lol.

I go on to explain in my full edited post.  It's not a complaint but an oservation.  A lot of Canucks fans want it both ways.  

[iceman64]

On 7/29/2022 at 3:45 AM, Dazzle said:

We have heard many arguments that Benning sucked as a GM. Many articles have fleshed this angle out, so we don't need to drill on this before.

 

The hypocrisy comes in when you have articles like this:

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2022/03/07/canucks-backing-themselves-corners-roster-movement-fixing-one-biggest-issues-benning-era/

The Canucks are no longer backing themselves into any corners on roster movement, fixing one of the biggest issues of the Benning Era

What? This article from Mar 2022 ended up being very wrong; we would be even more cornered than we were with cap space, given the latest free agent signings. The article was partially right though. No one would know what JR/Allvin would do. I don't know if anyone expected the Canucks to do nothing in the TDL.

 

Despite the long-winded criticisms about the roster being not good enough, JR has just recently said in his interview that the defense was good enough.

 

That makes perfect sense why he did nothing. I guess all along we have been sold a lie that Benning was this horribly incompetent managemenr. We are now in a much better state under JR/Allvin now, right? Much of this sentiment has been echoed or perpetuated by the media now.

 

The roster which was said to be poorly constructed is almost the exact same one as what JR/Allvin has now. Our team played so poorly last season under Green, but dramatically resurged under Boudreau. Is the name of the GM that much of an influence in our drastic shift of opinions? Maybe it was a coaching issue from the very beginning which Benning never considered.

 

People who say it's a night and day difference under JR are just lying to themselves. The roster has basically remained the same. We have not collected additional draft picks. AND we are potentially talking about tying ourselves up with a long term contract because we have always loved our players too much.

 

What will it take for people to realize that this is just a re-tooled version of Benning's team? How can we really say that JR 'put his stamp' on this team despite making no roster changes?

 

In order for us to make further changes, we'll have to sell low with our players from now on to free cap space. JR has essentially handcuffed himself by not unloading JT Miller and addressing the so-called holes of this roster. Maybe this is an ownership issue, NOT the personnel one. We are unfortunately backed into a corner, contrary to the overly optimistic article above.

 

Maybe the media has no freaking clue what they're talking about and are just pushing narratives.

 

How I wish our newer guys were available around the LE Rous and Sutter time when the kids needed mentoring the most. 

 Being that's over and we have the guys that would have done wonders but still, we're a lot of the same team that went for 2 winning streaks without any upgrades at all. Just Bruce. 

 Even the roster upgraded to what it is now, is a huge step forward. 

 And capped off by Kuzmenko, that was a steal that isn't quite up there with JT Miller but with that skill set, I'm excited. 

 Our biggest challenge like that of any other elite team is to get everyone to buy into a complete 200 ft game and if anyone is capable of that it's Bruce but I think now if that happens with our new guys included, we don't have to rely on D so much. 

 Some fail to see that it looked like Green's playbook finally out of our boys heads and instead of waiting too long for long stretch pa passes instead of shorter, quick high percentage passes and using that for quick break outs instead was something that killed us night after night. 

 Yeah it took awhile to get away from that and I hope BB keeps it simple so new guys/call ups can some in a lot more seamlessly in a pinch. 

 Now depth is our only issue but with trades that could set us up even more. 

 Man it's nice to be less cautiously optimistic for a change and be a bit excited! 

 And with Miller, it's crazy to think it was worth doing something to move up in a shallow draft. I would have been pissed, and it's not like we don't have right up to next seasons trade deadline to do something and still time before seasons start. 

 And again for the final F'n time, ppl really need to stop thinking they have a clue about GM'g and all that goes on behind the scenes they know nothing about. That just makes them look stupid, crazy stupid. 

It would be like taking the local media hacks and online crap written by CanucksArmy etc seriously. 

 I'll still point and laugh at them all saying JT wasn't worth it 

 Now they look as stupid as F and go to great lengths to jump on the hype wagon about him. 

 One day I might stop laughing about it but I doubt it..

 I digress though, point being, we've almost arrived. The rebuild is over almost, but what gets me the happiest is that every last 2012 player is gone. Even Luo off the books. 

 Took way too long, I grew a new hatred for NTC's. Yeah their not going away as a part of hockey but can be risky at the best of times. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by iceman64

[70seven]

For me, they are living painfully with the mistakes of their predecessors.  Patience is WHY they are different.  Benning rushed the rebuild under whoever’s direction and Linden left because of it.  This group is still a solid team that had a horrible start for many different reasons last year.  PK was the number one issue of why they couldn’t win games… then Petey not coming alive until December.  So what did they do?  They went and got the fastest PKer on the market, and added another you guessed it, PKer C in Lazar… and oh yah they moved heaven and earth to land the most sought after European FA in Kuzmenko who may be a 60 point player as early as this coming season.  
 

What’s the beef here?  We haven’t traded our best forward?!  I know he’s nearly 30, but has anyone seen anything remotely look like drop off?… It looks to me like JT Miller is only gaining momentum.  He’s only played top 6 since joining Van.  Lots of top end years left in him.  The Canucks will regret trading him, I am certain. 

[alt kilgore]

2 hours ago, 70seven said:

For me, they are living painfully with the mistakes of their predecessors.  Patience is WHY they are different.  Benning rushed the rebuild under whoever’s direction and Linden left because of it.  This group is still a solid team that had a horrible start for many different reasons last year.  PK was the number one issue of why they couldn’t win games… then Petey not coming alive until December.  So what did they do?  They went and got the fastest PKer on the market, and added another you guessed it, PKer C in Lazar… and oh yah they moved heaven and earth to land the most sought after European FA in Kuzmenko who may be a 60 point player as early as this coming season.  
 

What’s the beef here?  We haven’t traded our best forward?!  I know he’s nearly 30, but has anyone seen anything remotely look like drop off?… It looks to me like JT Miller is only gaining momentum.  He’s only played top 6 since joining Van.  Lots of top end years left in him.  The Canucks will regret trading him, I am certain. 

 

Good point. 

And on Miller.  Benning gets praise for the Miller trade.  Maybe because it stands out as his only trade that worked out.  But JT wasn't free.  We gave up a first and a third rounder for him.  At a time when we needed those picks badly. Already with a deficit of picks / prospects. Picks that would be  entering the NHL about now.  In isolation, looking in hindsight, it was still a decent exchange.......for a team on the cusp of being a true Cup competitor. But we weren't that.  I love Miller, and I too would prefer he stays.  But I can understand both Miller for trying to get his payday, and for the Canucks if they trade him, doing it to bring in youth and cap space. 

 

But if he is traded, he damn well better get back MORE than a first and a third. If not simply because he has improved his own worth.  Although the age factor balances out that worth somewhat.   With Motte for instance, he came into the league a 4th round draft pick, (by Chicago), and in spite of all of his development here and rise to prominence as a key defensive forward, and a fan favourite, he still only was worth a 4th round pick to another team.   IMO, I want to see us get back more than what we paid for JT. Then Benning can be excused for his bad timing. Otherwise, its just been fun watching Miller play for us for a few seasons, but it did nothing for team development but push the ball down the road.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by kilgore

[KyGuy123]

In reality there are probably only 6/7 top tier GM’s in the league and unfortunately we don’t have one of them. We keep hiring first time rookies who are learning on the fly and should probably keep quiet instead of laying out their plan and failing to deliver. I know JR is here to mentor this time and Benning left a mess with an empty Prospect pool and terrible overpaid Defence, but it still feels like it did before at this point. The trade that fell through with the Islanders and passing on kemmel when he was there for the taking feels like much of the same. Never pass BPA in the draft and Kemmel was ranked higher all year and watching him come second in scoring at the WJC is salt in the wound. Having Miller on the team still is a distraction and the longer you hold onto him the less his value gets, or we end up keeping him and he walks. 
 

Sucks

[Provost]

2 hours ago, KyGuy123 said:

In reality there are probably only 6/7 top tier GM’s in the league and unfortunately we don’t have one of them. We keep hiring first time rookies who are learning on the fly and should probably keep quiet instead of laying out their plan and failing to deliver. I know JR is here to mentor this time and Benning left a mess with an empty Prospect pool and terrible overpaid Defence, but it still feels like it did before at this point. The trade that fell through with the Islanders and passing on kemmel when he was there for the taking feels like much of the same. Never pass BPA in the draft and Kemmel was ranked higher all year and watching him come second in scoring at the WJC is salt in the wound. Having Miller on the team still is a distraction and the longer you hold onto him the less his value gets, or we end up keeping him and he walks. 
 

Sucks

I am more willing to give them time, but they will certainly get a shelter leash than Benning did for me before I start getting worried about them.

 

All your points are fair.  They expressed a solid and well thought out plan, but they haven’t done a whole lot to move towards it yet.  Time will tell (pretty quickly) if they overplayed their hand with the Miller situation.  If he leaves without getting a significant return or gets signed to a massive contract that submarines the club halfway through its term… then those are Benning-Esau’s levels of blunder.

[Alflives]

Benning ... 

[Hairy Kneel]

LE fail, Green big fail, hanging on to the Sedin's playoff hopes too long. 

Rebuild was needed way earlier. 

[IBatch]

On 8/22/2022 at 3:32 PM, kilgore said:

 

Good point. 

And on Miller.  Benning gets praise for the Miller trade.  Maybe because it stands out as his only trade that worked out.  But JT wasn't free.  We gave up a first and a third rounder for him.  At a time when we needed those picks badly. Already with a deficit of picks / prospects. Picks that would be  entering the NHL about now.  In isolation, looking in hindsight, it was still a decent exchange.......for a team on the cusp of being a true Cup competitor. But we weren't that.  I love Miller, and I too would prefer he stays.  But I can understand both Miller for trying to get his payday, and for the Canucks if they trade him, doing it to bring in youth and cap space. 

 

But if he is traded, he damn well better get back MORE than a first and a third. If not simply because he has improved his own worth.  Although the age factor balances out that worth somewhat.   With Motte for instance, he came into the league a 4th round draft pick, (by Chicago), and in spite of all of his development here and rise to prominence as a key defensive forward, and a fan favourite, he still only was worth a 4th round pick to another team.   IMO, I want to see us get back more than what we paid for JT. Then Benning can be excused for his bad timing. Otherwise, its just been fun watching Miller play for us for a few seasons, but it did nothing for team development but push the ball down the road.

 

 

   Miller sure ended up the big winner, maybe us too.   Wonder how TB fans feel about that trade now (sure two cups lol pretty good i'm sure!), think every stop Millers made fans. 

 

If we trade Miller, his value of course is somewhat market related, but a first, a grade A prospect, and a roster player is what we should expect.   That's what the experts keep saying anyways.   The grade A prospect of course is the prize.   That should in theory, be better then what we traded for.   And if you think about it, the grade A prospect likely was drafted a couple years ago (maybe a year after the Miller pick was drafted).   

 

Let's hypothesize that without Miller, that 22nd ish pick we lost in the bubble, was instead another 10-12th pick which seems reasonable.   Because you know we'd slip a couple spots in the draft lol.   That grade A prospect should be about what we could expect from that draft.   Plus we get another late first, plus maybe something else (like Giroux).    

 

To me it's awfully hard to see this as a loss.   Miller - well four years of Miller (assuming he doesn't get traded at the deadline) and he's already put himself in the echelon on the best producers this teams ever had.   Fans will be talking about his season last year for sometime (probably this one too).     And really doubt he will regress this year.   He's playing for a contract.   And Bruce/team is playing for playoffs and even possibly with building the idea in their heads that why them.   Just like Green said during the bubble.   Why not them?  Miller is the leader of this team - Bruce acknowledged that. 

 

I don't think anything is off the table despite the tidbits JR/Allvin have given us.   One thing i do know is Millers price has been paid in full.   Late firsts hit as often as second rounders - those are the stats (20 years 1990-2010).    A Miller trade isn't giving us a young RHD lol - or the moon.   I'm sure there will be half a dozen teams willing to play ball for Miller ... and that the return will be almost certainly better then what was given up.   Was the timing off?   Maybe by one year, but we wouldn't be getting a Miller later either.   How many times have you seen a trade like that work out for any team?   

 

Strike the iron while it's hot and all of that.   If acquiring a Miller type for four years was that easy, every single team in the league wouldn't ever draft a player lol.  

 

Once you add the value of what Millers impact is for these younger players (Podz already gushed about Miller - and even Horvat, look how he pushed the team down the stretch too - and EP for that matter too),  if all we get is playoffs and he walks for free, that's still a pretty decent exchange overall.   Even if it was a 10-12th overall.   And i'm sure every GM in the league would have made that trade in hindsight.    It works for rebuilding teams (veteran leadership), a re-tooling team, and especially for a team trying to get out of the rebuild phase.    No GM wants to do what EDM did for a decade or what Buffalo is still doing    

Edited August 27, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

LE fail, Green big fail, hanging on to the Sedin's playoff hopes too long. 

Rebuild was needed way earlier. 

This is true.  But back in 2012 we still were a top team.   And aside from Schnieder, Gillis going for it cap structure meant everyone on the team down to even Hansen lol, was fully claused up.   Don't know why  some fans still don't get this.    Not saying your wrong because of course your not.  

 

What we should have done is let the Sedins walk and rebuilt around Kesler and used that cap savings wisely.   It was a mess really.   And JB never really had much of a chance and neither would anyone else.    Back then our taxes were decent too.   Like the Alberta teams are now.    The team had zero ability to sell assets for the future, plus had 8... think about that - 8 consecutive years of the worst drafting in club history.   Maybe even in league history too.    And people wonder why 2nds were used to bring in tweeners (also a mistake ... re-tool was a failure).  

 

To me at least - it was like starting a new team under the old rules of expansion with a glut of long in the tooth guys and a few mid level vets in Edler and Tanev.   And Horvat was the new clubs expansion picks   We didn't get a first or second overall or even a third lol.    ATL and CLB took a decade to get their ship sorted.    And well that actually was a reasonable time table for us as well.    Said so as much at the time - best case and this is best case, parts of the JB core and some of what's coming up behind (10-14 year olds now) maybe puts us back on top again.   32 teams.   It's depressing to be pragmatic about.   53.02% taxes.     Bobrovsky takes home almost 900k more then McDavid lol... and those guys pay what we used too, as in 47.5ish %....
 

The correct targets are expansion and taxes.   Two things that make it awfully difficult for Canadian and most teams.   Can see why (and i'm not a huge fan of this) that they are trying to be team Sweden.   Team US  ... don't be shocked to see Miller, QHs, Demko etc playing down South their next deals.    

 

That's my b!tch for the day lol.   Vote for a different party then the NDP i suppose if you want a roll back in taxes.   Which rarely happens.    And well with our without the Sedins it was still going to take time.   At least we had them their entire careers ... that's extremely rare these days and first ballot HHOFers because of what they did on the ice, and what type of people they are - first class.  

 

Present day.   This is a team that's easy to like.   No it's not perfect, but it does have quite a bit to like about it.   Forward progression now and the next 4 years we have a good shot at making some waves. 

[Provost]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:32 PM, kilgore said:

 

Good point. 

And on Miller.  Benning gets praise for the Miller trade.  Maybe because it stands out as his only trade that worked out.  But JT wasn't free.  We gave up a first and a third rounder for him.  At a time when we needed those picks badly. Already with a deficit of picks / prospects. Picks that would be  entering the NHL about now.  In isolation, looking in hindsight, it was still a decent exchange.......for a team on the cusp of being a true Cup competitor. But we weren't that.  I love Miller, and I too would prefer he stays.  But I can understand both Miller for trying to get his payday, and for the Canucks if they trade him, doing it to bring in youth and cap space. 

 

But if he is traded, he damn well better get back MORE than a first and a third. If not simply because he has improved his own worth.  Although the age factor balances out that worth somewhat.   With Motte for instance, he came into the league a 4th round draft pick, (by Chicago), and in spite of all of his development here and rise to prominence as a key defensive forward, and a fan favourite, he still only was worth a 4th round pick to another team.   IMO, I want to see us get back more than what we paid for JT. Then Benning can be excused for his bad timing. Otherwise, its just been fun watching Miller play for us for a few seasons, but it did nothing for team development but push the ball down the road.

 

 

I had posted way back that we can't fully judge the Miller trade until he is re-signed, walks, or is traded for something back.

It was absolutely the right scouting to recognize some untapped potential in Miller.  He was a guy working his way down the lineups in New York and Tampa... not a guy who was working his way up.  He was often a 3rd liner on those teams and had baggage about his attitude and compete level.  He came here and has become a legitimated top line player who is known for his compete and drive (though the attitude issues seems to still be there when things on the ice aren't going well).

Definite kudos to Benning and the pro scouting folks for that.

On the other side, if we don't have any real success during his entire time under club control that we traded for... how can that be a win since it didn't get us anywhere nearer the goal of winning a Stanley Cup and currently has a decent chance of moving us farther away from that goal?  It was a clear misjudgement about how ready the team was to win.  Giving up 1st round picks for a team that was scuffling along the bottom of the standings and years away from contending isn't an ideal playbook.  There is a reason that rebuilding teams try to add those sorts of assets and not trade them away.

If you subtract Miller from our 2019-2020 roster we end up somewhere worse in the standings and probably use that pick to draft one of the exact calibre of young players (or better) than we are "hoping" to get as a return for him now.  (Schneider, Holtz, Lafreniere, Raymond, Stutzle; Lundell, Drysdale, Mercer, Byfield, etc).  As of right now, if any of those players plus a 3rd round pick was offered for Miller... I take that and run.  That would really represent the Miller trade being pretty much a wash since those are the guys who would have been available to us with that pick.

To me the two biggest wins for Benning were drafting Petterson (not off the board but also not the consensus pick of guys remaining) and trading for Miller.  If we end up with a better asset for Miller or him signed to less cap hit than we could replace his roster spot in free agency... that will solidify it as a win in the end.  If he walks, gets signed for full market value, or gets traded for an underwhelming return then it is a loss in my books, no matter how his play on the ice turned out.  I gauge moves by whether they move us closer to a Cup or not.  After next season, if we don't have Miller or NHL ready assets back... to me we are farther away from a Cup than if we had have kept the picks and have a young, cheap, club controlled player like Braden Schneider or  on the roster.

Of course it is hard to play "what if" as there are so many moving variables outside the trade itself, it is entirely possible we kept that pick and whiffed on the selection.  There are lots of guys drafted in the top 20 that year who are now not living up to their draft potential.  He could have also signed another bad long term contract with the cap money he would have saved by not having Miller on the books.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Provost