Master Mind Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Kenny Powers said: Which players would you draft with those two picks? Let me know, and we can track when they start contributing on ELC’s at the NHL level, and compare them to Hronek’s impact. Butterfly effect. Any players I would have picked could develop differently in another team's system vs ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 47 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Also remember that we traded Horvat on his career year in order to get the assets to trade for Hronek. If Horvat’s wasn’t having such a great year offensively then we probably can’t get the Hronek deal done. So, in effect we traded high on Horvat to get Hronek on a high. Difference is we switched a 2C which we already have in Miller into a 3RD who is 2 1/2 years younger than Horvat plus his new contract will be around $1.5 million less per year. On top of that we also obtained hopefully our 3C of the future as well as a productive winger that we can either re-sign or flip next year in order to get one of the draft picks back. If you look at the trade from that point of view then it makes a lot more sense and looks like a home run trade. An A+. I entirely disagree that this trade was an A+. Selling high on Horvat was the right move, 100%. We should have done that far more times in the last year instead of resigning players. But franchise is not in the state currently to be able to buy high just because the sold high. I don't follow that logic in the slightest. This team needs a good handful clear cut wins if they want to compete. This trade was not a win. If anything it was a wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, HKSR said: We'll have to wait and see. I think we did the right thing. Hronek is right at the age range we want in a top 4 RHD. Gives us another solid PMD that the D core can be built around. It's not like we will sit on our hands now and not move a single large contract out the door in the off season. JR/PA have already alluded to it in interviews. The price for Hronek is right where it should be for a 40 to 50 point RHD that is only 25 years old. They don't grow on trees. We can be patient all we want, but where is that young top 4 RHD gonna come from? The draft? We expect an 18 year old to walk in and do what Hronek is doing? Maybe New York would've traded Schneider straight up for the 1st? Maybe LA would've offloaded one of their young RHD for the 1st only? Or maybe we could've made these trades with said teams for the 2nd and a prospect we're okay to move? Re: moving out large contracts, we've been hearing that since they got here. Now we're hearing more from them that they're considering a buyout, which would be a disaster. Fans talk about the cap going up and it not mattering, but to that I say: dead cap on our books makes up less competitive when the cap does go up because other teams without dead cap will have a considerable advantage over us with their extra flexibility. Hronek has lots of potential, but he also comes with a ton of risk: injuries, breakout season that may be a one-off, etc. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said: I entirely disagree that this trade was an A+. Selling high on Horvat was the right move, 100%. We should have done that far more times in the last year instead of resigning players. But franchise is not in the state currently to be able to buy high just because the sold high. I don't follow that logic in the slightest. This team needs a good handful clear cut wins if they want to compete. This trade was not a win. If anything it was a wash. Horvat and a 2nd for Hronek, Raty, Beauvillier and a 4th is a home run, an A+ trade. You can disagree that we should have traded Horvat and kept the futures for a rebuild, but that is not what we are doing. We are in a full retool and needed a top 4 RHD to match Hughes on the other side. From that perspective, it was an A+ trade as we got exactly what we needed in order to move forward with the retool... 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 26 minutes ago, Jester13 said: We got Krav for a song because New York had to move him quickly after the moves they made. This is the benefit of having patience: you can take advantage of other teams when the time is right. And this is one of the main criticisms with the Hronek trade: we overpaid and now have no flexibility to make the Krav-types in the future. We lacked patience. fair point. We.’ll likely get suboptimal returns as we clear cap space. I can live with that for the players we’ll likely trade (Myers, Boeser, etc) 1 hour ago, ronthecivil said: It's not a terrible trade, it's the timing and the cap. Reloading is the stated goal of the franchise. Then again, getting out of salary cap prison was another. They reloaded ya. Sure, they still have their first, for now. The greatest need wasn't a right shot dman. It was depth and cap space. I see what you’re saying, but you can’t always control timing of an available trade. We’ll see how PA dances out of the cap situation - I agree it’s not ideal. The greatest need was a Top 4 RHD. That’s directly from PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 11 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Butterfly effect. Any players I would have picked could develop differently in another team's system vs ours. What you are really trying to say is that you have no idea who would be available at those picks, and the magic beans that you pick may turn out to be busts so you don't want to have it on the record... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Horvat and a 2nd for Hronek, Raty, Beauvillier and a 4th is a home run, an A+ trade. You can disagree that we should have traded Horvat and kept the futures for a rebuild, but that is not what we are doing. We are in a full retool and needed a top 4 RHD to match Hughes on the other side. From that perspective, it was an A+ trade as we got exactly what we needed in order to move forward with the retool... We fundamentally disagree. I don't think that trade is anywhere close to a homerun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 Just now, MeanSeanBean said: We fundamentally disagree. I don't think that trade is anywhere close to a homerun. No worries. Craig Button says it's an A+ and gave his reasons why which made total sense, so I'll agree to disagree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnAntoski Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Jester13 said: As a result of bringing him in, we're now lacking cap space, contract space, and some top assets that could've been used to take advantage of other teams that will inevitably be in the same situation as NY. I understand that Hronek is a second pair RHD, but a little patience can go a long way. Plus, I've been listening/watching a lot of Wings podcasts about the Hronek trade, and not a single one has said they're unhappy with the trade. They've all said the same thing: "When you get an overpaid offer like that, you take it." Detroit fans are not as high on Hronek as our management team is. Time will tell. Heard the samething, from their fanbased: they were surprised to get a 1st and 2nd for a 2nd pairing D. Yzerman sold high and Allvin got desperate Edited March 8, 2023 by ShawnAntoski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: What you are really trying to say is that you have no idea who would be available at those picks, and the magic beans that you pick may turn out to be busts so you don't want to have it on the record... Nope, not what I'm saying at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 10 minutes ago, Jester13 said: Maybe New York would've traded Schneider straight up for the 1st? Maybe LA would've offloaded one of their young RHD for the 1st only? Or maybe we could've made these trades with said teams for the 2nd and a prospect we're okay to move? Re: moving out large contracts, we've been hearing that since they got here. Now we're hearing more from them that they're considering a buyout, which would be a disaster. Fans talk about the cap going up and it not mattering, but to that I say: dead cap on our books makes up less competitive when the cap does go up because other teams without dead cap will have a considerable advantage over us with their extra flexibility. Hronek has lots of potential, but he also comes with a ton of risk: injuries, breakout season that may be a one-off, etc. We'll see. How is it that Hronek is a ton of risk, but Schneider or one of LA's young RHD not? I presume you're talking guys like Grans as I don't see a Durzi or Clarke being traded. I think they are talking buyout of a guy like Pearson. It's not gonna be OEL like some people think around here. Nor will it be Garland. The buyouts for those guys don't make sense. Buying out Pearson saves us cap this coming season, and is a minimal impact the following season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 Just so people are aware. Since Hronek has entered the league, he has been on pace for nearly 40 points every single season. This season he has taken an extra step. So at a minimum, we can expect that Hronek is a 40 point RHD, with a booming shot, and plays with an edge. On pace for... 2018-19 - 41 points 2019-20 - 39 points 2020-21 - 38 points 2021-22 - 40 points 2022-23 - 52 points This is as consistent as it gets folks. Give it a rest that this guy is some super high risk RHD. He's 25 years old, yet to hit his prime. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 16 minutes ago, Master Mind said: Butterfly effect. Any players I would have picked could develop differently in another team's system vs ours. sure, but it’s probably the best estimate. Who would you take? Just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: No worries. Craig Button says it's an A+ and gave his reasons why which made total sense, so I'll agree to disagree... Yup, I saw that. I also saw he was the only person who talks about professional hockey for a living that thought that while the other 96% of the industry thought it was a weird move. So we can definitely agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 9 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: What you are really trying to say is that you have no idea who would be available at those picks, and the magic beans that you pick may turn out to be busts so you don't want to have it on the record... This is typically where the argument falls apart on CDC. Posters want to complain about a transaction, but can’t (or won’t) provide a constructive alternative. Easier to heckle management from the cheap seats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said: sure, but it’s probably the best estimate. Who would you take? Just for fun. Remind me on draft day if you want to know. 1 minute ago, Kenny Powers said: This is typically where the argument falls apart on CDC. Posters want to complain about a transaction, but can’t (or won’t) provide a constructive alternative. Easier to heckle management from the cheap seats. The alternative is to use those picks to draft and develop prospects. How is that not an alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 13 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said: We fundamentally disagree. I don't think that trade is anywhere close to a homerun. Guessing you wanted to keep Horvat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 minute ago, MeanSeanBean said: Yup, I saw that. I also saw he was the only person who talks about professional hockey for a living that thought that while the other 96% of the industry thought it was a weird move. So we can definitely agree to disagree. Craig Button is a former GM, a former head scout and has been around hockey and evaluating talent for decades. You are referring to guys on the radio and tv who are members of the media. If you actually want to take the media's side on this deal over a hockey expert like Button, then I could see why you don't like the trade. If you can find someone outside of the media that has similar credentials as Button who disagrees with the trade, then you are more than welcome to post those articles... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 Just now, Master Mind said: Remind me on draft day if you want to know. The alternative is to use those picks to draft and develop prospects. How is that not an alternative? Because they don’t fit out timeline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Lasso Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: Craig Button is a former GM, a former head scout and has been around hockey and evaluating talent for decades. You are referring to guys on the radio and tv who are members of the media. If you actually want to take the media's side on this deal over a hockey expert like Button, then I could see why you don't like the trade. If you can find someone outside of the media that has similar credentials as Button who disagrees with the trade, then you are more than welcome to post those articles... The media gets paid per click, not for being accurate. If it bleeds it leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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