[Trade] Red Wings trade Filip Hronek, 2023 4th-round pick to Canucks for conditional 2023 1st-round pick (NYI), 2023 2nd-round pick

[Elias Pettersson]

5 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Yup, I also said and I quote "he thinks". 2 buddies chatting hockey and you start pulling absolutes into the conversation. That's why it was a stupid comment that you're now doubling down on.

 

Well, it's good to know that he only thinks it.  If his thoughts are wrong, then there is still hope for us...

[The Lock]

Just now, ShawnAntoski said:

He did the same with Mantha and the cap space alone, gives him a lot of options.   

Still won't know until later on if either Mantha or Hronek were "sold high". Really depends on how the rest of their careers go.

 

Even if it turns out to not be selling high though, it doesn't mean Yzerman wasn't smart in making those trades. We'll find out over time the results really. Maybe Allvin looks good in the end. Maybe both GMs look good in the end. Maybe both GMs regret everything about this trade later on. Who really knows at this point? lol

[Ted Lasso]

6 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

There is never a timeline where prospects and good young players don't fit.

 

We will always need them.

Yes, but the need for a RHD was immediate. They’ve been looking for over a year. We still have 6 picks including a lottery 1st. All those picks will replenish our prospect pool.
 

Seems like you want to rebuild and stockpile picks. That’s simply not the teams direction. 

[MeanSeanBean]

8 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Still won't know until later on if either Mantha or Hronek were "sold high". Really depends on how the rest of their careers go.

 

Even if it turns out to not be selling high though, it doesn't mean Yzerman wasn't smart in making those trades. We'll find out over time the results really. Maybe Allvin looks good in the end. Maybe both GMs look good in the end. Maybe both GMs regret everything about this trade later on. Who really knows at this point? lol

Couldn't you make that argument for litterally any player always though? Selling high, to me, means you sold a player above their perceived value. If this first we traded becomes lotto pick next year, this trade completely changes.  If the Islanders win the cup, it changes for the better. It's always in flux.

Edited March 8, 2023 by MeanSeanBean

[Ted Lasso]

1 minute ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Couldn't you make that argument for litterally any player always though? Selling high, to me, means you sold a player above their perceived value. If this first we traded becomes lotto pick next year, this trade completely changes again. 

Yep, and this trade will be assessed and graded multiple times in the future. For now, the best player in the trade is coming to the Canucks.
 

[Jester13]

41 minutes ago, HKSR said:

How is it that Hronek is a ton of risk, but Schneider or one of LA's young RHD not? I presume you're talking guys like Grans as I don't see a Durzi or Clarke being traded. 

 

I think they are talking buyout of a guy like Pearson.  It's not gonna be OEL like some people think around here.  Nor will it be Garland.  The buyouts for those guys don't make sense.  Buying out Pearson saves us cap this coming season, and is a minimal impact the following season. 

I didn't say picks or guys young rhd are not risks as well, but the difference is that Hronek is going on 26yo whereas Schneider is going on 22, Grans going on 21. Hronek is also injured at the moment, was apparently not playing well at all recently when we traded for him, will be due a hefty raise (ostensibly), and is having a career year. Maybe the hit he took will have an effect on him, maybe his shoulder will be reoccurring, maybe his breakout year is a one-off - these are all unknown at the moment. Maybe none of these things happen and he's amazing for us and everything is honky dory, but the point still stands: trading for Hronek now means we're once again in cap trouble, which means we have much less flexibility moving forward, less cost-controlled years, etc. Plus we overpaid for him. 

 

Some will use Button or Corrado as examples who like the trade, but compare those two guys with everyone else who was/is dumbfounded with the timing of the trade for where we're at as a team. 

We'll see about the buyout on the horizon. Here's hoping they figure it out in an efficient/effective way, and not in a way that continues to eff us over. 

[The Lock]

13 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Couldn't you make that argument for litterally any player always though? Selling high, to me, means you sold a player above their perceived value. If this first we traded becomes lotto pick next year, this trade completely changes.  If the Islanders win the cup, it changes for the better. It's always in flux.

Yes. You could. The problem is some people want to present their opinions as fact ignoring all that.

 

I differ from you though in the way I perceive selling high. In my opinion, if Hronek continues an upward trend over the next couple of years while in his current contract, he will have higher value. He might even gain value with a larger contract after. We don't know. So I really tend to associate careers and how well players are performing along with their contracts at part of it. Perceived value is still guessing in the end and almost impossible to determine this in my opinion. And a lot of people will use the term during a trade, which, to me, seems silly honestly. lol

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying people can't have opinions or anything. It's more about the way things are presented at the end of the day.

 

(Editted because I realised my 1st sentence read weird)

Edited March 8, 2023 by The Lock

[MeanSeanBean]

7 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Yep, and this trade will be assessed and graded multiple times in the future. For now, the best player in the trade is coming to the Canucks.
 

Sure, yes, fair, in a vacuum. But I counter point that this trade only happens because Horvat (that exact argument was used with me half hour ago). Horvat was the best player.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Sure, yes, fair, in a vacuum. But I counter point that this trade only happens because Horvat (that exact argument was used with me half hour ago). Horvat was the best player.

Isles are something like 10-3 since acquiring Horvat.  With a number of the teams around them selling off assets up to the trade deadline, they might just sneak into the playoffs.  Both teams can "win" in a trade (Canucks & Isles).

Edited March 8, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Ted Lasso]

5 minutes ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Sure, yes, fair, in a vacuum. But I counter point that this trade only happens because Horvat (that exact argument was used with me half hour ago). Horvat was the best player.

Agree, he was the best player in that trade.
 

But he priced himself out, and we avoided another retirement contract liability, while stockpiling assets.

 

IMHO, the aggregate trade returns have been an absolute win, and seem to balance recouping assets (better than previous mgmt), with helping the team now.

 

The cap looks ugly, but let’s see what tricks JRPA have up their sleeves. They have good relationships with other GMs that could translate to solid deals in the off-season.

[MeanSeanBean]

4 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Agree, he was the best player in that trade.
 

But he priced himself out, and we avoided another retirement contract liability, while stockpiling assets.

 

IMHO, the aggregate trade returns have been an absolute win, and seem to balance recouping assets (better than previous mgmt), with helping the team now.

 

The cap looks ugly, but let’s see what tricks JRPA have up their sleeves. They have good relationships with other GMs that could translate to solid deals in the off-season.

You hit on one of my biggest gripes of the trade. The management determined from day one that we needed to accumulate cap space. That was their biggest goal when they were expressing how to rebuild this franchise to the point we could be a contender.

 

To this point they have absolutely failed in that. Trading Horvat was a great idea, but they took NewBeau back. He's been good, don't get me wrong. But he had minimal to no value and we took back yet another winger, and neutralized the majority of the cap we got back for trading Bo. But to then flip an asset that would be cost controlled for the next half decade for another 4 million and change, on a player who will very shortly be looking down the barrel of what will be his NHL payday just seems wild to me.

 

I've overall been a fan of most of this new managements moves, but their handling of the cap space has been absolutely unforgivable to me. In no world should a team this bad have the most cap committed next year. An OEL buyout or trading Boeser/Garland/Miller at a loss seems like a foregone conclusion to me now.

[Ted Lasso]

1 minute ago, MeanSeanBean said:

You hit on one of my biggest gripes of the trade. The management determined from day one that we needed to accumulate cap space. That was their biggest goal when they were expressing how to rebuild this franchise to the point we could be a contender.

 

To this point they have absolutely failed in that. Trading Horvat was a great idea, but they took NewBeau back. He's been good, don't get me wrong. But he had minimal to no value and we took back yet another winger, and neutralized the majority of the cap we got back for trading Bo. But to then flip an asset that would be cost controlled for the next half decade for another 4 million and change, on a player who will very shortly be looking down the barrel of what will be his NHL payday just seems wild to me.

 

I've overall been a fan of most of this new managements moves, but their handling of the cap space has been absolutely unforgivable to me. In no world should a team this bad have the most cap committed next year. An OEL buyout or trading Boeser/Garland/Miller at a loss seems like a foregone conclusion to me now.

Yeah, I hear you about handling of cap space. I’m willing to accept a lot of that was driven by market conditions (cap was originally estimated to go up $4M, now $1M, etc.).  I’ll give them the off-season to show what they can do.

 

Lots of teams have cap space opening up next season. As an extreme example, the Ducks have only 2 defensemen signed for $8M. It’s also a bleak UFA class, so we might be able to get decent value for 2-3 of our bigger contracts. 

[Ted Lasso]

Here are the UFA options for RHD. Myers at $6M cap (and $1M salary) for one year, looks like a top 5 option 

 

[Ted Lasso]

That UFA list is also good context for the Hronek trade

[DeNiro]

3 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Here are the UFA options for RHD. Myers at $6M cap (and $1M salary) for one year, looks like a top 5 option 

 

I would add Ristolainen to that list as I think Philly is gonna blow it up.

 

But you’re right not exactly an amazing list and probably a third of those guys don’t even make it to free agency.

[Ted Lasso]

 Dumba, Severson, Stetcher and Clifton are the best options under 30 yrs old

 

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, Kenny Powers said:

 Dumba, Severson, Stetcher and Clifton are the best options under 30 yrs old

 

Myers with even a mil retention should be easy to move in theory.

[Ted Lasso]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

I would add Ristolainen to that list as I think Philly is gonna blow it up.

 

But you’re right not exactly an amazing list and probably a third of those guys don’t even make it to free agency.

Alvin’s confidence in shedding cap s making more sense, lol. Wouldn’t be surprised if he had several talks about Myers that ended with “we’ll be very interested next year”

[Ted Lasso]

Just now, DeNiro said:

Myers with even a mil retention should be easy to move in theory.

Agreed

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, MeanSeanBean said:

Sure, yes, fair, in a vacuum. But I counter point that this trade only happens because Horvat (that exact argument was used with me half hour ago). Horvat was the best player.

Horvat's career year is the best player in the trade.  We don't know if he can sustain that or if he will revert back to a 50-60 point player.  If Horvat is a 60-point centre moving forward and Hronek stays at the 45-50 point pace as a 3RD then Hronek is actually the best player in the deal.

 

But even if you make the argument that Horvat is the best player in the trade and we agree on that, we still were able to keep a 2C and move out another 2C for our biggest need, which was a 3RD and also acquire a top prospect and a useful winger who can contribute or be flipped for a pick.

 

The trade allowed us to balance the roster while slightly decreasing the cost overall.  We still have cap issues, but this trade wasn't about clearing cap.  It was about improving the weakest part of our team.  Future moves by management will dictate if they are able to open up the cap space needed to acquire more players to fill the other holes.