Who here is actually happy with the Hronek trade?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Gawdzukes said:

The whole notion that people think an 18OA is useless because it might not turn out or if it does it might be in a year, or two, or three, is absolutely ludicrous imo. This is hockey that's where players come from like it or not. It's like people are like I want a Cup, but only if I get it right now. What?  Unfortunately hockey and most sports are an ongoing process that sometimes requires patience and sometimes it takes longer than you think. Having picks, the higher the better is a good thing believe it or not. I don't know any team that couldn't use a stud player 3 years from now.

You do realize the vast majority of players on Cup winning teams aren’t their own draft picks, right? Cup winning teams draft most of their core (like we’ve done) trade or sign a UFA or two to complet the core (we traded for Miller and Hronek) and then fill out their supporting cast from UFAs and trades. 
Tampa’s D for their two recent Cup wins were all acquired by trade of UFA signing except for Hedman. The Avs only drafted a few of their players for their cup winner. 
Trading Bo for a first and then turning that first into a 25 year old elite RSD was a brilliant move by Allvin. That’s how Cup winners are built. 

[hammertime]

4 hours ago, chon derry said:

fun fact hronek was the nux 8th best point producer. OA. 

Hronek had 1 assist

[chon derry]

1 minute ago, hammertime said:

Hronek had 1 assist

39 pts in 64 games. 

[chon derry]

3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Hronek had 1 assist

Points record aren’t tallied separately from team to team , there  a personal record of your accomplishments 

[Baggins]

37 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Yes exactly true. People like winning. I guess what I'm saying is I think there are more ways to get the job done than the current vision of some folks. It's actually kind of funny for me as I'm typing these posts because really I don't mind the trade. In my opinion we are lacking 3 RD's. The ones we have are all complete rubbish so in that vein we needed to do something. Getting experienced, qualified guarantees at that position is the hardest thing so at least we got one right?

 

Is there a way the team could have kept the pick and been further ahead in 3 years. I think that's absolutely possible. The goal should be building the best team possible. It's a shame we burnt through so many assets that's what we had to give up, and we still need two more Rd's. In this panic to make sure Petey and Quinn are happy and satisfied shouldn't we just be burning through all of our other assets as well then, like our 11OA, our first next year, Lekkerimaki, D Petey, and Silovs, because they're all useless to us now and could turn out to be nothing?

 

I have to chuckle as I have to keep reminding myself Petey is just 24. With all the talk around here it's kind of feels like the Ray Bourque situation where he deserves a Cup before he retires or something so we're desperately trying to get him one. The difference was Bourque was 40 ... I'm sure he can wait a couple years. 

When you have high end talent you use all avenues to improve the team around. Drafting, trades, and UFA. The faster you build around rare talent the bigger window you will have. That doesn't mean trade away ALL your picks. You always need to score hits in the draft. Always. But you can't sit back and depend entirely on the draft.

 

Petey will be 25 this fall. If we drafted a RHD with that 17th overall next  month how old will Petey be when he makes the NHL and actually becomes effective? Say two years to make the team and 3 playing before becoming what he needs to be and Petey is 30. 

 

Bourque played 180 playoff games with the Bruins. Including the eastern finals losses and a pair of cup losses. He asked for a trade when his career was coming to an end and Bruins had decided to rebuild. The Bruins missed the playoffs twice during his time in Boston. He didn't sit there his career waiting and hoping to just make the playoffs.

[Baggins]

52 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

The whole notion that people think an 18OA is useless because it might not turn out or if it does it might be in a year, or two, or three, is absolutely ludicrous imo. This is hockey that's where players come from like it or not. It's like people are like I want a Cup, but only if I get it right now. What?  Unfortunately hockey and most sports are an ongoing process that sometimes requires patience and sometimes it takes longer than you think. Having picks, the higher the better is a good thing believe it or not. I don't know any team that couldn't use a stud player 3 years from now.

Who said it's useless? Nobody.

Can you guarantee it will turn out? No you can't.

How say how quickly will he actually be effective if he turns out? No you can't.

 

Picks are simply assets. You can use them, cross your fingers and wait. Or you can trade them for what you need now. Just as prospects are assets. You can cross your fingers and wait, or trade them for what you need now. Every team needs prospects and picks whether rebuilding, building, or contending. That doesn't mean you never ever trade them.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Baggins

[hammertime]

32 minutes ago, chon derry said:

Points record aren’t tallied separately from team to team , there  a personal record of your accomplishments 

Hmmm I'll wait for a larger sample size. 

 

 

[Gawdzukes]

24 minutes ago, Baggins said:

When you have high end talent you use all avenues to improve the team around. Drafting, trades, and UFA. The faster you build around rare talent the bigger window you will have. That doesn't mean trade away ALL your picks. You always need to score hits in the draft. Always. But you can't sit back and depend entirely on the draft.

 

Petey will be 25 this fall. If we drafted a RHD with that 17th overall next  month how old will Petey be when he makes the NHL and actually becomes effective? Say two years to make the team and 3 playing before becoming what he needs to be and Petey is 30. 

 

Bourque played 180 playoff games with the Bruins. Including the eastern finals losses and a pair of cup losses. He asked for a trade when his career was coming to an end and Bruins had decided to rebuild. The Bruins missed the playoffs twice during his time in Boston. He didn't sit there his career waiting and hoping to just make the playoffs.

So I guess you want to trade the 11th then too? I'd say the 18th pick could easily be playing in two or three years. Petey will be 27, not 30. Whatever I'll just agree you must be right. It makes my head hurt to think we have to make these types of concessions and sacrifice assets based on what a 24 year old player may or may not think about how you're building the team. Sounds like a straight up losing organization to me if your main focus isn't building the best team but rather pacifying egos.

 

As far as Bourque goes it was more just trying to point out I've never seen such a case where the players are holding the team hostage. I do get that sometimes you move assets and picks and I'm not even saying this was the wrong move in this case. I just don't agree this was the only move and picks should always be traded because the take time and sometimes don't pan out at all.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[dougieL]

1 hour ago, Gawdzukes said:

The whole notion that people think an 18OA is useless because it might not turn out or if it does it might be in a year, or two, or three, is absolutely ludicrous imo. This is hockey that's where players come from like it or not. It's like people are like I want a Cup, but only if I get it right now. What?  Unfortunately hockey and most sports are an ongoing process that sometimes requires patience and sometimes it takes longer than you think. Having picks, the higher the better is a good thing believe it or not. I don't know any team that couldn't use a stud player 3 years from now.

Exactly. This, and "we might as well try to win every game because we won't win the lottery anyway so it doesn't matter where we pick." Pure nonsense.

[chon derry]

3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Hmmm I'll wait for a larger sample size. 

 

 

Horvats points dropped significantly moving to long is. I expect he’ll be consistent. I also think hronek will surprise people and will prove to be a good addition. He has a very hard shot management has said their not worried about his recovery. 

[dougieL]

19 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Who said it's useless? Nobody.

Can you guarantee it will turn out? No you can't.

How say how quickly will he actually be effective if he turns out? No you can't.

 

Picks are simply assets. You can use them, cross your fingers and wait. Or you can trade them for what you need now. Just as prospects are assets. You can cross your fingers and wait, or trade them for what you need now. Every team needs prospects and picks whether rebuilding, building, or contending. That doesn't mean you never ever trade them.

Again, you need to understand that CAP SPACE IS AN ASSET. What part of that don't you understand?

 

Do you actually think if we kept the 17th pick (and the second round pick), we would just leave 4.4m (and whatever Hronek is going to cost after this coming season) in unused cap space? Like...how hard can this possibly be to comprehend?

[Baggins]

3 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

So I guess you want to trade the 11th then too? I'd say the 18th pick could easily be playing in two or three years. Petey will be 27, not 30. Whatever I'll just agree you must be right. It makes my head hurt to think we have to make these types of concessions and sacrifice assets based on what a 24 year old player may or may not think about how you're building the team. Sounds like a straight up losing organization to me if your main focus isn't building the best team but rather pacifying egos.

 

As far as Bourque goes it was more just trying to point out I've never seen such a case where the players are holding the team hostage.

Can you read? I never mentioned trading the 11th. I said use all avenues to improve. Draft, trade, and UFA. I even said you always need to have draft hits. All avenues. We had an extra 1st and an opportunity to acquire a 25 yr old top 4 RHD. That's a great add to Petey, Hughes, Miller, Kuz, and Demko and the right age. When opportunity knocks you answer. 

 

Nobody is holding the team hostage. But players have asked to be traded because they get tired of missing the playoffs or other for reasons. Petey said two years ago he was tired of missing the playoffs. How long do you think he is willing to wait before getting fed up?

[Baggins]

11 minutes ago, dougieL said:

Again, you need to understand that CAP SPACE IS AN ASSET. What part of that don't you understand?

 

Do you actually think if we kept the 17th pick (and the second round pick), we would just leave 4.4m (and whatever Hronek is going to cost after this coming season) in unused cap space? Like...how hard can this possibly be to comprehend?

Cap space is pretty meaningless if you have a crap team. Cap can always be moved and will be. 

[dougieL]

6 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Cap space is pretty meaningless if you have a crap team. Cap can always be moved and will be. 

Huh?

[Iron Fist]

if you look at the entire trade as one Horvat and a second for  top 6 winger, top 4 defensemen, and a top 3 prospect in our system. Then I like the trade

[hammertime]

38 minutes ago, chon derry said:

Horvats points dropped significantly moving to long is. I expect he’ll be consistent. I also think hronek will surprise people and will prove to be a good addition. He has a very hard shot management has said their not worried about his recovery. 

I sure hope so. 

[chon derry]

1 minute ago, hammertime said:

I sure hope so. 

Canucks have done some dumb ass stuff that includes the medical staff. But I find it hard to believe that they would knowingly trade for an injured player that’s beyond heathy recovery. They wouldn’t do that would they ? 

[Gawdzukes]

46 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Can you read? I never mentioned trading the 11th. I said use all avenues to improve. Draft, trade, and UFA. I even said you always need to have draft hits. All avenues. We had an extra 1st and an opportunity to acquire a 25 yr old top 4 RHD. That's a great add to Petey, Hughes, Miller, Kuz, and Demko and the right age. When opportunity knocks you answer. 

 

Nobody is holding the team hostage. But players have asked to be traded because they get tired of missing the playoffs or other for reasons. Petey said two years ago he was tired of missing the playoffs. How long do you think he is willing to wait before getting fed up?

I don't know what Petey is thinking. Someone should probably ask him. He may be a little wet behind the ears but I'm sure he would understand how draft picks work too. All I'm trying to say is you shouldn't be throwing draft picks away like some people here are suggesting they are not valuable because of this, that, and the other. 

 

Think of it this way. Petey is a great player. I'm sure you would also want him to be a Canuck for life as well right? Now is Hronek guaranteed to be a better player than the draft pick? No, nobody knows what's going to happen. There are tonnes of question marks with either decision. Obviously we've been over why draft picks are risky but there is also risk with Hronek's injury history, there is risk with how he fits on the team, there is risk with the cap crunch it's created, there is risk in his next contract, and whether or not we can reach an agreement. In three years Hronek could be on another team while the 18th pick is tearing up the league. Ideally Petey is here for more than 3 years and whether Hronek is leading the charge on D at that point, or some really good young kid on an ELC, I really wouldn't care if it's leading to us winning lots of hockey games, which probably won't come for at least a couple years regardless of whether Hronek is playing next year or not.

 

For the record I don't have a problem with the trade at all, just the people who can only see the situation from one side.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[Gawdzukes]

28 minutes ago, dougieL said:

Huh?

Yeah that's what I said. How on earth is cap space meaningless to any team, let alone a poor one?

[spook007]

3 hours ago, iceman64 said:

I'm not convinced tearing it down is a step forward 

Neither am I, but as far as I can see, its the two options we have. 
Run with horses we've got, while improving the supporting cast (that will likely keep us close to the cap limit),

or tear it down and start all over, while we hope that tje kids we draft will be good enough. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that will be the case...