Reclamation Trade Targets - Dvorak or Johansen

[IBatch]

If we are paying 6-8 million for a 3C our cap situation is in serious trouble.    Remember those who complained about Sutters cap hit constantly?  Well this is worse.  Much worse.   Hasn't scored the way he should in 5 years.    Since then 5 million would be a more appropriate pay-scale.   We'd be eating a lot of cap.   Dvorak for sure is a better target.    As for Brock, he was actually pretty decent under Tochett, hard on the boards, back checking etc.    He's got a way better chance of coming close to earning his current deal than RJ has.   Dvorak for Brock straight across would be fine.   We save some cap, and have plugged our 3C hole temporarily. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by IBatch

[bh90]

10 hours ago, qwijibo said:

You suggested the plus be a fringe prospect.  Do you really think Nashville does the trade to get a fringe prospect? 

I strongly feel it's a possibility. It all depends on what Nashville pro scouting department and their management think of Boeser skill, and fit within their system. 

 

It's no slam dunk trade proposal for any team. But at the end of the day the likelihood of Nashville getting value for Johansen in a trade is the same as the Canucks trading their cap problems away and expecting value.

 

My whole proposal is based on simply swapping cap and giving players fresh starts with Nashville getting the younger player and better goal scorer which they lack... a la Jakub Vrana in St Louis.

[qwijibo]

1 hour ago, bh90 said:

I strongly feel it's a possibility. It all depends on what Nashville pro scouting department and their management think of Boeser skill, and fit within their system. 

 

It's no slam dunk trade proposal for any team. But at the end of the day the likelihood of Nashville getting value for Johansen in a trade is the same as the Canucks trading their cap problems away and expecting value.

 

My whole proposal is based on simply swapping cap and giving players fresh starts with Nashville getting the younger player and better goal scorer which they lack... a la Jakub Vrana in St Louis.

I think the problem is your insistence that they retain.  So they have a cap hit of $8m on Boeser and Vancouver has a cap hit of $6.65 on Johansen.  We’ve weary agreed that Johansen is the more useful player. So them paying more for the less useful player doesn’t seem reasonable to me.  Take the retention out and there’s a chance it happens.  I think retention on him would be a non starter when the return is a player who is already overpaid at $6.65m 

[qwijibo]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

If we are paying 6-8 million for a 3C our cap situation is in serious trouble.    Remember those who complained about Sutters cap hit constantly?  Well this is worse.  Much worse.   Hasn't scored the way he should in 5 years.    Since then 5 million would be a more appropriate pay-scale.   We'd be eating a lot of cap.   Dvorak for sure is a better target.    As for Brock, he was actually pretty decent under Tochett, hard on the boards, back checking etc.    He's got a way better chance of coming close to earning his current deal than RJ has.   Dvorak for Brock straight across would be fine.   We save some cap, and have plugged our 3C hole temporarily. 

Boeser isn’t a fit for Montreal though. 

[Alflives]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

If we are paying 6-8 million for a 3C our cap situation is in serious trouble.    Remember those who complained about Sutters cap hit constantly?  Well this is worse.  Much worse.   Hasn't scored the way he should in 5 years.    Since then 5 million would be a more appropriate pay-scale.   We'd be eating a lot of cap.   Dvorak for sure is a better target.    As for Brock, he was actually pretty decent under Tochett, hard on the boards, back checking etc.    He's got a way better chance of coming close to earning his current deal than RJ has.   Dvorak for Brock straight across would be fine.   We save some cap, and have plugged our 3C hole temporarily. 

Yup. Boeser for Dvorak. Would the Habs have to add? Boeser is the better player but his cap hit is more. 
Habs need a bigger winger for Suzuki too. 

[bh90]

1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

I think the problem is your insistence that they retain.  So they have a cap hit of $8m on Boeser and Vancouver has a cap hit of $6.65 on Johansen.  We’ve weary agreed that Johansen is the more useful player. So them paying more for the less useful player doesn’t seem reasonable to me.  Take the retention out and there’s a chance it happens.  I think retention on him would be a non starter when the return is a player who is already overpaid at $6.65m 

Would you do Boeser for RJ straight up?

[Gurn]

16 minutes ago, bh90 said:

Would you do Boeser for RJ straight up?

Term is the same length.

However R.J's cap hit is $8 mill

Brock is                          $6,650,000

R.J. is 30 and Brock is 26

both play right wing, but R.J. can play center as well.

Brock .78ppg

R.J.    .66 ppg

 

Summary- Brock is younger, cheaper and scores at a higher rate.

 

If management believes R.J could be a decent 3rd line center, then maybe I make the deal. Strenght, for weakness is sensible; but I would not do the trade just to play R.J. as a winger.

[qwijibo]

54 minutes ago, bh90 said:

Would you do Boeser for RJ straight up?

I think it’s more likely Nashville would.  I don’t know that Vancouver has the wiggle room to take the extra cap though.  It’s probably just not a fit. 

[mll]

1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

I think it’s more likely Nashville would.  I don’t know that Vancouver has the wiggle room to take the extra cap though.  It’s probably just not a fit. 

Not sure Nashville would - guess it depends on what's the plan.  Trotz talks of a re-set and says a step back to take 2 steps forward and talks of patience.  If they are trying to build a team to contend down the road, then he seems a more useful player than Boeser to help develop their younger players because of his versatility.  He's also really solid in face-offs (7th in the NHL) and can help their young Cs develop that skill.  

 

Glass and Novak have never played a full season at C1/C2.  He's a safety net in case either can't fill the role over the full season.  He's also reliable defensively and can play in the bottom-6.  He can also play with grinders or skilled players which gives them more options on how to build their lines and who to bring up.  I wonder if there won't be a lot of yo-yoing between Nashville-Milwaukee.  Some of their players are soon going to become waiver eligible.

 

McCarron or Jankowski can play bottom-6 C but they aren't really NHL regulars.  As long as they have the cap space don't really see why they would put in lesser players - not as efficient to help develop their younger players.  So unless they think Boeser is a long term fit don't really see why they would make the swap.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Gurn said:

Term is the same length.

However R.J's cap hit is $8 mill

Brock is                          $6,650,000

R.J. is 30 and Brock is 26

both play right wing, but R.J. can play center as well.

Brock .78ppg

R.J.    .66 ppg

 

Summary- Brock is younger, cheaper and scores at a higher rate.

 

If management believes R.J could be a decent 3rd line center, then maybe I make the deal. Strenght, for weakness is sensible; but I would not do the trade just to play R.J. as a winger.

Joey has been exclusively a C in Nashville.  Has a face-off percentage of 60% and has also taken the most face-offs per game for Nashville last season. 

[flickyoursedin]

Yeah the only way I’d go for either player is if the deal was something around OEL for Johansen or Boeser for Dvorak. Both Johansen and Dvorak are overpayed but if we can send them an overpayed guy back then I don’t mind the acquisition.

[qwijibo]

7 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

Yeah the only way I’d go for either player is if the deal was something around OEL for Johansen or Boeser for Dvorak. Both Johansen and Dvorak are overpayed but if we can send them an overpayed guy back then I don’t mind the acquisition.

So neither deal happens a then. Because there’s zero chance either of the other teams makes those swaps. 

[flickyoursedin]

18 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

So neither deal happens a then. Because there’s zero chance either of the other teams makes those swaps. 

Boeser is at the very least is a 2nd line winger who will get you 20-30 points more than Dvorak will. Dvorak is an overpayed 3rd line center and Boeser is an overpayed 2nd line winger. A trade around those 2 players isn’t bad. Johansen makes 8 mill a year and looks like a 3rd center you just don’t touch that player at all basically unless they get crazy and OEL is in the conversation. Also when have Dvorak and Johansen put up good seasons relative to their contracts I’m not sure we want either of these players anyway.

Edited May 28, 2023 by flickyoursedin

[qwijibo]

20 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

Boeser is at the very least is a 2nd line winger who will get you 20-30 points more than Dvorak will. Dvorak is an overpayed 3rd line center and Boeser is an overpayed 2nd line winger. A trade around those 2 players isn’t bad. Johansen makes 8 mill a year and looks like a 3rd center you just don’t touch that player at all basically unless they get crazy and OEL is in the conversation. Also when have Dvorak and Johansen put up good seasons relative to their contracts I’m not sure we want either of these players anyway.

Dvorak fits Montreals needs. He gives them depth at the centre position.   Boeser doesn’t fill a need for the team and doesn’t fit their style of play. They have a bunch of winger available to them and he can’t keep up with the speed game they play.  Between a useful $4.45m 3C and a $6.65m winger who doesn’t fit their style nor fill a role they can’t fill internally, they’ll keep the 3C 

 

and I’m sorry. There’s no argument you can make to convince me any GM takes OEL and his contract of Johansen and his contract 

Edited May 28, 2023 by qwijibo

[flickyoursedin]

1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

Dvorak fits Montreals needs. He gives them depth at the centre position.   Boeser doesn’t fill a need for the team and doesn’t fit their style of play. They have a bunch of winger available to them and he can’t keep up with the speed game they play.  Between a useful $4.45m 3C and a $6.65m winger who doesn’t fit their style nor fill a role they can’t fill internally, they’ll keep the 3C 

 

and I’m sorry. There’s no argument you can make to convince me any GM takes OEL and his contract of Johansen and his contract 

That’s how little we should want Johansen and his 8 mill a year for 3rd Center production. I know there’s no team that should take OEL I’m saying moving OEL should be the only way we want Johansen. Its not happening.
 

Boeser spent a good portion of the year playing 3rd line and 2nd PP unit and still put up 55 points which would be 2nd on the Canadiens. A lot of people talk pretty negatively on Boeser but he’s an upgrade for the Canadiens and maybe he isn’t their style but they’re bottom 5 in the league again so maybe they just need to acquire talent where they can. 4.5 million is a lot to spend on a 3rd line center but 6.25 for a 1rst line winger (which Boeser would be for them) isn’t bad. For us the 4.5 million 3rd line center isn’t bad because management was dumb and put too much money into the winger position signing Mikheyev. Its moving out big money on what’s a 3rd line winger for us because we’re much deeper in the position for an overpayed 3rd line center.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said:

That’s how little we should want Johansen and his 8 mill a year for 3rd Center production. I know there’s no team that should take OEL I’m saying moving OEL should be the only way we want Johansen. Its not happening.
 

Boeser spent a good portion of the year playing 3rd line and 2nd PP unit and still put up 55 points which would be 2nd on the Canadiens. A lot of people talk pretty negatively on Boeser but he’s an upgrade for the Canadiens and maybe he isn’t their style but they’re bottom 5 in the league again so maybe they just need to acquire talent where they can. 4.5 million is a lot to spend on a 3rd line center but 6.25 for a 1rst line winger (which Boeser would be for them) isn’t bad. For us the 4.5 million 3rd line center isn’t bad because management was dumb and put too much money into the winger position signing Mikheyev. Its moving out big money on what’s a 3rd line winger for us because we’re much deeper in the position for an overpayed 3rd line center.

Yup. Boeser would be the Habs second best player to Suzuki. 

[qwijibo]

1 hour ago, flickyoursedin said:

That’s how little we should want Johansen and his 8 mill a year for 3rd Center production. I know there’s no team that should take OEL I’m saying moving OEL should be the only way we want Johansen. Its not happening.
 

Boeser spent a good portion of the year playing 3rd line and 2nd PP unit and still put up 55 points which would be 2nd on the Canadiens. A lot of people talk pretty negatively on Boeser but he’s an upgrade for the Canadiens and maybe he isn’t their style but they’re bottom 5 in the league again so maybe they just need to acquire talent where they can. 4.5 million is a lot to spend on a 3rd line center but 6.25 for a 1rst line winger (which Boeser would be for them) isn’t bad. For us the 4.5 million 3rd line center isn’t bad because management was dumb and put too much money into the winger position signing Mikheyev. Its moving out big money on what’s a 3rd line winger for us because we’re much deeper in the position for an overpayed 3rd line center.

Montreal was devastated by injuries last session.  Comparing Boeser’s points to anyone in the Habs is meaningless. Suzuki was the only player to play all 82 games.  Also. Vancouver played a wide open style last season. Look how Horvat’s production went off a Cliff once he was in a system that required defensive responsibility.
 

Montreal has Caufield, Anderson, Gallagher, Armia plus several NHL ready prospects on the right wing.  Caufield is their top right wing and Boeser isn’t even close.  Anderson has great chemistry with Dach. All of them are better skaters than Boeser.  So you want them to spend $6.65m on a 2/3 rd king winger?  No.
 

Dvorak is their 3C with Evans being their 4th.  Beyond that they have a few prospects.  Dvorak fills a need for them that Boeser doesn’t 

Edited May 28, 2023 by qwijibo

[Guest]

On 5/26/2023 at 4:58 PM, Tinky-Winky said:

ahahahaha they will laugh at the canucks if they even try to offer that, NONE want OEL and his BS contract, we would have to give alot to get rid of that contract LOL

I mean Nashville literally acquired Ryan McDonaugh just last summer. Those contracts are one million apart. 

[Guest]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:19 PM, qwijibo said:

You suggested the plus be a fringe prospect.  Do you really think Nashville does the trade to get a fringe prospect? 

You're overestimating how much value an 8 million dollar center has.  

 

Ryan Johansen had 12 goals and 28 points. He's 30 years old, making 8 million dollars per year for two more years.  

 

If he was a Canuck, our fans would be thinking that it would take multiple 1st round picks to get rid of his contract. 

[qwijibo]

1 minute ago, VancouverHabitant said:

You're overestimating how much value an 8 million dollar center has.  

 

Ryan Johansen had 12 goals and 28 points. He's 30 years old, making 8 million dollars per year for two more years.  

 

If he was a Canuck, our fans would be thinking that it would take multiple 1st round picks to get rid of his contract. 

No.  Neither is a great option, but if Nashville has the choice of tying up $8m on Johansen  or Boeser ($6.65m + $1.35m retention suggested in the trade) they’ll keep the more useful player in Johansen.  

[Guest]

On the subject of Nashville, they finished their season very strong after trading away Jeannot. They nearly made the playoffs, and with Duchene, Johansen, Forsberg, McDonaugh, and Josi all signed for big numbers, I can see them trying to work around the edges to go for the playoffs.  

 

Central division isn't that strong, it wouldn't take much for them. They will most likely make all their draft picks and then look for cheap opportunities to fill out their roster with some more scoring punch. 

 

I doubt that they would move Ryan Johansen as he is one of the leaders on their team.