HHOF Class of 2023: Mike Vernon, Pierre Turgeon, Caroline Ouellette, Henrik Lundqvist, Tom Barrasso, Pierre Lacroix, Ken Hitchcock

[shiznak]

8 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

top 10 goalies in the 90s is all u need to be in the hall of fame?? he's a good goalie but not really hall of fame worthy. i don't think cujo is hall of fame worthy either. while stanley cups are not the only criteria.. but to be hall of fame worthy i think u need to be at least top 5 consistently for a decent stretch of time and vernon definitely don't fit that bill

I mean he was an All-Star for 4 consecutive years (would have been 6 straight years, if he wasn’t injured in 1990). I’d say that’s pretty consistent.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

For the decade plus of Vernon's prime he probably was a top five goalie in the NHL when you look at the NHL from 1986 to 1997 as a whole.

 

i look at sv% as a whole and comparing him to goalies every year.. he's rarely even in the top 10s in sv% he was clutch at times and gotten a lot of wins during that period but i gotta say it's a by product of being on a good team. 

 

in no particular order and prolly different time periods between 1986-97

i prolly have belfor roy ritcher hasek vanbisesbrouck fuhr moog and prolly a few more others prolly better imo. 

wins and gaa for me doesn't mean as much as sv% for me sv% is more important as it shows how much of the pucks you actually stop and vernon's sv% is rarely in the top 10s

[Kevin Biestra]

2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i look at sv% as a whole and comparing him to goalies every year.. he's rarely even in the top 10s in sv% he was clutch at times and gotten a lot of wins during that period but i gotta say it's a by product of being on a good team. 

 

in no particular order and prolly different time periods between 1986-97

i prolly have belfor roy ritcher hasek vanbisesbrouck fuhr moog and prolly a few more others prolly better imo. 

wins and gaa for me doesn't mean as much as sv% for me sv% is more important as it shows how much of the pucks you actually stop and vernon's sv% is rarely in the top 10s

 

Roy and Hasek and probably Belfour would be ahead of Vernon during that time period.

 

I would have Vernon ahead of Richter and Vanbiesbrouck and Moog...and I hold Moog in much higher regard than most.

 

There was some more competition for them.  Kirk McLean was one of the best in the league from 1989 to 1994.  Top five goalie over that stretch probably.  Tom Barrasso.  Ron Hextall.

 

Grant Fuhr...wasn't unlike Vernon.  Clutch guy on good teams...the greatest team ever in fact in front of Fuhr.

 

Yeah we're probably forgetting a few but...oh well I can live with watching Vernon wait a few years after screwing up Stan Smyl's breakaway in 1989.

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Roy and Hasek and probably Belfour would be ahead of Vernon during that time period.

 

I would have Vernon ahead of Richter and Vanbiesbrouck and Moog...and I hold Moog in much higher regard than most.

 

There was some more competition for them.  Kirk McLean was one of the best in the league from 1989 to 1994.  Top five goalie over that stretch probably.  Tom Barrasso.  Ron Hextall.

 

Grant Fuhr...wasn't unlike Vernon.  Clutch guy on good teams...the greatest team ever in fact in front of Fuhr.

 

Yeah we're probably forgetting a few but...oh well I can live with watching Vernon wait a few years after screwing up Stan Smyl's breakaway in 1989.

i'm not totally against vernon in the HoF just his sv% really stands out as very avg at best..and hard to see some of these borderline guys get in while guys like Almo who's prolly a sure fire HOFer if he was a canadian or american continue to get snub year in year out for unknown reasons. if they have a strong class of inductees and snub mogliny i can live with that.. but man this class is sooooooooo weak and they snub the guy again.. this isn't like the baseball hof where chilling for political reason others for PED reasons.. i don't think almo fits in any of those category. 

[Kevin Biestra]

15 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i'm not totally against vernon in the HoF just his sv% really stands out as very avg at best..and hard to see some of these borderline guys get in while guys like Almo who's prolly a sure fire HOFer if he was a canadian or american continue to get snub year in year out for unknown reasons. if they have a strong class of inductees and snub mogliny i can live with that.. but man this class is sooooooooo weak and they snub the guy again.. this isn't like the baseball hof where chilling for political reason others for PED reasons.. i don't think almo fits in any of those category. 

 

I'm not sure what the hangup about Mogilny is but after seeing Pierre Turgeon forgiven for the clucking chicken act I am pretty much certain that Mogilny is getting in.  I guess he's in the Glenn Anderson / Barrasso / Doug Wilson category where you have to wait and wait but it will happen.

Honestly there isn't a lot of rhyme or reason to who is and is not a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I don't really think there needed to be any massive hurry for the Sedins or Luongo or Lundqvist compared to some other Hall of Famers.  Or any need to induct Pronger before he was actually retired.  But the Hall usually gets it right in the end.

 

I am pretty sure Mogilny and Theoren Fleury will be getting in...Glenn Anderson style.

[IBatch]

14 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Mogilny deserves it more than pretty much all the inductees other than maybe Lundkvist.

Mike Vernon shouldn’t be in hall of fame.

I've been saying Vernon deserves to be in for years.   3 finals - two cups two different teams.    Conn Smythe, Vezina finalist, votes 6 times .. 385 wins actually isn't that far off Lundqvist - if you take away his shoot-out wins and make them ties not sure he even makes the 400 win club.    Mike Vernon was money come the playoffs. 

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, IBatch said:

I've been saying Vernon deserves to be in for years.   3 finals - two cups two different teams.    Conn Smythe, Vezina finalist, votes 6 times .. 385 wins actually isn't that far off Lundqvist - if you take away his shoot-out wins and make them ties not sure he even makes the 400 win club.    Mike Vernon was money come the playoffs. 

 

Four finals I believe.  He took over the net in 1986 for Calgary the same way Roy did for Montreal.  Of course it's the rookie playoff sensation that wins the final game of the season who gets remembered.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Roy and Hasek and probably Belfour would be ahead of Vernon during that time period.

 

I would have Vernon ahead of Richter and Vanbiesbrouck and Moog...and I hold Moog in much higher regard than most.

 

There was some more competition for them.  Kirk McLean was one of the best in the league from 1989 to 1994.  Top five goalie over that stretch probably.  Tom Barrasso.  Ron Hextall.

 

Grant Fuhr...wasn't unlike Vernon.  Clutch guy on good teams...the greatest team ever in fact in front of Fuhr.

 

Yeah we're probably forgetting a few but...oh well I can live with watching Vernon wait a few years after screwing up Stan Smyl's breakaway in 1989.

Without Vernon in net,  no way do they win a cup in 89, let alone get by the Canucks.    Vernon made great saves on half a dozen shots and players, otherwise we'd have maybe gone to the final instead.    That series was the cup final really. 

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, IBatch said:

Without Vernon in net,  no way do they win a cup in 89, let alone get by the Canucks.    Vernon made great saves on half a dozen shots and players, otherwise we'd have maybe gone to the final instead.    That series was the cup final really. 

 

One of the all time great series of any round.  Plucky underdog Canucks finishing off the 80s the way they started them.  Too bad we didn't go further...it was kind of the last playoff hurrah for a lot of legends...Mel Bridgman, Stan Smyl, Harold Snepsts, Paul Reinhart.

 

And people forget that Steve Weeks came in and won a game in that series.  Hell of a backup.  He was the guy we got for King Richard and Weeks actually got votes for the post-season All Star Team that year.  He was that good.  And one of the only Canuck goalies in history to have a sub-3.00 GAA for a full season before that became the norm leaguewide.  Back then 3.30 was an excellent GAA as you well know.

[IBatch]

This class does seem to be a make-up class for sure.    All these guys should have been in the Hall by now (except Lundqvist) Next up Mogilny and Theo Fluery.   Also think Osgood deserves to be in, what he did for a weaker but still good Detroit team in the late 2000's, no way do they go to the finals and win a cup without him.   400 wins.   Four finals, 3 as a starter.     He was no Corey Crawford.    Front runner for the Conn Smythe both his last finals, would have won it for sure had they won back to back cups.  Osgood obliterated the idea that he was just a good goalie on a great team near the end of his career.   By then he was a great goalie, on a good team. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i look at sv% as a whole and comparing him to goalies every year.. he's rarely even in the top 10s in sv% he was clutch at times and gotten a lot of wins during that period but i gotta say it's a by product of being on a good team. 

 

in no particular order and prolly different time periods between 1986-97

i prolly have belfor roy ritcher hasek vanbisesbrouck fuhr moog and prolly a few more others prolly better imo. 

wins and gaa for me doesn't mean as much as sv% for me sv% is more important as it shows how much of the pucks you actually stop and vernon's sv% is rarely in the top 10s

Funny though, how on a meh team, almost done in the dead puck era, for Florida he posted what at that time was a very good sp (was it .919 can't remember - but good).     It's the playoffs that get him the nod too.   Was money like Billy Smith and Like Furh, Vernon had the best glove in hockey.   And he wasn't 6'4".   5'7".    Best of the little goalies, which says a lot considering who else was there Beezer, Irbe, Richter. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i'm not totally against vernon in the HoF just his sv% really stands out as very avg at best..and hard to see some of these borderline guys get in while guys like Almo who's prolly a sure fire HOFer if he was a canadian or american continue to get snub year in year out for unknown reasons. if they have a strong class of inductees and snub mogliny i can live with that.. but man this class is sooooooooo weak and they snub the guy again.. this isn't like the baseball hof where chilling for political reason others for PED reasons.. i don't think almo fits in any of those category. 

One of the criteria, is what a player is like out of hockey and are they a good ambassador, what do they do for the community etc.   It's why the Sedins got in right away.   Every single person they called why vetting them, had great things to say about them.    Gartner and McDonald brought this up when they called and gave them the news (watched the video).  Mogilny wasn't like that.   It's why he's still waiting for the call. 

 

It's always been that way too.  Harvey, when he retired, was considered one of, with Shore, the best D all-time.    The Hall snubbed him because he liked his beer.    Harvey didn't go when they did induct him because of the slight.   Turgeon probably should have been in for awhile.    But sitting on the bench while your teammates are going to war for real on the ice was a stinky cloud that stuck around a long time after.     They will eventually let him in.  Kariya versus Mogilny is a good debate.  Who was actually better.    Mogilny scored more goals and won a cup yet isn't in.  This is the why.  

Edited June 22, 2023 by IBatch

[Kevin Biestra]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

One of the criteria, is what a player is like out of hockey and are they a good ambassador, what do they do for the community etc.   It's why the Sedins got in right away.   Every single person they called why vetting them, had great things to say about them.    Gartner and McDonald brought this up when they called and gave them the news (watched the video).  Mogilny wasn't like that.   It's why he's still waiting for the call. 

 

It's always been that way too.  Harvey, when he retired, was considered one of, with Shore, the best D all-time.    The Hall snubbed him because he liked his beer.    Harvey didn't go when they did induct him because of the slight.   Turgeon probably should have been in for awhile.    But sitting on the bench while your teammates are going to war for real on the ice was a stinky cloud that stuck around a long time after.     They will eventually let him in.  Kariya versus Mogilny is a good debate.  Who was actually better.    Mogilny scored more goals and won a cup yet isn't in.  This is the why.  

 

The last time we'll ever see the Hall of Fame penalize someone for not fighting I imagine.

[Kevin Biestra]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

One of the criteria, is what a player is like out of hockey and are they a good ambassador, what do they do for the community etc.   It's why the Sedins got in right away.   Every single person they called why vetting them, had great things to say about them.    Gartner and McDonald brought this up when they called and gave them the news (watched the video).  Mogilny wasn't like that.   It's why he's still waiting for the call. 

 

It's always been that way too.  Harvey, when he retired, was considered one of, with Shore, the best D all-time.    The Hall snubbed him because he liked his beer.    Harvey didn't go when they did induct him because of the slight.   Turgeon probably should have been in for awhile.    But sitting on the bench while your teammates are going to war for real on the ice was a stinky cloud that stuck around a long time after.     They will eventually let him in.  Kariya versus Mogilny is a good debate.  Who was actually better.    Mogilny scored more goals and won a cup yet isn't in.  This is the why.  

 

This criterion mostly seems to work against players rather than in their favor.  Trevor Linden and Olaf Kolzig are both within throwing distance of the Hall of Fame...both are King Clancy winners.  There isn't really a better testimony to character than that but I don't think it will get them over the hump.

 

Meanwhile...Mogilny...leaves a relatively neutral impression about character?  And it's a decade plus wait.

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

This criterion mostly seems to work against players rather than in their favor.  Trevor Linden and Olaf Kolzig are both within throwing distance of the Hall of Fame...both are King Clancy winners.  There isn't really a better testimony to character than that but I don't think it will get them over the hump.

 

Meanwhile...Mogilny...leaves a relatively neutral impression about character?  And it's a decade plus wait.

Brought this up as to the why the Sedins got in first ballot.   As for Mogilny,  neutral  would be a positive, actually think there were some negatives, as far as how he was with his teammates and his communities, which is why Kariya got in, and why despite opening the door and having a pretty comic hero or anti-hero like origin story, is still waiting for the call.   As far as actual pure skill, i'd rank Mogilny ahead of both the Sedins.    Almost done his career in the dead puck era, he did more than they could manage at the start of their careers, and at the start of his NHL career, he exploded into the scene.    Just figure this is the reason he hasn't had the call yet.   And for sure he will eventually.   Until Ovi, was the highest producing Russian ever with Federov.     And if he started a little earlier, same with Bure and Federov for that matter,  you can bet they'd have some added stats.  

 

Kariya versus Mogilny is an interesting debate.   One scored more goals.   Both played about the same many games.   One also won a cup and other medals.   Mogilny was an extraordinary player, like Selanne really.   Just didn't have the same longevity (or maybe desire too).   Made a ton of money, and left on top. 

 

Edit: Also the reason why Alfie was already in too (community work).   Doesn't explain why Elias isn't in yet though either.    Both guys were crucial to their fanbases and hold all the records for their respective franchises, yet one actually won cups.    Maybe there is also an old school bias towards russians/soviet bloc.  Both Gartner and McDonald were absolutely part of that generation where they were the enemy. 

 

Do agree this is a weaker class.   A make up one really.   Know how many shootout wins Lundqvist had?   He participated in 111 of them.   And won 61.   He didn't even make the 400 win column compared to all pre-lockout goalies.   He's actually not that far ahead of Vernon on the win column.    Cujo is way ahead of him.    Sure he was one of the best goalies of his era, and Luongo is a good comp (Luongo would be right around where Sawchuk was if those things were just considered ties - and Sawchuk didn't do OT ... so really Sawchuk, Plante , Bower all those old guys should be given extra props for that as well).     

 

In the end it's a happy day for me.   Some of the legends for acknowledged that were long long overdue.    Funny both of us have been talking about this for years now.  Wilson got his call.   And now Barrasso and Vernon.   

Edited June 22, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i'm not totally against vernon in the HoF just his sv% really stands out as very avg at best..and hard to see some of these borderline guys get in while guys like Almo who's prolly a sure fire HOFer if he was a canadian or american continue to get snub year in year out for unknown reasons. if they have a strong class of inductees and snub mogliny i can live with that.. but man this class is sooooooooo weak and they snub the guy again.. this isn't like the baseball hof where chilling for political reason others for PED reasons.. i don't think almo fits in any of those category. 

Funny thing.   You add the clutching and grabbing and he did not at all benefit from goal equipment exploding, almost done on a mediocre Florida team, he posted a ridiculous save percentage for the time.   .919 or something.    Maybe, and i've been saying this for years, because Roy and others save percentages also went up and up and up in the 90's, the talent level was getting worse and obstruction made their jobs a lot easier.   

 

How's save percentage doing now?  Is Markstrom a worse goalie?  Vasilevsky? Why, since we've finally got guys scoring over 150 points again, and D's scoring 96-101 again ... hmmm.   Maybe the talent level is finally getting back to what it used to be like?   Rolling four lines.    Fox, Makar, QHs, Hedman, Josi, EK... etc etc guys that can and will produce over a PGP a from the backend ... 

 

Zubov went from years at 50 ish points to over 70 at 37 after the lockout.   But it still took time after all the legends from the 70-90's retired.   Like two decades.   Lidstrom, Sakic, Alfie all had record years after the lockout long in the tooth.   37 year olds scoring over 100 points isn't normal, even for HHOFers.  

 

The 2000's were bad.   Great for goalies though.   Probably the easiest era for goalies all-time.   Maybe just maybe, talent level is finally catching up with expansion. 

 

And equipment advances have finally balanced out. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by IBatch

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Funny thing.   You add the clutching and grabbing and he did not at all benefit from goal equipment exploding, almost done on a mediocre Florida team, he posted a ridiculous save percentage for the time.   .919 or something.    Maybe, and i've been saying this for years, because Roy and others save percentages also went up and up and up in the 90's, the talent level was getting worse and obstruction made their jobs a lot easier.   

 

How's save percentage doing now?  Is Markstrom a worse goalie?  Vasilevsky? Why, since we've finally got guys scoring over 150 points again, and D's scoring 96-101 again ... hmmm.   Maybe the talent level is finally getting back to what it used to be like?   Rolling four lines.    Fox, Makar, QHs, Hedman, Josi, EK... etc etc guys that can and will produce over a PGP a from the backend ... 

 

Zubov went from years at 50 ish points to over 70 at 37 after the lockout.   But it still took time after all the legends from the 70-90's retired.   Like two decades.   Lidstrom, Sakic, Alfie all had record years after the lockout long in the tooth.   37 year olds scoring over 100 points isn't normal, even for HHOFers.  

 

The 2000's were bad.   Great for goalies though.   Probably the easiest era for goalies all-time.   Maybe just maybe, talent level is finally catching up with expansion. 

 

And equipment advances have finally balanced out. 

i mean era adjusted advance stats also shows vernon have a negative gsaa in the regular season and the playoff. vernon is an average goalie that had great team success and was clutch at times when he needed to be. he was below average in gsaa in 10+ seasons and 4 of the 5 seasons he finished top 10 in vezina. basically he benefitted from playing behind teams that gives up very few shots and scoring chances. i have nothing against vernon but he is at best a very very fringe hof that got in based on team success and not individual stats or accomplishment. if you cover the name and toss me all those stats and doesn't show what he has won i don't even think he gets a single vote in the hof

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i mean era adjusted advance stats also shows vernon have a negative gsaa in the regular season and the playoff. vernon is an average goalie that had great team success and was clutch at times when he needed to be. he was below average in gsaa in 10+ seasons and 4 of the 5 seasons he finished top 10 in vezina. basically he benefitted from playing behind teams that gives up very few shots and scoring chances. i have nothing against vernon but he is at best a very very fringe hof that got in based on team success and not individual stats or accomplishment. if you cover the name and toss me all those stats and doesn't show what he has won i don't even think he gets a single vote in the hof

Question and mean this in the nicest way possible.  Did you watch him play?    Truly enjoying the tank of save percentages these days myself.   .904 this year.   Yikes!  

Edited June 22, 2023 by IBatch

[cripplereh]

Mogilny gets booted or not picked cause he's Russian.

 

He defected at a time you just didn't.

 

That's sad this guy comes over players like a beast deserves to be in yet nope not picking him.

 

Will be interesting next year when Datsuik time to be picked.

 

He doesn't get it they need to redo the pickers.

[DrJockitch]

4 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

Mogilny gets booted or not picked cause he's Russian.

 

He defected at a time you just didn't.

 

That's sad this guy comes over players like a beast deserves to be in yet nope not picking him.

 

Will be interesting next year when Datsuik time to be picked.

 

He doesn't get it they need to redo the pickers.

He was part of possibly the greatest junior line in history. He was an amazing offensive player, turned into an amazing defensive player and the story of his defection is harrowing. He had the longevity and he deserves it much more than many.