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Religion cannot be proven by worldly sciences


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#1981 Pineapples

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

I'm with J.R. I think you're strawmanning the opposition.


How so?
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#1982 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:11 AM

How so?

Because I've read most of this thread and I don't remember a single person claiming that they had absolute evidence for nonexistance, let alone multiple people over the good part of the last 60 pages.
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#1983 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

Alright, lets all have a good laugh:

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#1984 ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:25 AM

In response to the joke posted above: it's been said that "no one can achieve enlightenment." For enlightenment is the eradication of the "one" who seeks, who acts, who does. In order to see the face of God, as it were, one must cease to be that which can be called "one." So, there is no contradiction. This seeming joke is, in fact, the height of wisdom.

I say that religion CAN and WILL be proven by worldly sciences. Meditation and yoga are worldly sciences or equivalent, and that is real strong evidence that religious beliefs are based on concrete reality. If the divine isn't real, why does this stuff work? Our science is not advanced enough right now, but major advances are coming - quantum computing and the Planck telescope, things like that, next-gen particle accelerators, when the next golden age of physics comes round, which will be in the next 30 years, it will prove things that religious people have been claiming for thousands of years. Vedanta is reality, it can be proven and demonstrated experimentally, it makes real predictions that are falsifiable. Science imposes artificial limits on what we accept as "knowledge" and that's what has dragged this process out for so long, but the technology is finally within our reach to prove via science what humanity has known intuitively for millenia.

Edited by ThaBestPlaceOnEarth, 19 December 2012 - 01:32 AM.

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#1985 Pineapples

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:27 AM

Because I've read most of this thread and I don't remember a single person claiming that they had absolute evidence for nonexistance, let alone multiple people over the good part of the last 60 pages.


There were many posts of this so called evidence. Plenty of articles and links trying to prove science has the answer.
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#1986 Pineapples

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:32 AM

I say that religion CAN and WILL be proven by worldly sciences. Meditation and yoga are worldly sciences or equivalent, and that is real strong evidence that religious beliefs are based on concrete reality. If the divine isn't real, why does this stuff work? Our science is not advanced enough right now, but major advances are coming - quantum computing and the Planck telescope, things like that, next-gen particle accelerators, when the next golden age of physics comes round, which will be in the next 30 years, it will prove things that religious people have been claiming for thousands of years. Vedanta is reality, it can be proven and demonstrated experimentally, it makes real predictions that are falsifiable. Science imposes artificial limits on what we accept as "knowledge" and that's what has dragged this process out for so long, but the technology is finally within our reach to prove via science what humanity has known intuitively for millenia.


People cannot prove or disprove anything supernatural. If they could, it wouldn't be supernatural anymore, it would be just natural.

People have beliefs, and that's what they are, just beliefs. Something that they can't prove but they just believe in it. Which is totally fine. The issue is if someone claims that they have the answers.
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#1987 Pineapples

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:34 AM

Alright, lets all have a good laugh:

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It's things like this that probably get a lot of people turning towards atheism.

Which is a shame since one doesn't need to believe the Bible to believe in a creator.
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#1988 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:36 AM

It's things like this that probably get a lot of people turning towards atheism.

Which is a shame since one doesn't need to believe the Bible to believe in a creator.


That, and the "believe as I believe and do what the bible says or you're going to hell" crap. I get a feeling that's not overly popular with people 'on the fence' and those that actually question their faith.
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#1989 Pineapples

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:45 AM

That, and the "believe as I believe and do what the bible says or you're going to hell" crap. I get a feeling that's not overly popular with people 'on the fence' and those that actually question their faith.


Yea I don't like that either. Nobody should be threatened into believing something.

Those people are creating less believers. Which is normally the opposite of what religions want to do.
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#1990 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:53 AM

There were many posts of this so called evidence. Plenty of articles and links trying to prove science has the answer.

Surely you could provide at least one of them, then.
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#1991 Pineapples

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:01 AM

Surely you could provide at least one of them, then.


I thought you said you read most of this thread? SS left plenty of articles trying to convince me he was right.

I don't feel like clicking "previous page" 30 times to find it. If you know a simpler way to go back through the pages, then let me know, or use it to find them.
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#1992 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:56 AM

I thought you said you read most of this thread? SS left plenty of articles trying to convince me he was right.

I don't feel like clicking "previous page" 30 times to find it. If you know a simpler way to go back through the pages, then let me know, or use it to find them.

I did read most of the thread, and I don't remember anyone claiming to have evidence of the nonexistence of a deity. I'm pretty sure it's a mischaracterization by you of counterarguments against theistic claims. I could very well be wrong, though.

You can search by keyword in this thread with the search bar in the top right. That's probably the fastest way.

Edited by VICanucksfan5551, 19 December 2012 - 02:53 PM.

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#1993 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

In response to the joke posted above: it's been said that "no one can achieve enlightenment." For enlightenment is the eradication of the "one" who seeks, who acts, who does. In order to see the face of God, as it were, one must cease to be that which can be called "one." So, there is no contradiction. This seeming joke is, in fact, the height of wisdom.

I say that religion CAN and WILL be proven by worldly sciences. Meditation and yoga are worldly sciences or equivalent, and that is real strong evidence that religious beliefs are based on concrete reality. If the divine isn't real, why does this stuff work? Our science is not advanced enough right now, but major advances are coming - quantum computing and the Planck telescope, things like that, next-gen particle accelerators, when the next golden age of physics comes round, which will be in the next 30 years, it will prove things that religious people have been claiming for thousands of years. Vedanta is reality, it can be proven and demonstrated experimentally, it makes real predictions that are falsifiable. Science imposes artificial limits on what we accept as "knowledge" and that's what has dragged this process out for so long, but the technology is finally within our reach to prove via science what humanity has known intuitively for millenia.


Ha. No...there isn't "real strong evidence that religious beliefs are based on concrete reality". Complete crap...but you're entitled to think whatever absurd nonsense you wish. Meditation and yoga are far from actual science as well...it may be connected to psychology somewhere down the line...but psychology is not a physical science. What the hell are you toking on.

Edited by Munchie Marauder, 19 December 2012 - 07:00 AM.

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#1994 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:14 AM

I spent 11 hours at the hospital last night visiting a sick relative and most of it was just sitting around a waiting room surrounded by an influenza social party...and the ones that weren't coughing their heads off were hounding me about religion and jesus and asking me what church I go to and telling me weirdly absurd things like "Oh, belief in god will cure your grandmother's dementia...she doesn't need to take her medication"...These people were very lucky I was baked out of my skull or I may have had to break my pacifism vow. It is UNBELIEVABLE how many people in my area and other surrounding areas believe in this faith healing BS and get this...actually have taken their SERIOUSLY ILL children OFF of medication that is supposed to help them in favor of the power of prayer...which does absolutely nothing. Reality check. Saying magic words about an ailing loved one does not compare in the SLIGHTEST to actual medical care...medical science. You religious wackaloons really really need to wake up and smell the roses. God is imaginary. When you get down on your knees and murmur to yourself late at night...NO ONE is listening...ok? Or hell...what do I care...go on and keep eschewing medication in favor of a worthless prayer...eventually there won't be very many of you left to deal with.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#1995 Russ

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

That, and the "believe as I believe and do what the bible says or you're going to hell" crap. I get a feeling that's not overly popular with people 'on the fence' and those that actually question their faith.

I basically had someone once tell me that, if I didn't read the bible and believe everything it said I would go to hell. I told them atleast hell was warm.

PS: I believe in a creator and god, I just don't believe or want to read all the mumble jumble, since I have always been very into the sciences and evolution of man so people telling me I was wrong turned me off church etc.
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#1996 Heretic

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

It's things like this that probably get a lot of people turning towards atheism.

Which is a shame since one doesn't need to believe the Bible to believe in a creator.


Actually, it's things like that, that made me turn away from atheism and search the truth for myself instead.

"This passage (John 1:18) is not meant to deny that men had witnessed "manifestations" of God, as when he appeared to Moses and the prophets (compare Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 6:1-13); but it is meant that no one has seen the essence of God, or has "fully known God.""
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#1997 J.R.

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:17 AM

What a dumb thing to argue over. Why do care so much about that anyway?


It certainly is! :lol: Because that's pretty much what this entire thread is about...? :unsure:

In response to the joke posted above: it's been said that "no one can achieve enlightenment." For enlightenment is the eradication of the "one" who seeks, who acts, who does. In order to see the face of God, as it were, one must cease to be that which can be called "one." So, there is no contradiction. This seeming joke is, in fact, the height of wisdom.

I say that religion CAN and WILL be proven by worldly sciences. Meditation and yoga are worldly sciences or equivalent, and that is real strong evidence that religious beliefs are based on concrete reality. If the divine isn't real, why does this stuff work? Our science is not advanced enough right now, but major advances are coming - quantum computing and the Planck telescope, things like that, next-gen particle accelerators, when the next golden age of physics comes round, which will be in the next 30 years, it will prove things that religious people have been claiming for thousands of years. Vedanta is reality, it can be proven and demonstrated experimentally, it makes real predictions that are falsifiable. Science imposes artificial limits on what we accept as "knowledge" and that's what has dragged this process out for so long, but the technology is finally within our reach to prove via science what humanity has known intuitively for millenia.


Uggghh...so many holes :picard:

Firstly religion does not need to be proven. It is a widely accepted fact that religion and religious people exist. Religion does not = god. In fact, I'll go as far as saying... if there is in fact a god, it's absolutely disgusted in what we call religion in their name.

Second, how you tie meditation or yoga to science and religion is laughable. I don't even know where to begin to tear that apart it's so vast in it's ridiculousness. Yoga "works" because it teaches discipline and fine tunes muscles and mind to expand/contract, balance, flex, and use the breath to relax/create ease. It's a "practice" of fine tuning your body and mind. Meditation does basically the same but more so for the mind. There does not need to be any religious element to either. And I would say any religious element would cloud the true purpose of either with man mande assumptions, expectations etc. The only "scientific" thing about either would be the measurable differences in athletic/mental abilities and activity.
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#1998 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

In response to the joke posted above: it's been said that "no one can achieve enlightenment." For enlightenment is the eradication of the "one" who seeks, who acts, who does. In order to see the face of God, as it were, one must cease to be that which can be called "one." So, there is no contradiction. This seeming joke is, in fact, the height of wisdom.

I say that religion CAN and WILL be proven by worldly sciences. Meditation and yoga are worldly sciences or equivalent, and that is real strong evidence that religious beliefs are based on concrete reality. If the divine isn't real, why does this stuff work? Our science is not advanced enough right now, but major advances are coming - quantum computing and the Planck telescope, things like that, next-gen particle accelerators, when the next golden age of physics comes round, which will be in the next 30 years, it will prove things that religious people have been claiming for thousands of years. Vedanta is reality, it can be proven and demonstrated experimentally, it makes real predictions that are falsifiable. Science imposes artificial limits on what we accept as "knowledge" and that's what has dragged this process out for so long, but the technology is finally within our reach to prove via science what humanity has known intuitively for millenia.

Haaaaahahahahaha.

Yoga is not scientific.. Yoga is New Age pseudoscientific superstition garbage.

And how you supposedly think ahead of scientists without any evidence is just as laughable.

Edited by zaibatsu, 19 December 2012 - 11:32 AM.

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#1999 J.R.

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:41 AM

Haaaaahahahahaha.

Yoga is not scientific.. Yoga is New Age pseudoscientific superstition garbage.

And how you supposedly think ahead of scientists without any evidence is just as laughable.


I wouldn't go as far as calling it "garbage". It's a form of physical activity that trains the body and mind similar to any other/similar discipline. In that regard it's not dissimilar to martial arts which I don't think you'd call "garbage", would you?
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#2000 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 02:21 PM

I wouldn't go as far as calling it "garbage". It's a form of physical activity that trains the body and mind similar to any other/similar discipline. In that regard it's not dissimilar to martial arts which I don't think you'd call "garbage", would you?

As someone who was put in martial arts as a child.. yes, martial arts is garbage too.

Although, between yoga and martial arts.. martial arts is worse because it can easily give someone the impression they stand much a chance in hand to hand combat against someone with a knife or gun, in fact, this is explicitly what I was taught, about how karate can disarm people with the most dangerous weapons. Another point where Hollywood has too much influence, and the selling point is not based on intelligence but an idea that has more in common with a church than objective wisdom. Martial arts also results in a significant amount of injuries just by practice!

The problem with yoga is the cost.. a person can take their lazy fat bum outside and get exercise for free, yoga tends to be expensive, especially when taken in courses over the years (at any fitness centre or gym being the most common places), and coupled with other yoga products people tend to buy. It's an utter waste of money and it's based on complete nonsense -- stretching (which yoga is), is only useful for maybe half a minute and that's as a precursor to actual exercise. The truth isn't hard to handle.. eat healthy, exercise, try to avoid stress.. don't need a gimmick for that.

Edited by zaibatsu, 19 December 2012 - 02:25 PM.

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#2001 VICanucksfan5551

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

Yoga can actually be pretty good at relaxation and core strength. It's not just stretching. That said, you don't need to tie in religion to explain how it works.
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#2002 Trelane42

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:48 PM

The problem with yoga is the cost.. a person can take their lazy fat bum outside and get exercise for free, yoga tends to be expensive, especially when taken in courses over the years (at any fitness centre or gym being the most common places), and coupled with other yoga products people tend to buy. It's an utter waste of money and it's based on complete nonsense -- stretching (which yoga is), is only useful for maybe half a minute and that's as a precursor to actual exercise. The truth isn't hard to handle.. eat healthy, exercise, try to avoid stress.. don't need a gimmick for that.


You’re describing exercise routines that the North America fitness industry has cobbled together from who knows where and appropriated the exotic sounding “yoga” label so as to market the thing to gullible females and effete males willing to part with cash for the privilege of being taught remedial high school stretching exercises.

This has NOTHING to do with the yoga outlined in the Bhagavad-Gita and other sacred Eastern texts. Genuine disciples of Hinduism, Daoism, Zen, and other sects don’t view NA yoga studios as places of enlightenment. Indeed, the social context makes them just the opposite.

Very simply: yoga = meditation/stillness of the mind, NOT body stretching. Other than being able to follow simple instructions (and maybe read) there is no cost associtated with yoga.

One is a valid vehicle toward enlightenment or religious experience. The other, as properly stated, is a poor substitute for weight training and diet with respect to changing body shape, which is the actual goal of 99% clientele in these so-called yoga clinics.

Carry on boys. But some of you may want to be careful about what you call “New Age pseudoscientific superstition garbage.” As with everything in life, doer knows more than mere talker. Scientists who have gone on to practice actual yoga did not find it unrewarding.
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#2003 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

You’re describing exercise routines that the North America fitness industry has cobbled together from who knows where and appropriated the exotic sounding “yoga” label so as to market the thing to gullible females and effete males willing to part with cash for the privilege of being taught remedial high school stretching exercises.

This has NOTHING to do with the yoga outlined in the Bhagavad-Gita and other sacred Eastern texts. Genuine disciples of Hinduism, Daoism, Zen, and other sects don’t view NA yoga studios as places of enlightenment. Indeed, the social context makes them just the opposite.

Very simply: yoga = meditation/stillness of the mind, NOT body stretching. Other than being able to follow simple instructions (and maybe read) there is no cost associtated with yoga.

One is a valid vehicle toward enlightenment or religious experience. The other, as properly stated, is a poor substitute for weight training and diet with respect to changing body shape, which is the actual goal of 99% clientele in these so-called yoga clinics.

Carry on boys. But some of you may want to be careful about what you call “New Age pseudoscientific superstition garbage.” As with everything in life, doer knows more than mere talker. Scientists who have gone on to practice actual yoga did not find it unrewarding.

I can certainly understand what you mean about the commercialised yoga, and I agree.

However, the subjective concept of "rewarding" and "spiritual" effectively describes even the religious version of yoga. All in one's own head.
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#2004 Special Ed

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:43 AM

I have my own religion called 'unknowingness'. Basically it's just I'm not exactly sure why we are all here or how we got here. The meaning of life is I don't know. And I'm pretty unsure about most other things too, but feel free to ask as me stuff... on Sundays. Leave me a message though Sunday is also my official nap day. Or if you see me and my eyes are closed while snoring feel free to comment I swear I'm still listening.
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#2005 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:36 AM

I have my own religion called 'unknowingness'. Basically it's just I'm not exactly sure why we are all here or how we got here. The meaning of life is I don't know. And I'm pretty unsure about most other things too, but feel free to ask as me stuff... on Sundays. Leave me a message though Sunday is also my official nap day. Or if you see me and my eyes are closed while snoring feel free to comment I swear I'm still listening.


This is not a new vantage point and it isn't a religion, it's called Agnosticism.
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#2006 Scott Hartnell's Mane

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 06:55 AM

You’re describing exercise routines that the North America fitness industry has cobbled together from who knows where and appropriated the exotic sounding “yoga” label so as to market the thing to gullible females and effete males willing to part with cash for the privilege of being taught remedial high school stretching exercises.

This has NOTHING to do with the yoga outlined in the Bhagavad-Gita and other sacred Eastern texts. Genuine disciples of Hinduism, Daoism, Zen, and other sects don’t view NA yoga studios as places of enlightenment. Indeed, the social context makes them just the opposite.

Very simply: yoga = meditation/stillness of the mind, NOT body stretching. Other than being able to follow simple instructions (and maybe read) there is no cost associtated with yoga.

One is a valid vehicle toward enlightenment or religious experience. The other, as properly stated, is a poor substitute for weight training and diet with respect to changing body shape, which is the actual goal of 99% clientele in these so-called yoga clinics.

Carry on boys. But some of you may want to be careful about what you call “New Age pseudoscientific superstition garbage.” As with everything in life, doer knows more than mere talker. Scientists who have gone on to practice actual yoga did not find it unrewarding.


If it's pseudoscientific...I will call it pseudoscientific...what exactly is there that I need to "be careful" of? Is the magical Yoga Yeti going to cut my balls off while I sleep?
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Well I tell you what Heretic..if Tim Tebow becomes Terry Bradshaw I will shave off all my hair, convert to Christianity, go into the ministry and become a preacher.


#2007 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

If it's pseudoscientific...I will call it pseudoscientific...what exactly is there that I need to "be careful" of? Is the magical Yoga Yeti going to cut my balls off while I sleep?

You'll get a pulled groin, and possibly blue balls. Don't frack with the yoga yeti.

Edited by zaibatsu, 20 December 2012 - 08:38 AM.

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#2008 J.R.

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:59 AM

It

As someone who was put in martial arts as a child.. yes, martial arts is garbage too.

Although, between yoga and martial arts.. martial arts is worse because it can easily give someone the impression they stand much a chance in hand to hand combat against someone with a knife or gun, in fact, this is explicitly what I was taught, about how karate can disarm people with the most dangerous weapons. Another point where Hollywood has too much influence, and the selling point is not based on intelligence but an idea that has more in common with a church than objective wisdom. Martial arts also results in a significant amount of injuries just by practice!

The problem with yoga is the cost.. a person can take their lazy fat bum outside and get exercise for free, yoga tends to be expensive, especially when taken in courses over the years (at any fitness centre or gym being the most common places), and coupled with other yoga products people tend to buy. It's an utter waste of money and it's based on complete nonsense -- stretching (which yoga is), is only useful for maybe half a minute and that's as a precursor to actual exercise. The truth isn't hard to handle.. eat healthy, exercise, try to avoid stress.. don't need a gimmick for that.


It's pretty clear you had a bad martial arts teacher and have almost no idea of what goes on in yoga if you think all it is is "stretching".

The sheer amount of ignorance in that post is astounding.
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#2009 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:37 AM

It


It's pretty clear you had a bad martial arts teacher and have almost no idea of what goes on in yoga if you think all it is is "stretching".

The sheer amount of ignorance in that post is astounding.

"Bad" martial arts teacher? LOL.. there is no such thing as bad for something that's made up on the spot.

About yoga, actually doesn't look like I was off, so be astounded all you like for no reason:

http://www.statistic...oga-statistics/

But given the highly subjective and ambiguous nature of what yoga entails, it's no different than stretching+religion, it's no surprise the North American version of yoga is what most of us are around rather than, say, the Tibetan version. I take it that part of the world is where you live?

It's like a debate on religion, where I cite the King James version of the bible and you call me ignorant while citing the New American Standard. Either way, it's a debate on made up s***.
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#2010 J.R.

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:08 PM

"Bad" martial arts teacher? LOL.. there is no such thing as bad for something that's made up on the spot.

About yoga, actually doesn't look like I was off, so be astounded all you like for no reason:

http://www.statistic...oga-statistics/

But given the highly subjective and ambiguous nature of what yoga entails, it's no different than stretching+religion, it's no surprise the North American version of yoga is what most of us are around rather than, say, the Tibetan version. I take it that part of the world is where you live?

It's like a debate on religion, where I cite the King James version of the bible and you call me ignorant while citing the New American Standard. Either way, it's a debate on made up s***.


WTF are you even talking about?! Now martial arts are made up on the spot? :blink:

And I have no idea what point you're trying to make about yoga but the fact that you think it's just simple stretching and not "actual exercise" is enough to tell me you haven't the foggiest as to what you're talking about. It's a hell of a lot harder form of exercise than you're giving it credit for. It's fantastic for core strengthening, increased balance, flexibility, joint strength etc. It also helps with injury prevention/recovery from "actual" :rolleyes: exercise.

Yes, there's about a million varieties of yoga (yes the N.A. version is QUITE different from the eastern based ones) and while yes (like anything religious) the "spiritual" aspects are largely malarkey, you're wholesale discount of it as a form of exercise, healing, relaxation, mental focus etc is just plain ignorant.

Edited by J.R., 20 December 2012 - 12:10 PM.

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- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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