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[Discussion] Roberto Luongo Trade Thread 3.0


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#1531 Gollumpus

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:53 PM

It'll be a huge distraction and his value will decrease as he continues to age and not play a lot of hockey.

Understand now?


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regards,
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#1532 King of the ES

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:54 PM

I understand that you believe what you want to regardless of the reality. Luongo was asked about this when he was interviewed just before scheduled training camp, as was Schneider.

They both said basically the same thing.... they are huge supporters of each other and they can find a way to make it work until a deal gets done.


So if I'm not dealing with reality, would you please explain how Luongo's value will be higher in June of 2013, as a 34 year-old fresh off his first season as Cory Schneider's backup, then what it is today?

And BTW, another thing that Luongo said, when he arrived in August, was that he did not expect to be back here. To me, that sounds like a subtle poke to the GM.
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#1533 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:39 PM

The answer to this question is far more clear than is the question of why Toronto would want to give up on Biggs.

We don't want to pay $5.3M to our backup. Pretty easy and obvious.


Toronto needs Luongo, that makes sense does it not?

And the whole point of trading Luongo (Or trading anyone for that matter) is to make your team better, if the deal doesn't make us better then why do it? Having an all-star tandem is better than getting nothing in return.

For Toronto Biggs is more exapendable than alot of other things we would be interested in, they have alot of former 1st round picks, and giving up one to get an all-star goalie makes them alot better.

Think about it this way for both sides, What makes Toronto better? Getting Luongo or holding onto Biggs? It's clear which is more beneficial to there success, and for us what makes us better? And all-star tandem/insurence if something happens, or getting nothing in return? Again it is clear which is more benefical.

If we don't get anything good I would rather just hold onto Luongo till the trade Deadline atleast, when there will be pressure on a team like Toronto to get a goaltender.
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#1534 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

So if I'm not dealing with reality, would you please explain how Luongo's value will be higher in June of 2013, as a 34 year-old fresh off his first season as Cory Schneider's backup, then what it is today?

And BTW, another thing that Luongo said, when he arrived in August, was that he did not expect to be back here. To me, that sounds like a subtle poke to the GM.


He can poke MG all he wants, MG hasn't gotten anything close to what Luongo is worth thus-far, that should be somewhat of a complement to Lu that we think enough of him not to trade him away for garbage.
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#1535 King of the ES

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

Toronto needs Luongo, that makes sense does it not?


"Needs" is debatable. Reimer almost got them into the playoffs in 2011, practically single-handedly. If they have any belief in him all, still, it wouldn't make much sense to acquire Luongo. At 24 years old, it's reasonable to think that they might instead want to try and develop him.

If they've lost faith in him, then, yes, it would stand to reason that they'd need another goaltender. But I'm not sure that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that that's what they've done.

And the whole point of trading Luongo (Or trading anyone for that matter) is to make your team better, if the deal doesn't make us better then why do it? Having an all-star tandem is better than getting nothing in return.


Not if you can't afford the all-star tandem, it doesn't. And not if the all-star tandem carries with it a lot of negative attachments, like the element of distraction, the fact that neither goalie would be happy with it, the fact that the deal which we eventually get will be even worse than what it would be today, etc.

Think about it this way for both sides, What makes Toronto better? Getting Luongo or holding onto Biggs? It's clear which is more beneficial to there success, and for us what makes us better? And all-star tandem/insurence if something happens, or getting nothing in return? Again it is clear which is more benefical.


Getting Luongo would probably make them better immediately, but what you're not considering is the fact that getting Luongo ties you to him until 2022. That is a major, major factor. Burke used your logic when he made the Kessel trade; acquiring Kessel made them better today, yes, but most/all would rather have Seguin as it stands now. Thinking on a too short time horizon has been a big factor in Toronto's post-lockout misery.

And if Toronto thinks that Biggs is comparable to Dustin Brown, as a few people on this thread have suggested, you can be assured that they will not be moving him.
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#1536 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:43 PM

"Needs" is debatable. Reimer almost got them into the playoffs in 2011, practically single-handedly. If they have any belief in him all, still, it wouldn't make much sense to acquire Luongo. At 24 years old, it's reasonable to think that they might instead want to try and develop him.

If they've lost faith in him, then, yes, it would stand to reason that they'd need another goaltender. But I'm not sure that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that that's what they've done.


They can continue to have faith in these goalies as much as they want, they have for like 7 years and what good has that done?

If anything is a proven fact it is that Toronto cannot make the playoffs with this type of goaltending, Riemer isn't a starter, Scrivens isn't a starter, I look at them as how our team was in 05-06, some nice pieces on the roster but they need a goaltender to bring everything together, they continue to wait for nothing, Burke will lose his job and another Era in leafs history can go by with them being the embaressment of the league (even the sports world according to ESPN) but what good will that do? They need Luongo to get out of this mess.

Not if you can't afford the all-star tandem, it doesn't. And not if the all-star tandem carries with it a lot of negative attachments, like the element of distraction, the fact that neither goalie would be happy with it, the fact that the deal which we eventually get will be even worse than what it would be today, etc.


But we can afford it, and what distraction? All that is distracted is the fans, both Cory and Roberto aren't destracted by it, they just brush it off and move forward. Maybe it won't get better, but Toronto can just continue struggle, if the deal makes us worse then why would we do it? It doesn't make sense, once it gets to the point where we absolutely have to do something & Roberto becomes a burden, then we can step down our current stance, but I see no reason to do so.

Getting Luongo would probably make them better immediately, but what you're not considering is the fact that getting Luongo ties you to him until 2022. That is a major, major factor. Burke used your logic when he made the Kessel trade; acquiring Kessel made them better today, yes, but most/all would rather have Seguin as it stands now. Thinking on a too short time horizon has been a big factor in Toronto's post-lockout misery.


That's not a fact, that's not even true. You can't prove that is a fact. You don't know what the CBA will hold, so anything you say isn't fact it's your speculation which holds no merrit at all.

Even with the current system He could retire before then, which would then terminate the contract, so either way that isn't nearly the issue you seem to think it is, your just looking for something to continue your argument. but believe me this isn't it, you haven't thought this through, the only area you look at in this topic is the one that backs up your argument which happens to be the weakest one, if you want to base part of your argument off of this then you should look at all areas and you will see this isn't nearly the issue you believe it is.


And if Toronto thinks that Biggs is comparable to Dustin Brown, as a few people on this thread have suggested, you can be assured that they will not be moving him.


I don't know what they think of him, that's just how I compared him for someone who didn't know much about him.

As I said they have ton's of first round pick prospects, giving up one for the greater good isn't a huge issue, especially since we are willing to move on the negotiation by offering a 2nd not a 1st and only asking for Bozak insted of someone like McArthur or Lupul exc. So surley they could move a little then make a deal that satisfies both sides.

After all this is a negotiation and as Burke has said, the best deals are the one's that work for both sides, and my proposed deal is one that would be great for both sides, they don't give up too much & they get a significant upgrade that will make there overall team a ton better, much better than Biggs ever could and we get some nice assets that fills depth and fills a current hole (Bozak: 3rd Line C) and then some other things to help refill the prospect cupboard (Biggs, 2nd)
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#1537 Provost

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

So if I'm not dealing with reality, would you please explain how Luongo's value will be higher in June of 2013, as a 34 year-old fresh off his first season as Cory Schneider's backup, then what it is today?


Well again your assumptions are off the mark.

#1. The premise of the argument you have made is that we have to ditch him at all costs, regardless of the return we get. If there is no trade on the table which gets us a reasonable return now... how are we losing out by waiting? If as the Toronto folks think, he has negative value and we have to take one of their crappy contracts in return for them doing us the favour of releiving us of Luongo... then there is nowhere but up as far as return on the asset goes.

#2. You assume he would be Schneider's backup. In the case I was talking about a shortened season they would probably much more evenly split the starts just to keep rested.

#3. If Luongo has another solid year of performance and numbers under his belt and shows the character of being willing to take on a smaller role without bitching... then that looks great on him.

#4. He didn't say he didn't expect to be here, when he was interviewed just before the start of training camp (scheduled at least)... he made it very clear that he would report and that staying on a team with guys he loves in a winning environment was not such a bad thing.

No one things both will be here long term... but for another half season or so, no issue at all.
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#1538 smurf47

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:04 PM

How will it be a distraction? It has been posted before that Luongo is a team player and is good friends with Schneider and the rest of the team. What if Schneider starts to crumble and Luongo comes in and dominates? Again, there is nothing wrong with keeping bot h goalies if we can't find a good deal for Lu.

Pretty big "IFS" if Schneider crumbles and " if" Luongo dominates !! Lou is still a Canuck for two reasons (1) an unsigned CBA and (2) no one has stepped up and paid the Canucks what the Canucks think hes worth. Just might be that the Canucks(and their fans) have over-valued him.; His 2011-12 was no stellar season on a first placed team. This goaltending situation will resolve itself if, and when we have a CBA.
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#1539 smurf47

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:05 PM

He can poke MG all he wants, MG hasn't gotten anything close to what Luongo is worth thus-far, that should be somewhat of a complement to Lu that we think enough of him not to trade him away for garbage.

Is worth...or what you think hes worth.
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#1540 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

Is worth...or what you think hes worth.


Niether, what MG thinks he is worth.

Why? What do you think a star goalie like Roberto is worth?
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#1541 smurf47

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:15 PM

Niether, what MG thinks he is worth.

Why? What do you think a star goalie like Roberto is worth?

I have no idea what hes worth, and as much as I think hes done great things in the past. ie great teammate, community involvement and hard worker, I know longer see him as elite ! Hes still upper middle but my experience sees too many flaws in his game now to be consistant on a day to day basis. Hes no longer " star" quality.
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#1542 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:17 PM

I have no idea what hes worth, and as much as I think hes done great things in the past. ie great teammate, community involvement and hard worker, I know longer see him as elite ! Hes still upper middle but my experience sees too many flaws in his game now to be consistant on a day to day basis. Hes no longer " star" quality.


He might not be the best goalie in the league, maybe not top 5, but I do still see him as a star.
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#1543 Riviera82

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 08:46 PM

Schneider wouldn't be able to stop a fully healed Vancouver team from winning. 4-1 Vancouver.


Lol, and Luongo would?
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#1544 smurf47

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:08 PM

He might not be the best goalie in the league, maybe not top 5, but I do still see him as a star.

and I believe you are entitled to your opinion !
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#1545 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 09:18 PM

and I believe you are entitled to your opinion !


I believe your entitled to yours aswell.
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#1546 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 11:33 PM

We can pay 8.8M for our goaltending tandem until the trade deadline or even the upcoming draft until we have a better return in a Luongo trade. Heck, by then if Lu is looking awesome we might just keep him and get a huge return for Schneider. Our hands aren't tied at all, because we have a playoff team without a Lu return. If the season is cancelled, then he might be a good trade piece at a complete lottery draft.


There it is. It's as simple as this post. No need to rush, no need to trade. It's $9.300 MIL/ yr by the way (4.000 + 5.300). There are far worst individual contracts than this tandem. The Canucks are lucky to have two bonafide goaltenders. If cap space is needed down the road, there is some fat to be trimmed in other places on the team.

No rush. As stated in WiDeN's post above, I also believe Luongo will have every opportunity to show he belongs in a Vancouver uniform and all he needs in order to stay is a show of faith from fans and media; no better way to do so by stopping pucks.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 24 November 2012 - 11:40 PM.

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#1547 King of the ES

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:01 AM

They can continue to have faith in these goalies as much as they want, they have for like 7 years and what good has that done?


7 years? Reimer's 24 years old and has played 71 career NHL games. Gustavsson didn't work out, nor did Giguere.

Could it be that maybe it's the team, not not the goalies, that are the problem?

But we can afford it, and what distraction? All that is distracted is the fans, both Cory and Roberto aren't destracted by it, they just brush it off and move forward. Maybe it won't get better, but Toronto can just continue struggle, if the deal makes us worse then why would we do it? It doesn't make sense, once it gets to the point where we absolutely have to do something & Roberto becomes a burden, then we can step down our current stance, but I see no reason to do so.


Are you friends with Cory and Roberto? Did they tell you that in confidence?

You honestly think that they wouldn't be distracted by being hounded by the media after every practice and every game? Roberto would not be happy, as the backup, and Cory would not be happy, as he'd have Roberto Luongo hanging out over his shoulder. Use common sense.

And if the deal makes us "worse" (hard to believe, given the relative unimportance of the backup goaltender), it'll just make us even more worse the longer that we wait.

That's not a fact, that's not even true. You can't prove that is a fact. You don't know what the CBA will hold, so anything you say isn't fact it's your speculation which holds no merrit at all.


Yes, it is a fact. Roberto Luongo's contract expires in 2022.

Even with the current system He could retire before then, which would then terminate the contract, so either way that isn't nearly the issue you seem to think it is, your just looking for something to continue your argument. but believe me this isn't it, you haven't thought this through, the only area you look at in this topic is the one that backs up your argument which happens to be the weakest one, if you want to base part of your argument off of this then you should look at all areas and you will see this isn't nearly the issue you believe it is.


He "could", yes, but smart businesspeople need to analyze every possible outcome. If Luongo's contract with the Vancouver Canucks was negotiated in good faith, there's no reason to assume that he'll retire early.

Even if he did retire early, though, the commitment might be until, what, 2020, instead of 2022? Still a major commitment that you're not considering from the other side's perspective.

Edited by King of the ES, 25 November 2012 - 07:08 AM.

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#1548 King of the ES

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 07:05 AM

#1. The premise of the argument you have made is that we have to ditch him at all costs, regardless of the return we get. If there is no trade on the table which gets us a reasonable return now... how are we losing out by waiting? If as the Toronto folks think, he has negative value and we have to take one of their crappy contracts in return for them doing us the favour of releiving us of Luongo... then there is nowhere but up as far as return on the asset goes.


The return will be even less "reasonable" with the longer that we wait.

Still waiting for somebody to explain how a 34 year-old backup in 2013 will be more valuable than what Luongo is worth today.

#4. He didn't say he didn't expect to be here, when he was interviewed just before the start of training camp (scheduled at least)... he made it very clear that he would report and that staying on a team with guys he loves in a winning environment was not such a bad thing.


He did say that he didn't expect to be here:

“Two months ago, after what had just happened and Schneids had just signed and I didn’t really see myself being here,” Luongo said in his first comments locally since the end of the season.
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#1549 smurf47

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:13 AM

He might not be the best goalie in the league, maybe not top 5, but I do still see him as a star.

Goaltending is a specific science, and has evolved at an amazing pace over the last 30 years. Although Lou has managed to maintain his numbers over the last few years, his game is not evolving. The younger goalies are passing him by and last year, his stats were a reflection of that. Melanson had him playing amazingly well 2 years ago but in the playoffs, Lou reverted to his old style, probably pressure related, and,was inconsistant from game to game. Unless he changes he will never improve.
The new age goalies, even at very young ages are technically amazing , not yet NHL ready, but technically better than many goalies playing today.
Patrick Roy, Ken Dryden could not play in todays NHL without major changes to their games, because the game has changed so much. Lou is 33, and 23 yr old goalies are the new breed. 10 years in goaltending development is another step in evolution.
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#1550 sampy

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:51 AM

7 years? Reimer's 24 years old and has played 71 career NHL games. Gustavsson didn't work out, nor did Giguere.


Neither did Toskala, Raycroft, Gerber, Kidd, Pogge, Tellqvist or Aubin. In fact, the Leafs haven't had decent goaltending since they acquired VETERAN goaltending in Belfour and Joseph over a decade ago.
Do you think Leafs nation is tired of goalies with so-called potential??

Edited by sampy, 25 November 2012 - 10:52 AM.

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#1551 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

7 years? Reimer's 24 years old and has played 71 career NHL games. Gustavsson didn't work out, nor did Giguere.

Could it be that maybe it's the team, not not the goalies, that are the problem?



Are you friends with Cory and Roberto? Did they tell you that in confidence?

You honestly think that they wouldn't be distracted by being hounded by the media after every practice and every game? Roberto would not be happy, as the backup, and Cory would not be happy, as he'd have Roberto Luongo hanging out over his shoulder. Use common sense.

And if the deal makes us "worse" (hard to believe, given the relative unimportance of the backup goaltender), it'll just make us even more worse the longer that we wait.



Yes, it is a fact. Roberto Luongo's contract expires in 2022.



He "could", yes, but smart businesspeople need to analyze every possible outcome. If Luongo's contract with the Vancouver Canucks was negotiated in good faith, there's no reason to assume that he'll retire early.

Even if he did retire early, though, the commitment might be until, what, 2020, instead of 2022? Still a major commitment that you're not considering from the other side's perspective.


The distraction is fabricated by the local media in order to sell papers and fans repeat what they hear. It is deplorable. In this world, the few strong are shunned and the weak mass wins. It is the law of depreciation and has been instilled since the "prise de la Bastille" in 1789 France.
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#1552 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

The return will be even less "reasonable" with the longer that we wait.

Still waiting for somebody to explain how a 34 year-old backup in 2013 will be more valuable than what Luongo is worth today.



He did say that he didn't expect to be here:

“Two months ago, after what had just happened and Schneids had just signed and I didn’t really see myself being here,” Luongo said in his first comments locally since the end of the season.


Calling Lou a backup is asinine. Get with the program.
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#1553 smurf47

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:44 AM

Calling Lou a backup is asinine. Get with the program.

He will be Schneider's backup if he remains a Canuck. My guess is that he will be traded, even more likely with a drop in salary cap ! He might not be a backup on a lot of teams, but would be a backup on at least 6-8 teams.
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#1554 WiDeN

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:08 PM

7 years? Reimer's 24 years old and has played 71 career NHL games. Gustavsson didn't work out, nor did Giguere.

Could it be that maybe it's the team, not not the goalies, that are the problem?

You aren't trying to say Reimer is a viable option, when you think Schneider is an unproven rookie that should have been traded are you?
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#1555 WiDeN

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:15 PM

He will be Schneider's backup if he remains a Canuck. My guess is that he will be traded, even more likely with a drop in salary cap ! He might not be a backup on a lot of teams, but would be a backup on at least 6-8 teams.

You say that from a technique stand point, but are forgetting that there is politics involved, and if Luongo was being acquired by any team it would be as a #1. I realize this was a statement unrelated to a trade, but it seems misleading to say that. If Quick was on NYR, then he would be a backup too. Miller would be a backup on 3-4 teams. If you are a backup on 15 teams, then you would be the league median for goaltenders. That's not so shabby. Anything above that is above average.
I'm not saying that I think Lu isn't on the decline, but just pointing out that your statement actually isn't so bad, but it is worded in a rather misleading way.
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#1556 Provost

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 12:39 PM

The return will be even less "reasonable" with the longer that we wait.
Still waiting for somebody to explain how a 34 year-old backup in 2013 will be more valuable than what Luongo is worth today.


I guess I am the idiot for continuing to argue with someone so dense and biased.... but here goes.

If the return right now is as suggested and a 3rd liner on a terrible contract plus a 2nd round pick (2-5% chance they would ever see a single NHL game).... then there is no "less" in value. As a matter of fact, it would be better to waive him instead of taking on a bad contract in return... we have no issues signing free agents to fill the cap space at a better cap value than that.

As has been noted, a guy who is still easily somewhere in the top 10 of NHL goalies isn't quite a backup. If he continues his stellar play another season, then the fact he is one year older makes no difference.... he would be keep proving that he is likely to be good as he ages similar to Brodeur.

He did say that he didn't expect to be here:

“Two months ago, after what had just happened and Schneids had just signed and I didn’t really see myself being here,” Luongo said in his first comments locally since the end of the season.


Well you might want to complete his whole quote which entirely disagrees with your argument in his own words...

“...But I realized once we got into August, that that was a possibility, and that I was OK with that. The fact that I have a lot of good friends on the team, in the staff and the coaching staff and the organization, makes it a lot easier for me to be here, that’s why I’m here today, and I didn’t really hesitate in deciding whether I should come or not. I’m going to leave that more up to (Gillis) to do his thing, I don’t really want to be talking about any other teams right now. I’m here with Vancouver. I think it’s a bit disrespectful towards (Gillis) and others to be talking about other places. I’m just here to play, man. That’s all I want to do. I’m going to play and work hard like I always do ­— and the cards will fall where they may.”

Boy does that ever sound like a guy who is looking to cause trouble in the dressing room!!!

Edited by Provost, 25 November 2012 - 12:49 PM.

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Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!

#1557 King of the ES

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

Neither did Toskala, Raycroft, Gerber, Kidd, Pogge, Tellqvist or Aubin. In fact, the Leafs haven't had decent goaltending since they acquired VETERAN goaltending in Belfour and Joseph over a decade ago.
Do you think Leafs nation is tired of goalies with so-called potential??


Toskala was good with the Sharks, Raycroft was good with the Bruins, Gerber was good with the Ducks.

Again, could it be that the team was/is just not that good, regardless of who their goaltender is?
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#1558 King of the ES

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:18 PM

Calling Lou a backup is asinine. Get with the program.


Like it or not, that's what his status is on the Vancouver Canucks.
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#1559 King of the ES

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

You aren't trying to say Reimer is a viable option, when you think Schneider is an unproven rookie that should have been traded are you?


Sure he's a viable option. In 2010-11, Reimer went 20-10-5 on Toronto - Toronto - , with a .921 SVP and a 2.60 GAA. 3 SO, too, and as a 22 year-old. Damn near led them to the playoffs by himself.

This is a totally different scenario to Vancouver's. Toronto's not a veteran team that are allegedly in contention to win a Cup.

Edited by King of the ES, 25 November 2012 - 01:22 PM.

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#1560 Mufasa

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 01:21 PM

Lp
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