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edit: lovin this change!


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#181 Kryten

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:01 AM

I have liked AV as a coach but it is time to move on to someone who can give this team a killer instinct. We need playoff wins and we need a coach who can motivate and show leadership to our current group (and perhaps a little better at handling our injured players). AV is a good coach but his personality drives the team culture and I would like to see this culture changed. I also wouldn't mind seeing new looks for our PP, our defensive coaching (meaning bye bye Bones), and a new breakout that actually provides player and puck support.
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#182 nuck nit

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:12 AM

I'd rather watch an opposing hockey play amazing hockey while the team I cheer for puts up amazing scoring chances.
The hockey we are watching is not enjoyable.


Ehrhoff,Salo,Kesler,Samuelsson,Coho......
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#183 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:22 AM

The goalies are paid how many millions to perform?
Red Light Racicot,with a name like that you may remember Ken Dryden days when he allowed a very defensive minded MC team to win multiple cups based upon a style that we are witnessing with the AV coached team of late.
I hated Montreal because I loved Bobby Orr but hockey is not won with just scoring.The goalies actually help the team win games,series and Stanley Cup Championships.


Im not sure what you mean drawing that comparison.

Some of those Hab teams averaged well over 4 goals per game, they completely dominated the NHL.
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#184 DownUndaCanuck

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:38 AM

AV deserves all the credit in the world for this 6 game winning streak. It definately hasn't just been Schneider winning us games single handedly - we're winning because of our TEAM DEFENCE. Obviously Schneider is making some great saves, but the defence is collapsing so well right now that he doesn't often have to make a second save. How many odd-man rushes or breakaways has Schneider seen in the last 6 games? I can count 1 or 2 max. Before these injuries, we used to have at least 1 or 2 against per game.

The players have bought into AV's "emergency style" of play, which is solid defence, chip and chase and don't take any risks. The only problem is that we're not always playing this style of game, because quite frankly it wins games, whereas our open-run-and-gun style of play leaves our goalie vulnerable and ends up with us coughing up leads and losing games.

This defence-first mentality is what wins playoff games, not the gambling offensive style that AV employs when we have a healthy Kesler and Booth. We should ALWAYS play this way. It may be boring, it may be hard to watch and it may be straining on our defenders but it wins games.

This is the exact same way Los Angeles played every single game last season and look what happened. They took the experience of close, tight checking 1-goal games into the playoffs and whooped everyone, because no one else was used to playing that way. Right now, the Canucks are pretty much the only team in the league playing playoff-type hockey and we'll go deep if we keep it up.

You look at teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh who are playing loose styles because they have the firepower up front, but trust me this won't go far in the playoffs if they come up against a defensive stalwart like Ottawa, New Jersey, Boston, Los Angeles or the Canucks. A good defence always beats a good offence and if we play the way AV is getting the boys to play right now, we'll be tough to beat.
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#185 nuck nit

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:43 AM

The operative word is 'some'.

Their teams were built on defense with Larry Robinson and Jacques Lemaire emulating this winning formula in New Jersey.

Well said,Down under.That is the way it is and the game has operated since Scotty Bowman coached hockey in the 60's and how he learned from his mentors in the 50's and going back to the 40's.

Sam Pollock, asked the 23-year-old Bowman to be his assistant. "Pollock was a very demanding coach," says Bowman. "His philosophy was, You go with your best players as much as you can. I learned that from him."

Edited by nuck nit, 30 March 2013 - 04:53 AM.

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#186 grumpworsley

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 04:57 AM

These types of posts are typically why I hardly come here anymore. If the team is loosing, blow up the team trade Sedin's, if the team is winning, there must be something wrong blow up the team trade Sedin's. It must be agonizingly difficult, for a lot of people to watch any kind of sport and get any kind of satisfaction out of it. It amazes me that even though some of the key players are out with injury's the team still manages to win 6 in a row. Is it a fluke? Must be........ Fire A.V. :picard:

Edited by grumpworsley, 30 March 2013 - 04:59 AM.

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#187 AllEyezOnMe

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:23 AM

I figured I'll post this during a win streak so that nobody can accuse me of being a bandwagoner who "shuts up" until the Canucks are losing. Why? Because I'm right.

Let's set the first, and incredibly obvious thing straight right off the bat:

We've won 6 games in a row because of Schneider, and a few great plays by defensemen here and there (lolHamhuis)


Now we can take a look at how, apart from goaltending, absolutely nothing has changed since our losing streak. Good job AV, you somehow got Schneider playing like a 6x4 wall of bricks.


There's still no scoring (besides empty netters), there's still no powerplay, and there is still stupid line-up choices.

Schroeder still gets benched half way through a game even though that line carried our diminutive offense for several consecutive games. That is the last line that needs a shake-up right now!

Do I really have much else to add? No. It's all been said. All I'm adding this time is that AV is still doing a horrible job, and yet again his ass is being carried by a hot goaltender while AV's team sits on one-goal leads. This will NEVER win a Stanley Cup. Ever.

Fire AV.


Yeh and AV's had nothing to do with the previous success we've had over the last few years right ? It was luongo bailing us out then too ? Lol if anyone needs go be fired it MIKE GILLIS he has absolutely done nothing but trade or let go of the only talent other then the core that we have. Gillis has enherited all the players who actually made a difference these past few years and AV deserves a little more credit then some of you so called "SPORTS ANALYST WANNABES" give him :)
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#188 Bananas

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:25 AM

Ehrhoff,Salo,Kesler,Samuelsson,Coho......


That was a typo that I never ended up editting. I meant to say "I'd rather watch an opposing goalie have a great game rather than ours"

Even then, I don't know how a list of players like that is a response to anything...
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#189 Bananas

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

AV deserves all the credit in the world for this 6 game winning streak. It definately hasn't just been Schneider winning us games single handedly - we're winning because of our TEAM DEFENCE. Obviously Schneider is making some great saves, but the defence is collapsing so well right now that he doesn't often have to make a second save. How many odd-man rushes or breakaways has Schneider seen in the last 6 games? I can count 1 or 2 max. Before these injuries, we used to have at least 1 or 2 against per game.

The players have bought into AV's "emergency style" of play, which is solid defence, chip and chase and don't take any risks. The only problem is that we're not always playing this style of game, because quite frankly it wins games, whereas our open-run-and-gun style of play leaves our goalie vulnerable and ends up with us coughing up leads and losing games.

This defence-first mentality is what wins playoff games, not the gambling offensive style that AV employs when we have a healthy Kesler and Booth. We should ALWAYS play this way. It may be boring, it may be hard to watch and it may be straining on our defenders but it wins games.

This is the exact same way Los Angeles played every single game last season and look what happened. They took the experience of close, tight checking 1-goal games into the playoffs and whooped everyone, because no one else was used to playing that way. Right now, the Canucks are pretty much the only team in the league playing playoff-type hockey and we'll go deep if we keep it up.

You look at teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh who are playing loose styles because they have the firepower up front, but trust me this won't go far in the playoffs if they come up against a defensive stalwart like Ottawa, New Jersey, Boston, Los Angeles or the Canucks. A good defence always beats a good offence and if we play the way AV is getting the boys to play right now, we'll be tough to beat.


But the team is not playing good hockey. Schneider is making them all look good right now. They are not putting in full games in which they try from start to finish. Not while they were losing, and not now. Nor were they last year, and that didn't change come play-offs. The way the Canucks are playing right now will not have them ready for the play-offs.
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#190 Wilbur

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

These types of posts are typically why I hardly come here anymore. If the team is loosing, blow up the team trade Sedin's, if the team is winning, there must be something wrong blow up the team trade Sedin's. It must be agonizingly difficult, for a lot of people to watch any kind of sport and get any kind of satisfaction out of it. It amazes me that even though some of the key players are out with injury's the team still manages to win 6 in a row. Is it a fluke? Must be........ Fire A.V. :picard:


Couldn't have put the bolded text any better myself. Is this team as good as the 2011 edition that were the favourites? No, obviously not. Do they still have the pieces to have a very good chance to win it all? Yes, some stars have to align for that to happen but I'd like to believe it's in the realm of possibility. Firing AV now will not help anything this year so why bother? You normally don't do rebuilds when you're battling for 2nd or 3rd in the conference and the Sedin's aren't going to want to be traded yet anyway (if at all). So, in the meantime, I'm going to cheer for this team and hope for the best.
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#191 thad

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

Did you guys see Schroeder the other night? He was atrocious and deserved to be benched.

I'm a huge Schroeder fan and thought his 4 line demotion was stupid the last time around. But against the Avs he was getting stripped of the puck at will we needed to move him down and lapierre up or we were gonna lose that game.

I will be pissed if he's not back with Hansen and Raymond tonight but don't get on AV for benching Schroeder playing the worst game of his life. He was actually that bad lol
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#192 Yotes

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:47 AM

Look at ottawa and who they have lost

Spezza>Kesler
Karlsson>edler(comparison as hes not injured)
Michalek>Booth
Anderson- We have both goalies healthy

They have had injuries on defence aswell.

Despite all that Ottawa never went on a losing streak, they have the same amount of points as us, they arent making excuses, their coach is getting the best out of who he has. They dont have near as good of a team as us on paper yet they are doing just as good with way more key players injured.

If we had Henrik, edler, Burrows all injured, these are my comparisons to ottawas injuries I dont think we would be doing aswell as Ottawa is. Oh and pick one of our goalies to be injured aswell. As of now we still have both of ours so thats not really an issue

With those injuries, Ottawa has nearly the same amount of goals scored as us(with 3 key offensive players all been hurt) and 13 LESS goals against with their #1 goalie injured and injuries on defence
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#193 Ride the red Pony

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:09 AM

I don't think the defensive strategy has been made by choice, the other teams are forcing the issue, and we simply have no answer.
If running around in our own end, chasing pucks, and watching Schnides having to stand on his head over and over is a strategy, well this would be news to me.
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#194 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:11 AM

Fire Joe_Shmo

I think we all get it by now. Winning or loses the panties stay firmly bunched and the brow stays furrowed at all times.

Edited by EmployeeoftheMonth, 30 March 2013 - 09:19 AM.

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#195 grumpworsley

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

With 14 games left and a win streak of 6 in a row top of their division, who in their right mind would fire AV based on what, that such and such team would do better if they lost comparable players. I am not sure you can even grasp how much it pains me to try and wrap my head around that argument. You would have a better chance convincing me if you had said " I don't like the way Vigneault parts his hair"
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#196 Nino

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:26 AM

Dam straight I want (we need) changes.
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#197 naslund.is.king

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:07 PM

How is this not locked ?? The rules state if a topic already exists Do not create a new one, there is 20. Does his little rant about how lack of scoring and how one of our two star goalies is keeping us in our games add anything to the conversation?

Edited by naslund.is.king, 30 March 2013 - 12:15 PM.

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#198 Yotes

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:27 PM

How is this not locked ?? The rules state if a topic already exists Do not create a new one, there is 20. Does his little rant about how lack of scoring and how one of our two star goalies is keeping us in our games add anything to the conversation?


alot more threads should get locked too then. to me its just discussion, if someone feels its redundant dont contribute and talk in another form. To me thats an easy thing to do, boycott threads you dont like
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#199 Bananas

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:53 PM

Fire Joe_Shmo

I think we all get it by now. Winning or loses the panties stay firmly bunched and the brow stays furrowed at all times.


Sure it will, as long as AV is the coach and we keep seeing the Canucks play a game that will surely result in a first round exit. Give your head a shake.
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#200 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:11 PM

Sure it will, as long as AV is the coach and we keep seeing the Canucks play a game that will surely result in a first round exit. Give your head a shake.



slash yawn
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#201 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

Okay, seeing as AV’s detractors have somehow missed all of their points addressed, (or more accurately, ignored) I’ll attempt to do so one more time:

AV never talks to his players: Absolutely untrue. This is a myth perpetuated by the anti-AV crowd, based loosely on the fact that he allows his veteran players a certain level of autonomy. Everyone conveniently ignores the comment made by Ballard that the coaches had been talking to him about his game “for a while”. Just because he isn't seen yelling and screaming at his players on the bench like Tortorella, it doesn't mean that he doesn't ever talk to them. The very idea is ridiculous.

Schroeder was playing great. He never should have been demoted: No he wasn’t and yes he should have. After a good start, his play had tailed off and with Kesler and Booth returning to the lineup, it made sense to move him to the 4th line. (If people bother to go back and check boxscores, they would see that the Schroeder-Hansen-Raymond line was putting up consistent minus ratings for three consecutive games, starting with the mid-February loss to Dallas)

After some games on the 4th line, the correct decision was made to send him back to Chicago to play bigger minutes and regain his confidence. This decision was made easier by the fact that Andrew Ebbet had been playing extremely well for the Wolves. In his first game with the big club, Ebbett picked up three points and his line with Hansen and Raymond was the best on the ice.
When Schroeder returned to Vancouver, he was back to playing the way he did early on, showing that the demotion had worked exactly as the coaching staff had intended. People seem to forget that his first point upon returning (and probably his biggest highlight so far this season) was a pass to Dale Weise; Not Raymond or Hansen.

AV “hates” Keith Ballard: It’s funny. People who complain about AV accuse his supporters with “making excuses” for him. Yet the excuses for Ballard are unending. ”He doesn't use him right”. “He doesn't give him a chance to play with the right players”, etc., etc..

To date, Ballard has played in 27 of the team’s 34 games, (even being given a chance at forward) averaging just under 16 minutes per game. (15:51/game according to NHL.com) He has 2 points to show for it, the exact same as Cam Barker has put up in six games. He hasn't played especially poorly. He just hasn't been good enough to overlook a couple of bad games in a row when guys like Barker and Alberts are available. He also was not top 10 in defenseman scoring last season, as Alex Edler was, or top 15 as was Kevin Bieksa. That’s why those two are given more leeway than Ballard and rightly so.

AV relies on his goaltenders to win games: All coaches rely on their best players to win games for them. Bylsma relies on Sid and Geno; Babcock relies on Datsyuk and Zetterberg; Coach Q relies on Kane, Hossa, Toews, Keith and Sharp and Boudreau relies on Getzlaf and Perry…

The Canucks have 10 million dollars tied up in the goaltending position. It should be something that they rely on.

Bear in mind that earlier in the season, when the Canucks were not getting solid goaltending, they were losing games that they would have won if their goalies had at least been as good as the opposition.

AV doesn’t get the most out of his players: Yet here he is, winning with a lineup that includes AHLers, rookies and players new to the team. Can anyone honestly say that he hasn't gotten the most out of guys like Chris Tanev, Jannik Hansen, Chris Higgins, Max Lapierre or Alex Burrows?

AV throws his players under the bus: One of things that a coach needs to be aware of is what motivates his players. It isn't the same for all players. Some guys need a public dressing down, while others may need propping up.

Think back to some of the public criticisms AV leveled at his players.... Wellwood, O’Brien, Kesler…

....can anyone say that these guys didn't respond with improved play afterward?

The Sedins are “never” called out by the coaching staff. Can anyone honestly say that they don’t always work their way out of the doldrums?

AV knows his players. It’s one of the things that makes him the right coach for the team.

AV is not a playoff coach: In every postseason loss, (with one exception) the Canucks have bowed out to the eventual Cup Champion. The Ducks team that knocked them out, as well as the two Blackhawks teams, was simply better than the Canucks.

The other two series losses were at the hands of a Conn Smythe winning goaltender, compounded with the fact that the Canucks dealing with significant injuries to offensive players (and defense, against the Bruins) IMO, he did as well as could reasonably be expected.

AV never makes adjustments. He just does the same things over and over: How many times have we seen complaints about AV's “line juggling”? Changing up the lines is done league wide and is a time-honored method of improving a team’s fortunes in-game.

All players all have good nights and bad nights. Changing up the combinations is an attempt to put together the players that are “on” in that particular game. Yes, there is an element of luck involved, but this is league-wide. How many people think that Crosby-Kunitz and Dupuis was an obvious combination to succeed?

AV only knows how to coach defense: Dead wrong. He has coached the team to top 5 offensive records in the past two seasons. This season, due to injuries and lack of powerplay production, (part of which is due to the injury to Kesler, BTW) it has been necessary for the team to revert to the more defensive style of play that he coached when he first joined the Canucks. The team has responded well and currently sits tied for the 6th overall position in the entire league. It’s this kind of adaptation to two totally differing styles of play, with positive results in both areas, that makes the argument that "AV can’t adapt", a laughable one.

So many people want AV fired, there must be something to it: Let’s examine the reasons people dislike AV..
Too much line juggling - Not enough adjustment.
Throws players under the bus - Not “emotional” enough.
Never lets players develop “chemistry”.- Refuses to change things when they aren't working.
Won’t give young players “a chance” - Can’t see that player X is “a useless plug”.
Ruins players’ confidence by sitting/demoting them - Ruins the goalies’ confidence by not pulling them from games.

Sure, you all agree that AV should be fired but from what I can see, that is the only thing you all agree on.

Sorry for the long read. There was a lot of chaff to sift through...
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#202 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:49 PM

@Rupert. I actually had a summary i was working on for Vansicle. It was a massive merging of all the non-issues in one post. You beat me to it.

The thread can probably end now.

It wont, but there is all afternoon to invent new myths to argue about.
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#203 Baggins

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

1. identified weaknesses to exploit on the other team
2. actually put a plan in place that could realistically be expected to exploit them.

I said be specific did I not? That's about as specific as "AV was out coached". You'll have to do much better than simple vagaries to be convincing.
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#204 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

@Rupert. I actually had a summary i was working on for Vansicle. It was a massive merging of all the non-issues in one post. You beat me to it.

The thread can probably end now.

It wont, but there is all afternoon to invent new myths to argue about.

I decided to make it after TheGame suggested that we hadn't addressed their points, "because we couldn't". You and I both know that we two, as well as others like baggins and Barry have been doing so forever.

I therefore surmised that the other side required a "reader's digest" summation and gave then one.

But you're correct. This will change nothing.
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#205 Bananas

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:57 PM

<snip>


A good read, and thanks for posting some actual content. I just want you to know that I did read it. I'll respond to it in a little bit, as I'm a little busy at the moment.
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#206 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:04 PM

A good read, and thanks for posting some actual content. I just want you to know that I did read it. I'll respond to it in a little bit, as I'm a little busy at the moment.

That's fine. I don't expect anything I wrote to change your mind, or that of any other of AV's detractors. I just wanted you all to know that your points can and have been addressed. Whether you agree, or disagree with my points really comes down to matters of opinion and I realize that none of those is ever likely to change.
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Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#207 Baggins

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

@Rupert

All points I've previously made over the years but never put them all together like that. Excellent post. Sadly because of the length those that need to read it the most likely won't. Simple minded syndrome will kick in when faced with adversity of reading more than a few sentences.
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#208 Baggins

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:06 PM

A good read, and thanks for posting some actual content. I just want you to know that I did read it. I'll respond to it in a little bit, as I'm a little busy at the moment.


We can wait for the brain freeze to wear off.

:shock:

:lol:
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#209 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:23 PM

I said be specific did I not? That's about as specific as "AV was out coached". You'll have to do much better than simple vagaries to be convincing.


Like I said, you won't believe anything I suggest anyway so why not go back and watch those series again and just try to be objective about the coaching decisions that are made.
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#210 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:24 PM

That's fine. I don't expect anything I wrote to change your mind, or that of any other of AV's detractors. I just wanted you all to know that your points can and have been addressed. Whether you agree, or disagree with my points really comes down to matters of opinion and I realize that none of those is ever likely to change.


As have all of yours multiple times as well......works both ways I'm afraid because there is no absolute correct answer to a question about something this subjective.
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