thejazz97 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I am. I am considering getting my hunting license this season to attempt to get my own meat. I hope to be able to make my own burgers, sausages etc.. Dude. Homemade sausage is the best. Jerky is a close second. Haven't tried homemade burgers, but I'm sure they'd be amazing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavoom Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Here is the equation: My utility from consuming animals > (my loss of utility from suffering of animal + my loss of utility from spending $$$ on meat of said animal) Quite frankly, I don't need an excuse as the above sums it up why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Dude. Homemade sausage is the best. Jerky is a close second. Haven't tried homemade burgers, but I'm sure they'd be amazing... you've never had a homemade burger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherwise Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Dude. Homemade sausage is the best. Jerky is a close second. Haven't tried homemade burgers, but I'm sure they'd be amazing... they are. at least one of the links I have provided and a number of my posts all make direct reference to consumer responsibility and education, which i am a HUGE advocate of. not sure why you're tacking this bit on when i have already acknowledged it many times. I think it's important that when educating yourself you need to be aware that almost all documentaries have angle that they are pushing and often only worst/best case is shown. This goes for all areas of ag, not just meat production, where there is a lot of gray area presented as bad. Ag must move toward more sustainable practices, in the US it's really bad, but in Canada there is still a lot of work that could be done. If you want to pick on meat, that's fine, I also hope you would be equally as critical of where your fruits and veggies come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 you've never had a homemade burger? Only with store-bought beef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.DirtyDangles Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 No excuse just conditioned environment.....oh so tasty environment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Wait, what? First of all, I doubt that anyone really disputes that animals should be treated ethically. Of course they should. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't eat them. But anyway, pardon the pun, on to the "meat and potatoes". Humans are removed from the food chain; therefore, by proxy, we should ignore the evolutionary tendencies that give us a preference for meat? So, why not extend that to other aspects of human life and civilization? Perhaps we should also dispatch with our antiquated breeding methods and move towards a more scientific, dispassionate approach? We could have programs that determine the best mate for each person, and we could even get away from the barbaric "traditional" mating systems that involve something as savage as sex. I mean, we're so far removed from nature, why not have machines do all the work? Women wouldn't even need to get pregnant, babies could simply grow in artificial wombs. Given enough time, we could even achieve a Gattaca-like utopia. So, now that the silly stuff is out of the way, how about we look at it practically? Rather than making some absurd argument that meat is passe because we're now "removed from the food chain", why don't we use our cultural and technological advancements to make the production of meat products more ethical? That's what I don't get about this thread. The solution being proposed seems to be a lot of "you shouldn't eat meat" rather than "how can we make meat more ethical?" It's implicit in the title, asking us what excuse we have for eating it. No, eating it is not the problem, and if you agree with me on this point, then there really wasn't any reason to make this thread. As to the other highlighted point, taste is absolutely not irrelevant. It's an important biological indicator of which foods are good for us. Let's be practical, we're not going to get away from that, or undo it with some quasi-logical justification. Based on your premise, there's no reason why we shouldn't be eating the type of gruel that you'd find in the post-apocalyptic world of The Matrix. Let's not get carried away. This response fails on quite a few levels. First, my response to the "food chain" objection was that it is a term being used out of context, and therefore, irrelevant to the point at issue. You clearly didn't understand that. Second, you say that animals should be treated ethically, but that due to certain objections you raise i.e. "evolutionary tendencies" it is permissible to eat them. You then attempt some form of a reductio ad absurdum to show if sex is not treated as a natural, evolutionary preference, we end up with absurd outcomes. In response, you're begging the question whether all of our 'evolutionary tendencies' are good. Not all preferences are good, even if they are highly informed by longtime habit. Take a look at sex: if sex is good because it is an evolved preference like you say, why wouldn't rape be OK? Sure you are causing harm, but it is sex, both of which the rapist and victim should have a 'evolved preference' for. By your reasoning, even if we condemn the harm caused, the act should still have some justifiable aspects to it because it does include what you deem good. According to you, a drugged victim who feels no pain and is totally unaware of the situation could justifiably be raped as well. You're reducing harm and getting that "evolved preference" satisfied are you not? Funny how similar this sounds to how you justify eating animals. But of course that is too simplistic a way of looking at it, much like how you approach the ethics of how animals are treated. I'll give you a hint: you need to do more research about what value, rationality, and morality entail. Third, as for making ethically justified meat products, one poster already mentioned in-vitro produced meat. And GJ and others have mentioned that grass fed, pastured raised animals are by far better treated than the billions raised and slaughtered in CAFO's. In addition, I never said anything about the requirement for animals not being eaten at all. I am all for improvements to animal welfare no matter how small because change takes time. And who knows, maybe in due time attitudes will change enough that the way animals are used today will become a distinct relic of human practice. That is right thing to do, much like how we approach other aspects of arbitrary discrimination like sexism, racism, sexual orientation etc. And I'll be clear: by "right thing to do" I mean what we consider intelligent, because our rational nature requires it. And taste is trivially important when we are talking about more fundamental ethical needs like bodily integrity, autonomy, social well-being etc. Your remark misses the point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKU8j-XUfUQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Despite being such a wonderful and heart warming comparison, unless you are arguing that torturing animals results in improved taste it clearly does not belong and is nothing but hyperbole. As a matter of fact Im almost certain a distressed animal is actually going to taste worse and have less nutritional value then a healthy one, so in this way I suppose Im actually on your side. My point was that we wouldn't treat other trivially important pleasures in the same way, or at least allow them. It is clearly absurd to say animals that the interests an animal has can be superseded by mere taste. And BTW, and A&W veggie burger tastes pretty damn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.DirtyDangles Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 How/when/why did society start calling action on animals humane or inhumane ? They are not human ? When I hear retarded statements like the animals were treated humanely I just wanna smash stuff. I love animals and despise those that abuse them..... wait FML Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 We've had these threads every year going back for many years. Soon Stew (SILLY GOOSE) will spam it with questions of morality towards the suffering of other creatures but that always misses the mark and turns it into a philosophical debate when it frankly, IMO, is simply about resource allocation and health. People want to eat meat.... and until there is an alternative that appeals to the masses who can afford it... or it doesn't become readily available or viable to continue doing so.... it will continue to happen. The question, in my mind, is about best practices both for the planet under these conditions and for diet. See?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 How/when/why did society start calling action on animals humane or inhumane ? They are not human ? When I hear retarded statements like the animals were treated humanely I just wanna smash stuff. I love animals and despise those that abuse them..... wait FML Hey DD, the general meaning of 'humane' can apply can it not? PS How are the bimmers treating you? Mine is coming along nicely. Took it to the track the other day hu·mane (h)yo͞oˈmān/ adjective 1. having or showing compassion or benevolence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 See?!? Well to toot my own horn I stayed out of the discussion for quite awhile as I thought GJ did a really good job discussing the issue. Anyways, public forum right? What did you expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hey DD, the general meaning of 'humane' can apply can it not? PS How are the bimmers treating you? Mine is coming along nicely. Took it to the track the other day hu·mane (h)yo͞oˈmān/adjective 1. having or showing compassion or benevolence BRITISH & WORLD ENGLISHLITERALLY literally Line breaks: lit|er¦al¦ly Pronunciation: /ˈlɪt(ə)rəli/ Definition of literally in English: adverb 1In a literal manner or sense; exactly: the driver took it literally when asked to go straight over the roundabout tiramisu, literally translated ‘pull-me-up’1.1 informal Used for emphasis while not being literally true: I have received literally thousands of letters Words in English are often being used in contrast to their actual meaning. Literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hey DD, the general meaning of 'humane' can apply can it not? PS How are the bimmers treating you? Mine is coming along nicely. Took it to the track the other day hu·mane (h)yo͞oˈmān/adjective 1. having or showing compassion or benevolence Did you enjoy your vegan meal after wasting fuel and polluting the environment for your pleasure.....? Do the owners of the track also replenish the trees/vegetation at other locations to make up for its required removal to pave a track? We all have soap boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 BRITISH & WORLD ENGLISHLITERALLY literally Line breaks: lit|er¦al¦ly Pronunciation: /ˈlɪt(ə)rəli/ Definition of literally in English: adverb 1In a literal manner or sense; exactly: the driver took it literally when asked to go straight over the roundabout tiramisu, literally translated ‘pull-me-up’1.1 informal Used for emphasis while not being literally true: I have received literally thousands of letters Words in English are often being used in contrast to their actual meaning. Literally. lol that makes no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Well to toot my own horn I stayed out of the discussion for quite awhile as I thought GJ did a really good job discussing the issue. Anyways, public forum right? What did you expect? It's fine.... It's just repetitive and doesn't add to the important issues IMHO. Appealing to people's emotions regarding the anthropomorphic tendencies towards animals is fruitless and you know it, yet you persist. The logic of deciding food culture and mores based on such is as unsupportable in a free society as basing law off of religion. It's fine to do what you want to do with yourself hut don't expect anyone else to share your values since they are based only on personal perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 See?!? the thing is, those threads are usually started by him, usually to try to make himself feel superior to everyone because he's a vegan that took some philosophy courses in university and he tries to force his opinion/life choice on us, usually in very insulting (directly or indirectly) methods/phrases (or he's a very serious troll). I usually avoid threads like this for that specific reason, but now i just keep scrolling when i see that goose. I'm not even gonna bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Did you enjoy your vegan meal after wasting fuel and polluting the environment for your pleasure.....? Do the owners of the track also replenish the trees/vegetation at other locations to make up for its required removal to pave a track? We all have soap boxes. I am definitely not perfect. I fully admit that. What's your point? We shouldn't try to be better people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I am definitely not perfect. I fully admit that. What's your point? We shouldn't try to be better people? Would you give up your pastime to "better" yourself/environment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 I am definitely not perfect. I fully admit that. What's your point? We shouldn't try to be better people? Be a better person towards all people before being a better person towards all animals. But whatever you feel is wisest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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