What's your excuse for eating meat?

[key2thecup]

.........

[aeromotacanucks]

why vegans always try convince eating meat is wrong?

carnivores don´t try convince vegetarians to eat meat...

such puritans. my sister is vegan (she´s on a diet) but she doesn´t try convince me to be one. I eat meat, she doesn´t. and we don´t fight against each other...

[thejazz97]

For you vegans who claim that carnivores are killing something that's living, check yourself before you say that again. You are too.

[GLASSJAW]

For you vegans who claim that carnivores are killing something that's living, check yourself before you say that again. You are too.

damn dude. interesting argument. one that will undoubtedly rattle the core of veganism

[AllHailSmyl]

If I don't eat them, they will eat me...

[Realtor Rod]

If I don't eat them, they will eat me...

Here comes bambi

[El_Capitan]

People need to get over that meat is the most efficient way of adding protein to your diet.

It's expensive, it's terrible for the environment and it's not going to last forever.

I for one am excited to see bugs being introduced into North American culture. Cricket protein powder is already being introduced into North American cuisine. I hope it catches on.

[thejazz97]

People need to get over that meat is the most efficient way of adding protein to your diet.

It's expensive, it's terrible for the environment and it's not going to last forever.

I for one am excited to see bugs being introduced into North American culture. Cricket protein powder is already being introduced into North American cuisine. I hope it catches on.

Yeah, but neither will we.

[Angry Goose]

Assumption not fact. Faulty logic!

Science, Tech & Environment

New research on plant intelligence may forever change how you think about plants

Science Friday

January 10, 2014 · 2:00 PM EST

Plants, like these sunflowers, have proven to have amazing sensory abilities, but scientists aren't exactly sure how.

The Intelligent Plant. That is the title of a recent article in The New Yorker — and new research is showing that plants have astounding abilities to sense and react to the world. But can a plant be intelligent? Some plant scientists insist they are — since they can sense, learn, remember and even react in ways that would be familiar to humans. Michael Pollan, author of such books as "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and "The Botany of Desire," wrote the New Yorker piece about the developments in plant science. He says for the longest time, even mentioning the idea that plants could be intelligent was a quick way to being labeled "a whacko." But no more, which might be comforting to people who have long talked to their plants or played music for them. The new research, he says, is in a field called plant neurobiology — which is something of a misnomer, because even scientists in the field don't argue that plants have neurons or brains. "They have analagous structures," Pollan explains. "They have ways of taking all the sensory data they gather in their everyday lives ... integrate it and then behave in an appropriate way in response. And they do this without brains, which, in a way, is what's incredible about it, because we automatically assume you need a brain to process information." And we assume you need ears to hear. But researchers, says Pollan, have played a recording of a caterpillar munching on a leaf to plants — and the plants react. They begin to secrete defensive chemicals — even though the plant isn't really threatened, Pollan says. "It is somehow hearing what is, to it, a terrifying sound of a caterpillar munching on its leaves." Pollan says plants have all the same senses as humans, and then some. In addition to hearing, taste, for example, they can sense gravity, the presence of water, or even feel that an obstruction is in the way of its roots, before coming into contact with it. Plant roots will shift direction, he says, to avoid obstacles. So what about pain? Do plants feel? Pollan says they do respond to anesthetics. "You can put a plant out with a human anesthetic. ... And not only that, plants produce their own compounds that are anesthetic to us." But scientists are reluctant to go as far as to say they are responding to pain. How plants sense and react is still somewhat unknown. They don't have nerve cells like humans, but they do have a system for sending electrical signals and even produce neurotransmitters, like dopamine, serotonin and other chemicals the human brain uses to send signals. "We don't know why they have them, whether this was just conserved through evolution or if it performs some sort of information processing function. We don't know. There's a lot we don't know," Pollan says.

And chalk up another human-like ability — memory. Pollan describes an experiment done by animal biologist Monica Gagliano. She presented research that suggests the mimosa pudica plant can learn from experience. And, Pollan says, merely suggesting a plant could learn was so controversial that her paper was rejected by 10 scientific journals before it was finally published. Mimosa is a plant, which looks something like a fern, that collapses its leaves temporarily when it is disturbed. So Gagliano set up a contraption that would drop the mimosa plant, without hurting it. When the plant dropped, as expected, its leaves collapsed. She kept dropping the plants every five to six seconds. "After five or six drops, the plants would stop responding, as if they'd learned to tune out the stimulus as irrelevent," Pollan says. "This is a very important part of learning — to learn what you can safely ignore in your environment." Maybe the plant was just getting worn out from all the dropping? To test that, Gagliano took the plants that had stopped responding to the drops and shook them instead. "They would continue to collapse," Pollan says. "They had made the distinction that [dropping] was a signal they could safely ignore. And what was more incredible is that [Gagliano] would retest them every week for four weeks and, for a month, they continued to remember their lesson." That's as far out as Gagliano tested. It's possible they remember even longer. Conversely, Pollan points out, bees that are given a similar dishabituation test forget what they've learned in as little as 48 hours. Pollan says not everyone accepts that what Gagliano describes is really learning. In fact, there are many critics with many alternative theories for explaining the response the plants are having. Still ... "Plants can do incredible things. They do seem to remember stresses and events, like that experiment. They do have the ability to respond to 15 to 20 environmental variables," Pollan says. "The issue is, is it right to call it learning? Is that the right word? Is it right to call it intelligence? Is it right, even, to call what they are conscious. Some of these plant neurobiologists believe that plants are conscious — not self-conscious, but conscious in the sense they know where they are in space ... and react appropriately to their position in space." Pollan says there is no agreed definition of intelligence. "Go to Wikipedia and look up intelligence. They despair of giving you an answer. They basically have a chart where they give you nine different definitions. And about half of them depend on a brain — they refer to abstract reasoning or judgment. "And the other half merely refer to a problem-solving ability. And that's the kind of intelligence we are talking about here. ... So intelligence may well be a property of life. And our difference from these other creatures may be a matter of difference of degree rather than kind. We may just have more of this problem-solving ability and we may do it in different ways." Pollan says that really freaks people out — "that the line between plants and animals might be a little softer than we traditionally think of it as." And he suggests that plants may be able to teach humans a thing or two, such as how to process information without a central command post like a brain. Check out this video of Michael Pollan discussing time-lapse photography of bean plants looking very purposeful.

Your logic and reading comprehension is incorrect. The article does not state scientists are making claims that plants are conscious. That is a big difference from "processing sensory information". The article even states that scientists are reluctant to state that plants 'feel' pain because that feeling presupposes consciousness.

Can plants be intelligent? Sure, but that is not the same as being conscious. False equivalence

[Angry Goose]

why vegans always try convince eating meat is wrong?

carnivores don´t try convince vegetarians to eat meat...

such puritans. my sister is vegan (she´s on a diet) but she doesn´t try convince me to be one. I eat meat, she doesn´t. and we don´t fight against each other...

I for one hate the term 'vegan'. If people ask what I eat, I say it is a primarily plant based diet. Although I've said before that sometimes I eat cheese too, so of course I'm no "puritan" either.

And you're wrong about carnivores not trying to convince others to eat meat- just read through this thread. Besides, what do you think fast food commercials are trying to do?

And you know what, I don't try to force this ethical position on anyone, but I do have a problem with people treating the position like it has no rationale or the same as being bat crap crazy. That just pisses me off so I feel obligated to discuss the issue.

[thejazz97]

...

[aeromotacanucks]

I for one hate the term 'vegan'. If people ask what I eat, I say it is a primarily plant based diet. Although I've said before that sometimes I eat cheese too, so of course I'm no "puritan" either.

And you're wrong about carnivores not trying to convince others to eat meat- just read through this thread. Besides, what do you think fast food commercials are trying to do?

And you know what, I don't try to force this ethical position on anyone, but I do have a problem with people treating the position like it has no rationale or the same as being bat crap crazy. That just pisses me off so I feel obligated to discuss the issue.

ERR. I didn´t specifiy that YOU tried to force somebody...

I just posted "why the general vegetarians try force other people?"

I´m the person who believe in choices. and my family also do this. if you manna eat vegetables only that´s good, if not that´s good too.

why you´re so angry about that? sure you posted your point of view and that´s pretty awesome to me know your point of view so I can understand your side. but something you can´t force is make other people who (like me) love meat is understand that only your side is correct...

the media in North America is straight foward. the society there is a "meat lover" addicted with fat and fast-food because it´s cheap and fast to obtain. that´s simple...

the "food culture" is diferent in other countries. in Brazil for example we don´t have this. you don´t see the media forcing you to eat "fast-food" (but force you drink tons of beer) because Brazilians don´t need media telling what and where you should eat...

altought is a common sense that the general population in Brazil (for example) eat meat and vegetables...

you´re eating vegetables so you´re eating a living being. if plants have inteligence or some sort of it that´s another story BUT plants are living creatures. when you eat then you´re eating a living being and that´s wrong too because if I have to kill a cow to eat vegetarians are killing plants to eat too.

and for me that´s the same thing. I will a cow/fish and you kill a plant. we´re both killers...

mind If I ask you something?

do you feel sad when people destroy the tropical rainforest, cut wood just to make a table or some furniture? they´re not killing a single plant only, they´re killing a forest area with the size of BC to cut wood...

clear areas for agriculture to plant soy, corn, rice etc (and yes. areas for farming in general including cow/bulls) and other lovely vegetables you eat.

do you feel sad about that too or is just because I eat meat and you eat vegetables?

do you feel sad when you see a guy from other country come to your home with heavy machines and start destroying your native forest to cut wood and do all that stuff I said before?

Because I saw that live. I saw a forest being destroyed in front of my eyes and for me a plant or an animal being killed is the same thing. living creatures dying because I have to eat and because I (human) need something else

it´s nature dude. plants are the base of "food-chain". cows eat grass, tigers eat cows. humans are just making the job that a tiger would do...

and it´s history. humans needed the process to domesticate animals to improve the food production in order to produce more food. the human history needed both agriculture and animal domestication...

without that humans would need anther hundreds of years more to reach the level of tecnology we have today. would you like to go to the forests in Canada to get your own vegetables to eat? a fruit that isn´t danger so you can eat? good luck buddy...

agriculture is the same thing. you´re manipulating the nature. you´re forcing a plant to grow where you want and YOU decide when the plants will die. you eat their seeds SO you´re eating unborn "babies" of plants...

be a vegan is a choice as at meat is also a choice. in both cases humans hurt nature...

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

Give me 5 to 6 alternatives for protein.

1. beans

2. lentils

now do the rest and I will stop.

[awalk]

^ almonds, quinoa, chickpeas, edamame, spinach, broccoli, hemp seeds, chia seeds, sesame, poppy, sunflower seeds, soy milk....

I love meat, I am a big BBQ guy, but the thought that you need meat for protein is pretty off base. Tons of other solutions.

[DefCon1]

What's my excuse of eating meat???

http://www.evernewrecipes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Lebanese-Kebab.jpeg

[DefCon1]

damn dude. interesting argument. one that will undoubtedly rattle the core of veganism

Vegans are worse than religious people...always trying to convert us. How about we make our own choices? Hate people that try to change my way of living whether it's religion, food, hobby etc. everyone is different and likes to live a certain way. I like to eat meat, I like to drive my car, I like to travel, I like to buy a Mac...everyone should be minding their own business, this is how wars start.

[DefCon1]

ERR. I didn´t specifiy that YOU tried to force somebody...

I just posted "why the general vegetarians try force other people?"

I´m the person who believe in choices. and my family also do this. if you manna eat vegetables only that´s good, if not that´s good too.

why you´re so angry about that? sure you posted your point of view and that´s pretty awesome to me know your point of view so I can understand your side. but something you can´t force is make other people who (like me) love meat is understand that only your side is correct...

the media in North America is straight foward. the society there is a "meat lover" addicted with fat and fast-food because it´s cheap and fast to obtain. that´s simple...

the "food culture" is diferent in other countries. in Brazil for example we don´t have this. you don´t see the media forcing you to eat "fast-food" (but force you drink tons of beer) because Brazilians don´t need media telling what and where you should eat...

altought is a common sense that the general population in Brazil (for example) eat meat and vegetables...

you´re eating vegetables so you´re eating a living being. if plants have inteligence or some sort of it that´s another story BUT plants are living creatures. when you eat then you´re eating a living being and that´s wrong too because if I have to kill a cow to eat vegetarians are killing plants to eat too.

and for me that´s the same thing. I will a cow/fish and you kill a plant. we´re both killers...

mind If I ask you something?

do you feel sad when people destroy the tropical rainforest, cut wood just to make a table or some furniture? they´re not killing a single plant only, they´re killing a forest area with the size of BC to cut wood...

clear areas for agriculture to plant soy, corn, rice etc (and yes. areas for farming in general including cow/bulls) and other lovely vegetables you eat.

do you feel sad about that too or is just because I eat meat and you eat vegetables?

do you feel sad when you see a guy from other country come to your home with heavy machines and start destroying your native forest to cut wood and do all that stuff I said before?

Because I saw that live. I saw a forest being destroyed in front of my eyes and for me a plant or an animal being killed is the same thing. living creatures dying because I have to eat and because I (human) need something else

it´s nature dude. plants are the base of "food-chain". cows eat grass, tigers eat cows. humans are just making the job that a tiger would do...

and it´s history. humans needed the process to domesticate animals to improve the food production in order to produce more food. the human history needed both agriculture and animal domestication...

without that humans would need anther hundreds of years more to reach the level of tecnology we have today. would you like to go to the forests in Canada to get your own vegetables to eat? a fruit that isn´t danger so you can eat? good luck buddy...

agriculture is the same thing. you´re manipulating the nature. you´re forcing a plant to grow where you want and YOU decide when the plants will die. you eat their seeds SO you´re eating unborn "babies" of plants...

be a vegan is a choice as at meat is also a choice. in both cases humans hurt nature...

Humans don't hurt nature, we are part of nature. If nature didn't want us, we would cease to exist.

[DefCon1]

People need to get over that meat is the most efficient way of adding protein to your diet.

It's expensive, it's terrible for the environment and it's not going to last forever.

I for one am excited to see bugs being introduced into North American culture. Cricket protein powder is already being introduced into North American cuisine. I hope it catches on.

Driving a car is terrible for the environment, same as you being on the Internet using all that electricity along with your heater probably turned on...yes all is terrible for the environment

[Angry Goose]

Vegans are worse than religious people...always trying to convert us. How about we make our own choices? Hate people that try to change my way of living whether it's religion, food, hobby etc. everyone is different and likes to live a certain way. I like to eat meat, I like to drive my car, I like to travel, I like to buy a Mac...everyone should be minding their own business, this is how wars start.

You know what, I'm sure slave traders said the same thing to non-conformists about abolishing slavery.

Sure, some things like driving, what sorts of electronics you buy etc don't warrant serious ethical discussion. But the practice of purposing animals for food is full of harm and suffering, so what do you expect? Are animals not deserving of basic happiness too? The fact that you are so unwilling to consider the issue goes to show how dogmatic you are- just like religous zealots you criticize for being stuck in their beliefs.

[D-Money]

You know what, I'm sure slave traders said the same thing to non-conformists about abolishing slavery.

Sure, some things like driving, what sorts of electronics you buy etc don't warrant serious ethical discussion. But the practice of purposing animals for food is full of harm and suffering, so what do you expect? Are animals not deserving of basic happiness too? The fact that you are so unwilling to consider the issue goes to show how dogmatic you are- just like religous zealots you criticize for being stuck in their beliefs.

What about animals who eat animals?

Can we eat them, just to save the poor animals they would have eaten?