WillyFox Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Hey glassjaw I'll be enjoying my ribeye steak tonight with no worries in the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanGnome Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I don't think the government will intervene any time soon, so I think it is up to the consumer to decide. I'm really curious about this bolded part, though. Why are you talking about meat as if it's a necessity to live? What do we NEED a beef dinner for? Or, why do you need a beef dinner more than once a week, or once a month? Are you conflating "need" with "crave" here? Or what? When I say "meat" it's a generalized term for beef, pork, poultry, fish, etc. Necessity to live, and healthy balanced diets to provide a stable platform for the rest of your general health and nutrition are two completely different things. If you look at it from a very minimalist, nuts and bolts fashion, very little is required for the human body to actually survive, and function, albeit not well. In the context of overall health and wellness, a certain portion of one's diet must include certain things such as protein, minerals etc. Generally speaking, the easiest way to absorb those is through the consumption of some kind of meat. You CAN get those same things from other sources, but need to have more of it, as well as other things in order to make up for the difference. For example, soy and meat are almost identical when it comes to dietary protein, there is a big difference however, in the types of nutrients provided by one or the other. From what I remember of a balanced diet, the nutrients existing in soy protein that are lacking in meat are made up for in the forms of salad, and other non meat items. However in a non-meat diet, you have to supplement the lack of those nutrients not in meat from other sources, such as beans, lentils, etc. From where I stand, eliminating added complexity to my diet because of a lack of ethical sympathy makes my life easier; especially when you factor in my wife and I balancing multiple jobs, chores, raising our daughter and trying to find some way to emulate having a personal life. I'm not saying that the treatment of these animals is right, in fact it's wrong, however for me to further complicate my life because of something that I cannot change or have any impact on is just not effective. Time is a very limited resource, and I defer to those with that time, energy and ability to tackle problems that I cannot fit into my life. I just try to conduct myself as best I can, and make the best choices I can, within the framework of my life. Maybe in 10 years the hard work I'm putting in now will free me up to get more involved in issues like these, for now I'm picking my battles, and this isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Light Racicot Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 That seems like a ridiculously loaded question considering the context in which I usually hear it. There is no excuse needed; we owe our survival to it, and Im grateful our (extremely ancient) ancestors came up with such a fantastic adaptation during times when food was otherwise scarce. Nobody leaves Africa otherwise, we all die there. It is too much ingrained in who we are now, our brains would never have developed to their present size without a food source rich in calories, fat and protein. We literally never become human without meat; at least in the ways as we best define ourselves, that is as sapient, thinking creatures. A vegan diet is typically very unhealthy for a lot of people... well obviously. You cant just shirk your own physiological needs and not expect any consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster6 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 GlassJaw, think about how many words you've typed in this thread. Then realize all of that time and energy was wasted because you accomplished nothing but getting yourself publicly mocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 When I say "meat" it's a generalized term for beef, pork, poultry, fish, etc. Necessity to live, and healthy balanced diets to provide a stable platform for the rest of your general health and nutrition are two completely different things. If you look at it from a very minimalist, nuts and bolts fashion, very little is required for the human body to actually survive, and function, albeit not well. In the context of overall health and wellness, a certain portion of one's diet must include certain things such as protein, minerals etc. Generally speaking, the easiest way to absorb those is through the consumption of some kind of meat. You CAN get those same things from other sources, but need to have more of it, as well as other things in order to make up for the difference. For example, soy and meat are almost identical when it comes to dietary protein, there is a big difference however, in the types of nutrients provided by one or the other. From what I remember of a balanced diet, the nutrients existing in soy protein that are lacking in meat are made up for in the forms of salad, and other non meat items. However in a non-meat diet, you have to supplement the lack of those nutrients not in meat from other sources, such as beans, lentils, etc. From where I stand, eliminating added complexity to my diet because of a lack of ethical sympathy makes my life easier; especially when you factor in my wife and I balancing multiple jobs, chores, raising our daughter and trying to find some way to emulate having a personal life. I'm not saying that the treatment of these animals is right, in fact it's wrong, however for me to further complicate my life because of something that I cannot change or have any impact on is just not effective. Time is a very limited resource, and I defer to those with that time, energy and ability to tackle problems that I cannot fit into my life. I just try to conduct myself as best I can, and make the best choices I can, within the framework of my life. Maybe in 10 years the hard work I'm putting in now will free me up to get more involved in issues like these, for now I'm picking my battles, and this isn't one of them. What source or what outline are you using/referring to when you talk about a balanced diet? Or a need for this or that, or whatever? Basically, what are we considering to be "overall healthy"? I am also curious how often you do eat meat. Do you think you eat as much meat as you do because you are filling the requirements of the balanced diet, or are you eating it simply because you want to? (I am not being confrontational in asking that, I am genuinely curious) Also, I think the approach you have to 'change' is kind of misleading. I mean, if everybody saw or thought more about the horrors of factory farming, more people would probably shift away from it. In fact, I think a lot of people are already leading that shift. I don't think it's something out of our control at all. Look, for example, at McDonalds. McDonalds is struggling BIG TIME right now. Why? it's a low quality product that represents a corporate climate that doesn't speak to consumers today. Why do we let Walmart and Costco speak to us? The dollar talks, and factories would shut down. Of course I'm not talking to you specifically, because I have no idea where you shop. But surely you must agree that it doesn't take THAT much effort to simply switch brands? Like the Guardian article suggests; you don't even have to cut out red meat, just simply CUT DOWN and there would be a noticeable difference in harmful emissions. Now imagine if people cut down AND stopped shopping at miserable-ass Costco? The products would improve, costs would have to adjust to customer demand, fewer animals would suffer, and there would be less environmental damage. This has nothing to do with government, it is all consumer-driven, just as we are seeing with garbage-tier McDonalds and A&W, as they grasp and claw at consumer interest while pretending to be the healthy option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASSJAW Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Hey glassjaw I'll be enjoying my ribeye steak tonight with no worries in the world this made me laugh, thanks GlassJaw, think about how many words you've typed in this thread. Then realize all of that time and energy was wasted because you accomplished nothing but getting yourself publicly mocked. i enjoy reading about and discussing topics i enjoy. people on here argue endlessly about religion and politics--nothing is accomplished. why can't i do that about meat? i'm not trying to accomplish anything other than have a discussion. what are you trying to accomplish with this post other than to get my attention? i have no idea who you are. like, i see you. but i'm not sure why. you're sorta just there. and i will not remember your name after this thread closes. if you don't like the discussion, leave. it is really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vavoom Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Why does anybody need an excuse to eat meat? I think the basic equation here is: My personal pleasure from consuming meat > (than my guilt towards animals consumed + cost of meat) Certainly, someone may have been ignorant to the suffering that an animal endures to produce meat, one day realizes this and decides to stop consumption of meat. But speaking for myself, I am fully aware and choose to eat meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamHomer Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Why does anybody need an excuse to eat meat? I think the basic equation here is: My personal pleasure from consuming meat > (than my guilt towards animals consumed + cost of meat) Certainly, someone may have been ignorant to the suffering that an animal endures to produce meat, one day realizes this and decides to stop consumption of meat. But speaking for myself, I am fully aware and choose to eat meat. WOW you're terrible, how dare you put your own needs above the animals you eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster6 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 WOW you're terrible, how dare you put your own needs above the animals you eat. I really hope.. for the sake of humanity.. that this a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanGnome Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 What source or what outline are you using/referring to when you talk about a balanced diet? Or a need for this or that, or whatever? Basically, what are we considering to be "overall healthy"? I am also curious how often you do eat meat. Do you think you eat as much meat as you do because you are filling the requirements of the balanced diet, or are you eating it simply because you want to? (I am not being confrontational in asking that, I am genuinely curious) Also, I think the approach you have to 'change' is kind of misleading. I mean, if everybody saw or thought more about the horrors of factory farming, more people would probably shift away from it. In fact, I think a lot of people are already leading that shift. I don't think it's something out of our control at all. Look, for example, at McDonalds. McDonalds is struggling BIG TIME right now. Why? it's a low quality product that represents a corporate climate that doesn't speak to consumers today. Why do we let Walmart and Costco speak to us? The dollar talks, and factories would shut down. Of course I'm not talking to you specifically, because I have no idea where you shop. But surely you must agree that it doesn't take THAT much effort to simply switch brands? Like the Guardian article suggests; you don't even have to cut out red meat, just simply CUT DOWN and there would be a noticeable difference in harmful emissions. Now imagine if people cut down AND stopped shopping at miserable-ass Costco? The products would improve, costs would have to adjust to customer demand, fewer animals would suffer, and there would be less environmental damage. This has nothing to do with government, it is all consumer-driven, just as we are seeing with garbage-tier McDonalds and A&W, as they grasp and claw at consumer interest while pretending to be the healthy option. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's almost as if you don't actually craft your responses within the full context of the topic you're responding to, and I go out of my way actually to point out that most people don't know how to consume in moderation. As for me and how much "meat" I eat a week, it's probably 2-3 times a week. Most of it's chicken and fish, and really not a ton of red meat. If you think the response to consumerism is to stop consuming, well, that's not how it works. People consume because they can and want to, you're going to have a hard time explaining to people why they should alter their shopping habits because an industry of asshats are incapable of treating their food better. People want what they want and people provide it for sale. People are not going to voluntarily spend/consume less. So absolutely government needs to enforce better practices on the industry. In terms of balanced diets, I use this as a very loose rule of thumb as to what I follow for a balanced diet: http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/food-guide-aliment/index-eng.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongrel Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I was wondering has dairy come up at all in this thread or just meat? A lot of people saying they don't eat meat or only eat x times per x days but what about milk and cheese and butter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arrogant Worms Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I need an excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Duck Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 We eat the grain fed vegans free range so it's ethically ok.. Probably a bit bony. But I'm sure the heart and liver would be very nutritious:) 90% of the people I know, vegetarians included, spend the bulk of their time in cubes indoors, under artificial light, being fed whatever factory supplied crap is cheapest, and getting little to no exercise... Potentially, a tasty, tasty substitute for veal!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Duck Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I was wondering has dairy come up at all in this thread or just meat? A lot of people saying they don't eat meat or only eat x times per x days but what about milk and cheese and butter? Don't forget eggs. And what about that free-range eggs thing anyway? I mean how much fricken' exercise does an egg need anyway!? < due to some of the posters around here, I feel a need to point out that no, I'm not really that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherwise Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 But we have to keep in mind that the vast, vast, vast majority of meat consumers in North America are not consuming grazing cows -- they are consuming feedlot cows. So does it really matter if some cows out there are contributing to a diverse ecology when the majority of us are supporting the corporations that couldn't give a sh*t about anything you just said? FarmForward, which is an advocacy group to educate Americans on the state of farming and the violent/destructive aspect of factory farming, has estimated that 99% of all meat purchased in America does come from Factory Farming. However, that 'stat' is based on the 2002 Census of Agriculture. And I think 2002 pre-dates the whole minor 'food revolution' by a few years. But even assuming the 99% is accurate, how different do you think the stats would be in 2015? 95%? 90%? As for the bolded paragraph below, if we didn't have 'feed' crops, why couldn't that land just be used for farming something else? I think I'm sorta missing your point here, cuz obviously if we didn't have feedlots, we wouldn't need to be farming that otherwise impossible to digest feed. I think I'm missing your point here maybe? Anyway, I'm not going to sit here and shame people for eating grazing cows. If someone feels the need to eat meat that much, then okay. That is, obviously the best way to do it. I'm not convinced that it is an ethical argument for it, but it's the lesser of two evils. For feed crops a lot of these are crops that for whatever reason aren't graded high enough for human consumption, eg. for malting barley it has to be of the highest quality, if there was poor weather the crop might not produce to that high standard so it is often used for feed. Other reasons in general could be disease, frost damage, low protein, small or sprouted seeds. Also some feed is biproducts of other processes like making canola oil, the meal is high in protein. So some crops are grown for other purposes and then end up being feed, while others are grown to be feed. I don't have the exact numbers but for western Canada the majority of beef is raised first on cow/calf opertations where it's mostly grazing then the cattle are sent to a feed lot for finishing for about 3-6 months. I feel in part like while you want to care a lot about where your food comes from and know more about the Canadian food supply chain and that information isn't easily availible. It's an area of info sharing that many people in Agriculture feel is lacking. There is a lot I would like to explain but I don't know where to start. There are so many things that are different between Canadian and US ag and within that Western Canada, Eastern Canada and B.C., that it makes it hard to talk in generalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Goose Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I had a pretty big response typed up and then I hit the F-ing back button. So long story short: I thought GJ did an excellent job presenting the issue in a thoughtful, carefully considered manner. I read through the thread. There were some good points raised, and a lot of the college freshman type variety. I don't think many of the objections raised had much merit. It's all the same stuff you hear time and time again (it's unnatural, it's part of the circle of life/evolution/not sufficient for strength &or nutritional needs/yadda yadda). If you would like my opinion on why these or other specific criticisms fail to persuade, I would be happy to share my thoughts if you so wish. Especially if it annoys theminister so much the better. It is really sad how we treat animals in a variety of ways. I think people like Dev deserve our praise. Helping others in incredibly desperate situations (animal or human) and allowing them the means to happiness is always worthwhile. Yeah I know it sounds sappy, but it is also the intelligent thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretic Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Don't forget eggs. And what about that free-range eggs thing anyway? I mean how much fricken' exercise does an egg need anyway!? < due to some of the posters around here, I feel a need to point out that no, I'm not really that stupid. They taste completely different. They are much better. Have a free range egg sandwich then go eat an egg mcmuffin - you will wonder what the heck are you eating as it doesn't even taste like eggs. BTW, there's no such thing as a free range vegetarian chicken. Chickens are carnivorous. They eat bugs, worms, mice, etc...so if they are free ranging, there's no way to stop them from eating meat. So the only way to get a "vegetarian" egg is if the chicken was holed up in a little box in a sealed room - that's no way for a chicken to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAntar Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 What's your excuse for having fingers to type this? What's your excuse for continuing to breathe? And more importantly where is the downvote button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster6 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 i enjoy reading about and discussing topics i enjoy. people on here argue endlessly about religion and politics--nothing is accomplished. why can't i do that about meat? i'm not trying to accomplish anything other than have a discussion. what are you trying to accomplish with this post other than to get my attention? i have no idea who you are. like, i see you. but i'm not sure why. you're sorta just there. and i will not remember your name after this thread closes. if you don't like the discussion, leave. it is really that simple. ↑ Opinions that do not fit into his ideology are wrong. There was no other result to posting a thread like this. He used inflammatory language and got the same in response. Hard to start much debate when your thread title is designed to rub people the wrong way. All you did was stir the pot, and whenever someone confronted you with a thoughtful rebuttal you just replied as if they were stupid and completely wrong. You should stop demanding the world conform to how you see fit. Instead of stirring the sht pot on the CDC; where you know you'll get an emotional response. I'll reiterate what would be a better plan for you. ↯ What did you honestly expect GJ? If you're looking for other bleeding hearts than go to a PETA chat room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamHomer Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 I really hope.. for the sake of humanity.. that this a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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