Alex Ovechkin joins elite company. Again.

[mpt]

4 hours ago, BI3KSA- said:

Selective memory? Many people thought Ovi was better than Crosby, even during his teams struggles. Over their careers its been a back and forth battle for supremacy season to season and right now I believe Ovi is on top. 

Most people's opinion change during a hot and cold slump; heck just look at this team

[BI3KSA-]

1 minute ago, mpt said:

Most people's opinion change during a hot and cold slump; heck just look at this team

Peoples opinions typically change with new information. I'm not sure why people act like thats a bad thing. Who is truly better isnt something already decided in the past, its an ongoing thing, as such its subject to changing opinions. 

[mpt]

56 minutes ago, BI3KSA- said:

Peoples opinions typically change with new information. I'm not sure why people act like thats a bad thing. Who is truly better isnt something already decided in the past, its an ongoing thing, as such its subject to changing opinions. 

Yes and they only focus on the new information and forget about the past.  It happens all the time, not just in sports but in life.  Why do you think the government only gives positive things close to an election and not in the beginning?  So people only look at the most recent information and forget all their screw ups.

[erkayloomeh]

22 hours ago, HC20.0 said:

Never been a huge fan of Ovechkin, but I have a lot of respect for the guy. One of the greatest goal scorers to ever play the game, especially in an era where goals are hard to come by. Imagine if he played in the 80's. He could have gotten 80+ easy.

Explain to me how you can have a ton of respect for him but nit be a fan? 

[HC20.0]

22 minutes ago, erkayloomeh said:

Explain to me how you can have a ton of respect for him but nit be a fan? 

Having respect for somebody doesn't mean you have to like the person or be a fan of theirs. I have a lot of respect for Ovie, because he's one of the best goal scorers in the game. Doesn't mean I'm a huge fan of his, which I'm not. I have respect for Mark Messier for being one of the greats of the game, but I have a huge dislike for the guy. Especially after what he did to Vancouver. 

[falcon45ca]

Ovi's an absolute beast, such a treat being able to see his talent as it happens. 

If the Canucks don't make the playoffs, I'm rooting for Washintgton.

[HKSR]

On 2/8/2016 at 0:12 AM, WHL rocks said:

100% True. He is the greatest goal scorer in history of the NHL.

He's also a 6'3 235 lbs beast who is top 5 in hits every year. No comparable in the history of the NHL.

You have to take era adjustment into account and when you do it's pretty clear. He's the best ever. What he's doing in this low scoring era is simply amazing. 

Funny enough, Bure's era was the lowest scoring era in the modern NHL.  The clutch and grab, "dead puck" era.  Yet Bure's numbers as goals per game is very similar to OV's.

I think Bure is still the better goal scorer, but OV has the physical part of his game that Bure didn't have the size for.  That's what Gino was for

[WHL rocks]

22 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Funny enough, Bure's era was the lowest scoring era in the modern NHL.  The clutch and grab, "dead puck" era.  Yet Bure's numbers as goals per game is very similar to OV's.

I think Bure is still the better goal scorer, but OV has the physical part of his game that Bure didn't have the size for.  That's what Gino was for

 era adjusted peak 3 season goal scoring is Bure 148 while OV 164. Close but only Bret Hull is higher than OV with 172. Gretzky and OV are tied with 164 each. 

All time era adjusted OV will be number 1 by the time he's done. Gretzky has 644 OV already had 483 as of 1 month ago.

Selanne is a close 2nd to Gretzky with 634. Imagine that, 11 more goals Selanne would be GOAT of all time. 

Before he retires OV needs around 150 to 160 or so goals to be #1. I think he'll easily get that.  

[HKSR]

52 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

 era adjusted peak 3 season goal scoring is Bure 148 while OV 164. Close but only Bret Hull is higher than OV with 172. Gretzky and OV are tied with 164 each. 

All time era adjusted OV will be number 1 by the time he's done. Gretzky has 644 OV already had 483 as of 1 month ago.

Selanne is a close 2nd to Gretzky with 634. Imagine that, 11 more goals Selanne would be GOAT of all time. 

Before he retires OV needs around 150 to 160 or so goals to be #1. I think he'll easily get that.  

Oh I was just going by average goals per game per team, where Bure played most of his career.  The average then was much lower than it is now.

[WHL rocks]

1 minute ago, HKSR said:

Oh I was just going by average goals per game per team, where Bure played most of his career.  The average then was much lower than it is now.

that's what era adjusted means. Average goals for different eras and the goals scored by a particular player.

The stats I posted are exactly what you're talking about. Not only the era but they're adjusted for every season. OV will be the best by the time he's done. 

Bure was good too, he's up there but not OV kind of up there. 

[HKSR]

41 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

that's what era adjusted means. Average goals for different eras and the goals scored by a particular player.

The stats I posted are exactly what you're talking about. Not only the era but they're adjusted for every season. OV will be the best by the time he's done. 

Bure was good too, he's up there but not OV kind of up there. 

Does it take into account a player's goals per game average?  Or just career goal totals?

Reason I ask is cuz Bure missed a LOT more games than OV.  I'd be curious what it would look like if they all averaged 80 games per season.

[WHL rocks]

34 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Does it take into account a player's goals per game average?  Or just career goal totals?

Reason I ask is cuz Bure missed a LOT more games than OV.  I'd be curious what it would look like if they all averaged 80 games per season.

I think it's better you do some research on your own. You'll get a better understanding by reading multiple articles. Just use Google to find and read articles. The more the better. 

Basically all I can tell you is OV will be the best when he retires. Right now Gretzky is best and Teemu Selanne is 2nd best. 

Hull was the best with 1 year most goals era adjusted. OV won't be able to beat that record as he's past prime and won't score 65 or 70 goals in a season now. 

 

 

 

[HKSR]

28 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

I think it's better you do some research on your own. You'll get a better understanding by reading multiple articles. Just use Google to find and read articles. The more the better. 

Basically all I can tell you is OV will be the best when he retires. Right now Gretzky is best and Teemu Selanne is 2nd best. 

Hull was the best with 1 year most goals era adjusted. OV won't be able to beat that record as he's past prime and won't score 65 or 70 goals in a season now. 

 

 

 

Done.  I can post up my spreadsheet and calcs if you want, but I can verify OV's peak 3 season and Bure's peak 3 season numbers.

What I can also determine is that normalizing each season to 80 games played (excluding 1996-97, and 1998-99 for Bure because he played 15 games or less those seasons and would totally skew the numbers in his favour ... ie. 13 goals in 11 games in 1998-99 lol), and era adjusting, I have the following:

OV:  480.24 goals in 800 games played from 2005 to 2015 = 0.6003 Goals Per Game Average

Bure:  435.92 goals in 800 games played from 1991 to 2003 = 0.5449 Goals Per Game Average

OV:  Peak 3 Seasons with normalization to 80 games per season = 164.72 Goals

Bure:  Peak 3 Seasons with normalization to 80 games per season = 171.97 Goals

Bure's 3 peak seasons wins, but OV wins in terms of goals/game.

[WHL rocks]

24 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Done.  I can post up my spreadsheet and calcs if you want, but I can verify OV's peak 3 season and Bure's peak 3 season numbers.

What I can also determine is that normalizing each season to 80 games played (excluding 1996-97, and 1998-99 for Bure because he played 15 games or less those seasons and would totally skew the numbers in his favour ... ie. 13 goals in 11 games in 1998-99 lol), and era adjusting, I have the following:

OV:  480.24 goals in 800 games played from 2005 to 2015 = 0.6003 Goals Per Game Average

Bure:  435.92 goals in 800 games played from 1991 to 2003 = 0.5449 Goals Per Game Average

OV:  Peak 3 Seasons with normalization to 80 games per season = 164.72 Goals

Bure:  Peak 3 Seasons with normalization to 80 games per season = 171.97 Goals

Bure's 3 peak seasons wins, but OV wins in terms of goals/game.

OK, if that works for you fine by me.

The numbers I gave you were from NHL.com not manipulated by me to favour my position in this discussion. 

https://www.nhl.com/news/analytics-say-ovechkin-one-of-top-goal-scorers-ever/c-796548

I remember the day Bure came over from Russia, best thing to happen to the Canucks in their history. If' he's the GOAT no one's happier than me.

 

 

 

[Fozzy]

One of my favourite players in the league. I hope he wins a cup soon.

 

[HKSR]

5 minutes ago, WHL rocks said:

OK, if that works for you fine by me.

The numbers I gave you were from NHL.com not manipulated by me to favour my position in this discussion. 

https://www.nhl.com/news/analytics-say-ovechkin-one-of-top-goal-scorers-ever/c-796548

I remember the day Bure came over from Russia, best thing to happen to the Canucks in their history. If' he's the GOAT no one's happier than me.

 

 

 

Nah, not saying he is or isn't.  Just was curious myself. 

OV is clearly more consistent.  Bure had 3 seasons in that mix that were hovering around the 30 goal mark.  OV had only 1 season around 30 goals.

I just ran the numbers for Mario's first 10 seasons in the league:

498.32 Goals in 800 Games = 0.6229 Goals Per Game Average

Peak 3 Seasons = 201.99

Mario is something else altogether. 

I'll check Gretzky, Hull, and Bossy later lol.

[HKSR]

Ok, I ran all the numbers for Gretzky, Hull, Bossy, OV, Bure, and Lemieux.  The results are surprising.

Peak 3 Seasons Totals Adjusted to 80 Games Per Season:

1. Lemieux - 201.99

2. Hull - 175.78

3. Bure - 171.97

4. Gretzky - 171.16

5. OV - 164.72

6. Bossy - 144.20

Average Goals per Game:

1. Lemieux - 0.6229

2. OV - 0.6003

3. Hull - 0.5719

4. Gretzky - 0.5595

5. Bure - 0.5449

6. Bossy - 0.5289

Now keep in mind, these numbers are based on the first 10 seasons in the league for each player.  For Hull, I started with his first season in St. Louis.  For Bure and Lemieux, I took the first 12 seasons, and subtracted 2 seasons each because their game totals were under 25 games.

Based on these numbers, I'd argue that Lemieux is the greatest goal scorer of all-time.

I took all the averages from here:  http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

I took all player stats from HockeyDB.

[Neko]

I grew up watching Mike Bossy and I was a big fan of him, but in no way is he the best pure scorer- he was with an inflated Islanders.  Bure would be more of a pure goal scorer than Bossy.

Lemieux had raw talent and had it all in one package, he, Jagr and Kevin Stevens together was amazing to watch.

As already mentioned, Ovie brings more to the table than scoring goals, some seasons he leads the league in hits and has some good defensive traits but there are better defensive forwards than Ovie.