There's an outstanding warrant out for a Benning... Jim

[UFCanuck]

On 12/7/2017 at 11:01 PM, Smashian Kassian said:

Jim Benning's Gudbranson trade mistake is no more evident than right now. Maybe if they had Jarred McCann this not having Horvat situation wouldn't look so bad and they wouldn't need to trade for a guy like Dowd.

 

Meanwhile Gudbranson is being questioned as to whether he should even come back into the lineup when healthy with the way the other guys have played.

 

For a team in this situation where they are rebuilding, led by young players, and need every guy to win in order to have a shot at playoffs. It would certainly be better to have McCann right now. I know having the beauty of hindsight is great but it does seem like a crippling mistake. 

Ask Florida how much the like that trade. Terrible trade for them by a bad GM.

[oldnews]

1 hour ago, playboi19 said:

Ask Florida how much the like that trade. Terrible trade for them by a bad GM.

but we coulda had McCann's 2 points these past 10 games....(if we could provide him with those 58% ozone starts).

 

just imagine where we'd be with McCann, though - there'd be no need to miss Horvat or Sutter.

[Smashian Kassian]

13 hours ago, oldnews said:

You're making some odd claims with no basi

First, that it "hasn't worked out here is a downright bizarre claim, injuries aside, and I highly doubt management or the coaching staff agrees with you there or are ready to deal him on a strange basis like the one you narrate.

You also offer nothing to qualify the claim that he doesn't look worth what they dealt to acquire him - B-otch and the odd Yost might agree with you, if you think their perspectives are worth the paper they're scribbled on.

If Gudbranson weren't just emerging and entering his prime, you might have a point - but your take on a missing piece for a contending team should be saved for 30+ year olds like Edler.

None of that really stands up where Gudbranson is concerned.- it sounds like you're trying too hard to talk yourself into something without any real grounding to it.

3

How is it bizarre? He hasn't been the player everyone hoped he would be. Injuries are definitely in part the reason, but when he's been in the lineup there's been some inconsistency aswell. And now he's a pending UFA and do you think the Canucks are going to sign him to a big money+long term extension is the question?

 

The grounding is simple, Gudbranson's contract status is making this a risky situation considering where this team is at in the rebuild & what was given up to acquire him.

 

I don't doubt that Gudbranson could be a good/useful player in the right situation. But when you consider the commitment it would require by this team to keep him here beyond this season, I'm not so sure its here. Or for that matter if he would want to return versus testing the market. That's something to consider aswell.  

 

Hopefully they can get a 1st round pick back at some point in the year here and recoup some of that value but we will see. 

 

[Smashian Kassian]

1 hour ago, playboi19 said:

Ask Florida how much the like that trade. Terrible trade for them by a bad GM.

The reports are that Tallon didn't like it and wants him back. That's totally true, and understandable, I don't think Gudbranson is a terrible player at all. But I also don't know if they would trade McCann (+2nd?) to get him back though.

[oldnews]

16 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

He was really the key piece we ended up getting back for Kesler

Nonsense.

Bonino was the principle - the key piece - and he turned into Sutter.  McCann was a late 1st and hasn't proven a thing yet.  At this point, Sbisa playing top pairing minutes in Vegas is also more important to his lineup than McCann.  You'll have to wait a lot longer to hindsight this deal - at this stage, trying to peddle McCann's importance due to a pair of injuries to Sutter and Horvat is really short term and cherrypicked thinking.

No one in their right mind considers Sutter less important to this franchise than that pick.

 

16 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Maybe if they had Jarred McCann this not having Horvat situation wouldn't look so bad and they wouldn't need to trade for a guy like Dowd.

This is also nonsense.

McCann simply cannot fill either the shoes of Sutter or Horvat - nor is Dowd expected to.  You're really angling off on weak tangents.

 

And the bottom line:

this team has Horvat and Petttersson as top 6 C of their future.

they have guys like Sutter and Gaunce as shutdown centers, Sutter being elite in that capacity and Gaunce looking like an outstanding young shutdown center himself.

 

Add to the mix guys like Gaudette and how hard up exactly is this team for a player like McCann.  I personally would not swap Gaudette for him, one for one at this point.

 

This team will be fine without McCann. 

 

Gudbranson is the far rarer asset - more important to this team and we did  not give up Taylor Hall for him.    Save the nervous-nellying for February, March, April....

[oldnews]

49 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Hopefully they can get a 1st round pick back at some point in the year here and recoup some of that value but we will see. 

 

Nah - hopefully they simply re-sign him.

And if they don't, like I've said elsewhere, he has no limiting clauses, and they have the option of allowing any team interested to speak with him and his agent regarding his willingness to re-sign with them (not unlike when we acquired Sutter, who was expiring and promptly re-upped), so the concerns about not being able to recoup a late 1st are premature at best.

[Smashian Kassian]

 

11 hours ago, oldnews said:

Nah - hopefully they simply re-sign him.

And if they don't, like I've said elsewhere, he has no limiting clauses, and they have the option of allowing any team interested to speak with him and his agent regarding his willingness to re-sign with them (not unlike when we acquired Sutter, who was expiring and promptly re-upped), so the concerns about not being able to recoup a late 1st are premature at best.

 

Im kinda 50/50 on that myself. If you look historically that top 4 D usually can command a good return, but I also wonder how all the time he has missed could affect his value. 

 

I wouldn't be totally against re-signing him, but then they might have to end up moving someone else. It will be interesting to see what happens with his situation. Either way, the point is that this team can't afford to end up with nothing/very little for Gudbranson, IMO. 

 

 

 

 

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

How is it bizarre? He hasn't been the player everyone hoped he would be. Injuries are definitely in part the reason, but when he's been in the lineup there's been some inconsistency aswell. And now he's a pending UFA and do you think the Canucks are going to sign him to a big money+long term extension is the question?

 

The grounding is simple, Gudbranson's contract status is making this a risky situation considering where this team is at in the rebuild & what was given up to acquire him.

 

I don't doubt that Gudbranson could be a good/useful player in the right situation. But when you consider the commitment it would require by this team to keep him here beyond this season, I'm not so sure its here. Or for that matter if he would want to return versus testing the market. That's something to consider aswell.  

 

Hopefully they can get a 1st round pick back at some point in the year here and recoup some of that value but we will see. 

 

Benning might be wise to cut ties and try and trade him to a team that really wants to make a run at hard defenseman with size and some intangibles...maybe he can squeeze some lemonade out and we can be talking about who he fleeced our of he deal a year or two for now, rather than overpaying or watching him leave for nothing this summer.  If he's healthy some teams would be interested in him come playoff time ( including us?)

[oldnews]

8 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

 

Im kinda 50/50 on that myself. If you look historically that top 4 D usually can command a good return, but I also wonder how all the time he has missed could affect his value. 

 

I wouldn't be totally against re-signing him, but then they might have to end up moving someone else. It will be interesting to see what happens with his situation. Either way, the point is that this team can't afford to end up with nothing/very little for Gudbranson, IMO.

 

His injuries don't help, that is true, but they also don't serve as leverage for him in re-signing.

I think it's clear they'll be moving someone - but I think that someone will be someone else.  I think there are a number of contingencies/factors - but I think it will be between Edler and Hutton, for a number of reasons - and I have very little concern about getting nothing/very little for Gudbranson - I don't think that anxiety is called for.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

21 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

How is it bizarre? He hasn't been the player everyone hoped he would be. Injuries are definitely in part the reason, but when he's been in the lineup there's been some inconsistency aswell. And now he's a pending UFA and do you think the Canucks are going to sign him to a big money+long term extension is the question?

 

The grounding is simple, Gudbranson's contract status is making this a risky situation considering where this team is at in the rebuild & what was given up to acquire him.

 

I don't doubt that Gudbranson could be a good/useful player in the right situation. But when you consider the commitment it would require by this team to keep him here beyond this season, I'm not so sure its here. Or for that matter if he would want to return versus testing the market. That's something to consider aswell.  

 

Hopefully they can get a 1st round pick back at some point in the year here and recoup some of that value but we will see. 

 

I 100% agree with this, when we acquired Guddy, the Canucks likely assumed Guddy would continue to progress off his stellar playoffs and then we'd be confident in locking him up long term to become a foundational core block piece for us.  Now it's been a year and a half since we've got him and we aren't any more confident in his play today then we were when we traded for him.  That is largely on injuries, which prevented us from seeing any real progression or consistency so it's really hard to judge.  That doesn't mean it's not something we can't expect from him but it's not 100% a lock it happens either, a long term contract could be a bit risky and he's not likely interested in another bridge deal, trading him could also be risky, so it's not the easiest task JB has, and he's got less than 3 months to figure it out.

 

In the end I expect him to be resigned, I'm just hoping the term and value are low enough to reduce the risk, something that's hard to negotiate in a short timeframe when the player has a bunch of leverage.  

[Rob_Zepp]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:58 AM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I 100% agree with this, when we acquired Guddy, the Canucks likely assumed Guddy would continue to progress off his stellar playoffs and then we'd be confident in locking him up long term to become a foundational core block piece for us.  Now it's been a year and a half since we've got him and we aren't any more confident in his play today then we were when we traded for him.  That is largely on injuries, which prevented us from seeing any real progression or consistency so it's really hard to judge.  That doesn't mean it's not something we can't expect from him but it's not 100% a lock it happens either, a long term contract could be a bit risky and he's not likely interested in another bridge deal, trading him could also be risky, so it's not the easiest task JB has, and he's got less than 3 months to figure it out.

 

In the end I expect him to be resigned, I'm just hoping the term and value are low enough to reduce the risk, something that's hard to negotiate in a short timeframe when the player has a bunch of leverage.  

100% disagree with this.   Guddy has played huge minutes, has second best d-stats to Tanev and is a force that teams respect when he is in the lineup.   He has played very well this year and it isn't a surprise the Canucks GAA and SV% are both far better with him in the lineup than vice versa.   

 

The second you don't have a 6'5" mobile Dman who plays with an edge, you start looking for one.   

[ForsbergTheGreat]

23 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

100% disagree with this.   Guddy has played huge minutes, has second best d-stats to Tanev and is a force that teams respect when he is in the lineup.   He has played very well this year and it isn't a surprise the Canucks GAA and SV% are both far better with him in the lineup than vice versa.   

 

The second you don't have a 6'5" mobile Dman who plays with an edge, you start looking for one.   

So after 30 games last year where Canucks weren't confident enough to give him a long term extension, do you think his play this year, in these 21 games has warranted it? 

 

I haven't seen it this year, i've seen very inconsistent play with a step back on offensive production.  For a guy (and the GM) who said he had a lot to prove to Canucks fans this year after a rough start last year, I haven't seen it.  And as a result his ice time this year has taken a dip.  I'm not saying he's a terrible D because he's not, he's proven to a capable NHL D but just a capable D isn't what we traded for, we were expecting more, we were expecting the Guddy that lead his team in ice, commanding 26+ (including OT) minutes in the playoffs for the panthers.  That defence we could justify locking up long term, but we haven't seen that consistently, we've only seen glimpses. And that's exactly why JB signed him to a one year prove it to me extension last year.  

[oldnews]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:58 AM, ForsbergTheGreat said:

we aren't any more confident in his play today then we were when we traded for him.

who is the "we" you speak for?

 

classic Forsberg pretentiousness, attempting to speak for more than himself.

 

Lots of reasons to be confident in Gudbranson at the point he was acquired, and today - so your claim is moot in any event. 

[Rob_Zepp]

39 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

So after 30 games last year where Canucks weren't confident enough to give him a long term extension, do you think his play this year, in these 21 games has warranted it? 

 

I haven't seen it this year, i've seen very inconsistent play with a step back on offensive production.  For a guy (and the GM) who said he had a lot to prove to Canucks fans this year after a rough start last year, I haven't seen it.  And as a result his ice time this year has taken a dip.  I'm not saying he's a terrible D because he's not, he's proven to a capable NHL D but just a capable D isn't what we traded for, we were expecting more, we were expecting the Guddy that lead his team in ice, commanding 26+ (including OT) minutes in the playoffs for the panthers.  That defence we could justify locking up long term, but we haven't seen that consistently, we've only seen glimpses. And that's exactly why JB signed him to a one year prove it to me extension last year.  

Taken a dip?   Yes, he has played a lot less while injured.   Once he is back, he will play more.   In fact, he is averaging zero minutes over past few games.   That is kinda how injuries work.    

 

As far as "we", are you speaking for your friend?   Your dog?   Someone who is simply agreeing with you?    Why not ask someone who follows the Panthers closely (e.g. me) who will confirm the outstanding Guddy you have seen so far this is equal/better to the one that Florida misses so dearly and why, just like the Canucks over past few games, the Panthers have struggled in their own zone without him.

 

Canucks are likely VERY happy with Guddy as most informed fans certainly are.   He is everything they expected from the big guy and, again, as the statistics show how much better the Canucks are defensively with him in the line up, the team is hoping he is back really soon.   The team as in "that we" versus you and whoever it is you are referring to as "we".   

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Taken a dip?   Yes, he has played a lot less while injured.   Once he is back, he will play more.   In fact, he is averaging zero minutes over past few games.   That is kinda how injuries work.    

 

Average ice time per game there champ.  This is his second lowest time on the ice per game in his NHL career, only his 20 year old rookie season did he play less.

 

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

As far as "we", are you speaking for your friend?   Your dog?   Someone who is simply agreeing with you?   

 

How about are GM and gudbranson him self. 

 

"Erik is a big, strong physical defender who I know feels has a lot to prove and has worked diligently in his injury rehab," said General Manager Jim Benning.

 

or Gudbranson himself

 

“I have something to prove,” he said last spring. “I want to be here more than anything. Above that, I want to prove to the city and the team that I can be a good influence on this group.”

 

Bolded words are in "future" tense, as in "still to come". Nothing said on either party is in being being completely satisfied with how things have gone so far.  

 

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Why not ask someone who follows the Panthers closely (e.g. me)

And that's supposed to mean something?

 

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

who will confirm the outstanding Guddy you have seen so far this is equal/better to the one that Florida misses so dearly and why, just like the Canucks over past few games, the Panthers have struggled in their own zone without him.

yeah it's all on Gudbranson, nothing to do with losing Mitchell, Campbell and Kulikov at the same time.  Again i'm not saying Gudbranson isn't a NHL player, but he hasn't been as what was advertised.  He hasn't been close to the like the player he was at the end of the 2015-16 season, and yes injuries will do that but we are yet to see that on basis that would justifying paying him a long term deal, which is the main point of my argument.  

 

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Canucks are likely VERY happy with Guddy as most informed fans certainly are.   

Are they? That's why the considered moving him back to FLA this summer?  That's why we only signed him to a one year deal?

 

11 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

He is everything they expected from the big guy and, again, as the statistics show how much better the Canucks are defensively with him in the line up, the team is hoping he is back really soon.   The team as in "that we" versus you and whoever it is you are referring to as "we".   

Hutton hasn't been very good this year, i think the team would benefit taking him out and inserting gudbranson, but that doesn't mean Gudbranson all of the sudden should be handed the keys to the city. Canucks were also a better team when we had Booth in the line up vrs him being injured and forcing up to play Welsh, the point you are making doesn't mean a whole lot. 

 

47 minutes ago, oldnews said:

who is the "we" you speak for?

 

classic Forsberg pretentiousness, attempting to speak for more than himself.

 

Lots of reasons to be confident in Gudbranson at the point he was acquired, and today - so your claim is moot in any event. 

Yes so confident that all he got was a one year show me deal at 3.5.  Simple logic, All you have to do is ask yourself, how come JB didn't lock him up longer when he was a RFA and we had negotiating power.  I mean if Canucks were so confident in the guy, why risk a one year deal that awards him UFA status?  Please explain that before you go off on your random tangents. 

 

You two think i'm attempting to speak for others?  I'm just stating what has been said to the public by both parties, what other information can we go off, do you know something everyone else doesn't?  

Who do you two speak for? JB? At this point we don't know how the situation will goes and pretending like you do is just BS.  JB could end up trading Guddy, he could sign guddy to another low cap, shorter term deal and then everything I just stated would be proven true.  So who are you arguing for?  

 

 

[Rob_Zepp]

4 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Average ice time per game there champ.  This is his second lowest time on the ice per game in his NHL career, only his 20 year old rookie season did he play less.

 

How about are GM and gudbranson him self. 

 

"Erik is a big, strong physical defender who I know feels has a lot to prove and has worked diligently in his injury rehab," said General Manager Jim Benning.

 

or Gudbranson himself

 

“I have something to prove,” he said last spring. “I want to be here more than anything. Above that, I want to prove to the city and the team that I can be a good influence on this group.”

 

Bolded words are in "future" tense, as in "still to come". Nothing said on either party is in being being completely satisfied with how things have gone so far.  

 

And that's supposed to mean something?

 

yeah it's all on Gudbranson, nothing to do with losing Mitchell, Campbell and Kulikov at the same time.  Again i'm not saying Gudbranson isn't a NHL player, but he hasn't been as what was advertised.  He hasn't been close to the like the player he was at the end of the 2015-16 season, and yes injuries will do that but we are yet to see that on basis that would justifying paying him a long term deal, which is the main point of my argument.  

 

Are they? That's why the considered moving him back to FLA this summer?  That's why we only signed him to a one year deal?

 

Hutton hasn't been very good this year, i think the team would benefit taking him out and inserting gudbranson, but that doesn't mean Gudbranson all of the sudden should be handed the keys to the city. Canucks were also a better team when we had Booth in the line up vrs him being injured and forcing up to play Welsh, the point you are making doesn't mean a whole lot. 

 

Yes so confident that all he got was a one year show me deal at 3.5.  Simple logic, All you have to do is ask yourself, how come JB didn't lock him up longer when he was a RFA and we had negotiating power.  I mean if Canucks were so confident in the guy, why risk a one year deal that awards him UFA status?  Please explain that before you go off on your random tangents. 

 

You two think i'm attempting to speak for others?  I'm just stating what has been said to the public by both parties, what other information can we go off, do you know something everyone else doesn't?  

Who do you two speak for? JB? At this point we don't know how the situation will goes and pretending like you do is just BS.  JB could end up trading Guddy, he could sign guddy to another low cap, shorter term deal and then everything I just stated would be proven true.  So who are you arguing for?  

 

 

[aGENT]

11 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Average ice time per game there champ.  This is his second lowest time on the ice per game in his NHL career, only his 20 year old rookie season did he play less.

Injury, PIMS and Game misconduct. 

 

When those things aren't interfering with his ice time, he's been logging pretty much 18-23 minutes the vast majority of nights.

 

We also have basically three 2nd pairs with far more even ice time distribution than is the 'norm'.

 

Context.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Injury, PIMS and Game misconduct. 

When those things aren't interfering with his ice time, he's been logging pretty much 18-23 minutes the vast majority of nights.

I didn't know these things are all conditional to Guddy in the 2017 season only.  

 

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We also have basically three 2nd pairs with far more even ice time distribution than is the 'norm'.

 

Exactly.  Canucks do have better depth this year which has dropped his ice time, but he currently sits 5th on the team among D.   That actually goes against overpaying him with term.

 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

34 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

 

Nice rebuttal... I'll take that as you throwing in the white flag.  Hey at least it's better than the ON reply of calling straw or pretending that he didn't read it.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I didn't know these things are all conditional to Guddy in the 2017 season only.  

 

 

Exactly.  Canucks do have better depth this year which has dropped his ice time, but he currently sits 5th on the team among D.   That actually goes against overpaying him with term.

 

 

Given the small sample size of 21 games so far this season and that he played 1:15 in the BOS game (misconduct) 17:06 in WSH (fighting), and 9:46 in PIT (injured), yeah, I'd say they've had a larger than 'normal' effect on hi ATOI. Add another 40-50'ish games of 18-22 minutes and that ATOI goes up shockingly.

 

It's also one of the reasons he's '5th' on the Canucks.

 

His ATOI is only another thing for people to take out of context to suit a narrative.