Ed Willes: Canucks' Linden revamp left in the dust by Leafs' Shana-plan

[TheGuardian_]

10 minutes ago, Solinar said:

Personally, I hold Gillis accountable for a poor drafting record.   Doing well puts you lower down in the draft, which makes a late first the equivalent of an early 2nd, and you go from there.  So it is like never having a first, but you do have all your other picks, per se.  To barely get any dividends out of that is still terrible.  I believe Weber was a 2nd round pick, as was Josi.  Subban was a 3rd round pick.  Don't tell me you can't get people below the first round in the top 15...Well, unless you're Edmonton

The danger of selecting individual players as those missed by the Canucks ventures into so much "what if" territory in later rounds as to be true of all the teams except with the top 10 picks, then comparisons are legitimate as only a few teams missed or were wrong.

 

13 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Last year your Bodog boys had Edmonton winning the Stanley Cup. 

 

Just sayin'

 

You're believing in a fool's game.

I did qualify that post with "at this time" but the jist is correct, they don't "imagine" these odds based on who they don't like and regardless of the selection being TO winning the cup, most "experts" are right at least 90% of the time as far as good vs bad teams. You are much too onesided in your steadfast belief that the Canucks are the best run team in the league, you really should take into account their years of running the team, it isn't like the last 4 years don't exist, "It is all Gillis 's fault" and the intervening years are nothing. "Next year" sounds great the first 4 times or so but at some point even the staunches fan will recognize "not good".

 

1 minute ago, Solinar said:

I understand where people are coming from.  Vancouver is the suck, and Toronto is now the toast of the east and contenders for the cup.  For the first time in over 50 years of rebuilding, they can finally say they have a team that should be sipping from Lord Stanley's cup, and they'll have done it faster than any other canadian team since 93.  Good on them.  They had a plan, told everyone what it was, held to it, and have stuck the landing....so far.  It was bold, it was thorough, it still hasn't garnered the desired results.  Doesn't mean it won't, doesn't mean it will.

Nobody will believe that I posted in 2011 that TO would be the next Canadian team to win the cup, but it is out there somewhere. At the time I was being a little cynical because Bettman was calling TO, Canada's team, grouping all the teams in Canada as one and TO was his selection. Man it burns me that it might be the case. Tin hat stuff. I also figured that money talks and as a result of  5 billion a teams from Canada would be a cup winner or  finalist within 5 years, again being cynical, tin hat stuff.

 

As I pointed out, for some fans any comment other than "Yaaaa" is trolling and are haters, but refusing to see the train coming doesn't stop it.

 

Nobody gets better is the status quo is okay, why bother?

[stawns]

3 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The danger of selecting individual players as those missed by the Canucks ventures into so much "what if" territory in later rounds as to be true of all the teams except with the top 10 picks, then comparisons are legitimate as only a few teams missed or were wrong.

 

I did qualify that post with "at this time" but the jist is correct, they don't "imagine" these odds based on who they don't like and regardless of the selection being TO winning the cup, most "experts" are right at least 90% of the time as far as good vs bad teams. You are much too onesided in your steadfast belief that the Canucks are the best run team in the league, you really should take into account their years of running the team, it isn't like the last 4 years don't exist, "It is all Gillis 's fault" and the intervening years are nothing. "Next year" sounds great the first 4 times or so but at some point even the staunches fan will recognize "not good".

 

Nobody will believe that I posted in 2011 that TO would be the next Canadian team to win the cup, but it is out there somewhere. At the time I was being a little cynical because Bettman was calling TO, Canada's team, grouping all the teams in Canada as one and TO was his selection. Man it burns me that it might be the case. Tin hat stuff. I also figured that money talks and as a result of  5 billion a teams from Canada would be a cup winner or  finalist within 5 years, again being cynical, tin hat stuff.

 

As I pointed out, for some fans any comment other than "Yaaaa" is trolling and are haters, but refusing to see the train coming doesn't stop it.

 

Nobody gets better is the status quo is okay, why bother?

The Jets have a far, far better chance of winning than TML do, imo.  If the Leafs can't upgrade their defense, then it's going to be a lot of early exits until they have to blow it up due to cap issues

[oldnews]

4 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I did qualify that post with "at this time" but the jist is correct, they don't "imagine" these odds based on who they don't like and regardless of the selection being TO winning the cup, most "experts" are right at least 90% of the time as far as good vs bad teams. You are much too onesided in your steadfast belief that the Canucks are the best run team in the league, you really should take into account their years of running the team, it isn't like the last 4 years don't exist, "It is all Gillis 's fault" and the intervening years are nothing. "Next year" sounds great the first 4 times or so but at some point even the staunches fan will recognize "not good".

 

Um, what?

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I was in Montreal a few days ago, thank god for AC.

 

Comparing any team to the Canucks should be okay after all that is what league standings do and in this case pertinent for the timeline, that it is hated TO showing Vancouver up ratchets up the comparisons. Is Vancouver not as good as TO? This is what makes the rivalry intense, to see them, of all teams, STATE a plan and keep to it and have it work.

 

Really how hard would it have been to hire the best GM available? Offer enough money, how hard to hire the best coach available? Yes I know everyone hated Torts and crucified him for saying exactly the same thing Benning/Linden said a month later that they were hailed as experts for stating.

 

Holding off trading the Sedins and rebuilding because it would be unfair to them might be nice, but now the team is essentially 4 years behind if they are rebuilding, they have 28 draft picks and Gillis's off the board pick via a bold trade is the very best they have, 5 years ago.

 

But at this point they have to keep near the bottom and draft in the top 7 for the next 2/3 drafts.

 

You know what will be really maddening will be when they revamp the draft rules back to the McDavid rules, the statement will be that the "old" rules were not helping the teams that needed the help the most. Of course by then it will be LA, Anahiem, Nashville, Minny, that need the help the most. Maybe the Nucks get one year in that "new" system but that is not their luck.

 

Why? TO only needed 3 top 10 picks to turn their entire team around. We've already done that so our rebuild must be complete too. Because, you know, both teams were starting from the same place in 2014......

[oldnews]

Wadr to the 'experts' - top 4 D are every bit as, if not more important, than 4 forwards.....

 

Hedman

McDonagh

Stralman

Sergachev

 

Josi

Subban

Ellis

Ekholm

 

Byfuglien

Trouba

Morrisey

Myers

 

Reilly

Gardiner

Hainsey

Zaitsev

[Gaudette Celly]

3 hours ago, spook007 said:

To be honest, I doubt it...I only see whats posted through CDC, and they all seem to say that everywhere else the grass is greener...

Probably not...

The Leafs certainly had their brown bag years, and media wasn't necessarily kind but I don't recall seeing what we see of their coverage of the Canucks right from when they started falling in 2012.  They were so very eager to start jumping all over them and running them down, as if they'd been gritting their teeth the past decade at their success.  Nothing was more proof positive than after this draft, where instead of talking about how Benning got exactly what the Canucks needed in a PMD with Hughes falling to them, some TSN adolescents giggled like schoolgirls mocking his dye-job.  Top-notch sporting coverage.

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

The Jets have a far, far better chance of winning than TML do, imo.  If the Leafs can't upgrade their defense, then it's going to be a lot of early exits until they have to blow it up due to cap issues

Both could make the final, west vs east, Bettman's nightmare for ratings in the states.

 

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

Um, what?

 

 

[TheGuardian_]

2 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Why? TO only needed 3 top 10 picks to turn their entire team around. We've already done that so our rebuild must be complete too. Because, you know, both teams were starting from the same place in 2014...…

Not true, Vancouver was ahead of them.

[189lb enforcers?]

TO is still a young team coming into its own.

That rebuild is still happening.

Their D is slowly emerging and it should align for a nice long era for that club as they mature together under St Patty’s mentoring.

Tavares was free. He will take the pressure off of AM and the next few years should be fun to watch their power play, same with the Coilers if they can ever get their $&!# together. 

Calgary is loading up and good on them, they’re due.

Montreal is the Flamers from a few years back. They’re a disaster waiting to happen. 

Ottawa will have to have a heart transplant.

Winterpeg is awesome, but it will be a short-lived peak. 

Vancouver is finally moving on from the Sedins and rebuilding a team identity. Benning seems to hire character players. 

[Gaudette Celly]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

Why? TO only needed 3 top 10 picks to turn their entire team around. We've already done that so our rebuild must be complete too. Because, you know, both teams were starting from the same place in 2014......

Gotta tank until we have 23 top-3 picks.

...then continue on until all of Utica has the same.  Then Kalamazoo, just in case.

 

It won't end, because it's a loser mentality based on failure and consolation "prizes".

[oldnews]

3 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

most "experts" are right at least 90% of the time

 

 

[Baggins]

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

Not true Vancouver was ahead of them.

Nice to see you finally revealed your identity behind your user name....

 

1 minute ago, TheGuardian_ said:

 

 

 

 

[Gaudette Celly]

1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

That rebuild is still happening.

Their D is slowly emerging

Evidently you've never taken a look at their prospect pool.

[Solinar]

  Toronto's d isn't terrible, per se.  A little disjointed with the need for 1 or 2 quality guys.  I believe it is more of a synergy problem than not.  You need a guy to play with Reilly, and a guy to play with Gardiner.  They both aren't the real deal, but with the right complimentary pieces, that d-core could show better than it has.  Would love it if we had 2 50pt guys on our backend.  Tanev with Gardiner, and Karlsson with Reilly...man that would be an extremely terrifying top 4.  You could probably put 2 pilons out as your 3rd pairing and get away with it because they'd only be on the ice for 8 mins.

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Evidently you've never taken a look at their prospect pool.

Why do you think that?

The Marlies are in great shape and there are several good young prospects coming up from elsewhere soon as well. You aren’t suggesting that their farm is inadequate, are you?

I thought the Leafs had a great draft this year, which ON will somehow equate to Leaf-fluffing. 

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

Nice to see you finally revealed your identity behind your user name....

 

 

That is the best comment you have?

1 minute ago, Hutton Wink said:

Evidently you've never taken a look at their prospect pool.

Prospect pools are somewhat variable, if the team picks good and that player makes the team, then the pool is not as good, if a team never plays the picks then the pool is deep and considered good. Another question is  how long is a prospect, a prospect?

TO was winning in the AHL for along time but the NHL team wasn't, Dallas has had winning teams in the AHL but not so much luck in the NHL even the Canucks had very good AHL teams but most of those players didn't make the show.

 

IMO Tanev on either TO or the Oilers makes a 10 point difference and adds playoff experience. At 28/29 he should command top level offers if this management group deals him, ditto with Edler.

 

[oldnews]

28 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

 

That rebuild is still happening.

 

That is laughable.

 

The rebuild is done!   Inevitable dynasty!

The rebuild is still happening!

The rebuild is done!

The rebuild is still happening!

 

"Mr Critical".... kindly explain how:

 

2nd round picks on old rentals

repeated mass expenditures in free agency.

first round exits - 'blown' draft position - the dreaded abyss of 'mediocrity' determined draft position....

 

these things spell 'the rebuild is still happening!"

The cookie cutter example of the tank and stockpile 'rebuild' - the Leafs #proper-rebuild.....is still somehow happening.

 

your definition of a 'rebuild' is what again?

 

The Leafs are still stockpiling all tha pickz?

The Leafs are building through the draft?

 

The rebuild is still happening lol.

 

The word rebuild is a laughably, constantly moving set of goal posts.

 

I'd love to hear someone accurately track the 'rebuild' under Shanaplan, and attempt to argue 'rebuild consistency'.   What a joke.

 

 

 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

He is not in the minority, realistically Vancouver is no where near TO, Vegas already has NYR, NYI, Arizona, Sens all tanking for Hughes, but the Nucks are still in the chase.

Again play the projection game. Until both teams play games against each other this is all conjecture. 

 

No one is denying that the Canucks aren't in a transitional phase. Some fans just get tired of the constant negativity, of which you are a major contributor. I support the team and have a realistic vision of where they're at. 

Quote

The result of the fanbase openly expressing discontent was that the team cleaned house and forced improvement quickly.

Toronto fans have been wearing bags on their heads for years and throwing jerseys on the ice for years. The organization didn't just "clean house", they intentionally iced a pathetic team that had no intention of being  competitive. 

Quote

If/when that happens here the next regime will benefit from 6 years to a decade of top 7/10 picks hopefully.

That's the Toronto model. Intentionally suck and exploit a draft lottery system. Great plan for the future. 

Quote

Here is what most of the continent thinks will happen next year, at this time, how many people are right besides you?

JUN 30/2019@6:45p

This is Bodogs odds. If you think this is in any way accurate odds, you're lost in space. The Capitals, Predators, Lightning, Penguins, and Jets are far better teams and have statistically better odds of winning the Cup than Toronto and their porous defense. 

Quote

2019 Stanley Cup - Odds to Win

 

NHL

Winner

• Toronto Maple Leafs +700
• Tampa Bay Lightning +900
• Boston Bruins +950
• Nashville Predators +1100
• Vegas Golden Knights +1100
• Washington Capitals +1200
• Pittsburgh Penguins +1200
• Winnipeg Jets +1400
• San Jose Sharks +2200
• Edmonton Oilers +2500
• Philadelphia Flyers +2500
• Los Angeles Kings +2500
• St. Louis Blues +2500
• Minnesota Wild +2600
• Anaheim Ducks +2800
• Dallas Stars +2800
• Calgary Flames +2800
• Columbus Blue Jackets +3000
• Chicago Blackhawks +3000
• New Jersey Devils +3500
• Colorado Avalanche +3500
• Florida Panthers +4000
• Montreal Canadiens +6600
• New York Rangers +6600
• Detroit Red Wings +6600
• Buffalo Sabres +6600
• Carolina Hurricanes +7000
• Vancouver Canucks +7000
• New York Islanders +8000
• Arizona Coyotes +8000
• Ottawa Senators +15000

 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

That is laughable.

 

The rebuild is done!   Inevitable dynasty!

The rebuild is still happening!

The rebuild is done!

The rebuild is still happening!

 

"Mr Critical".... kindly explain how:

 

2nd round picks on old rentals

repeated mass expenditures in free agency.

first round exits - 'blown' draft position - the dreaded abyss of 'mediocrity' determined draft position....

 

these things spell 'the rebuild is still happening!"

The cookie cutter example of the tank and stockpile 'rebuild' - the Leafs #proper-rebuild.....is still somehow happening.

 

your definition of a 'rebuild' is what again?

 

The Leafs are still stockpiling all tha pickz?

The Leafs are building through the draft?

 

The rebuild is still happening lol.

 

The word rebuild is a laughably, constantly moving set of goal posts.

 

I'd love to hear someone accurately track the 'rebuild' under Shanaplan, and attempt to argue 'rebuild consistency'.   What a joke.

 

 

 

Too flamboyant.

DNR.

 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Again play the projection game. Until both teams play games against each other this is all conjecture. 

 

No one is denying that the Canucks aren't in a transitional phase. Some fans just get tired of the constant negativity, of which you are a major contributor. I support the team and have a realistic vision of where they're at. 

Toronto fans have been wearing bags on their heads for years and throwing jerseys on the ice for years. The organization didn't just "clean house", they intentionally iced a pathetic team that had no intention of being  competitive. 

That's the Toronto model. Intentionally suck and exploit a draft lottery system. Great plan for the future. 

This is Bodogs odds. If you think this is in any way accurate odds, you're lost in space. The Capitals, Predators, Lightning, Penguins, and Jets are far better teams and have statistically better odds of winning the Cup than Toronto and their porous defense. 

 

If those are bogus, unbelievable odds, then what are the real ones?

Which do you endorse and why?