Don’t Re-sign the Sedin Twins

[Dr. Crossbar]

We need the twins now more than ever. Not much time left to put another run together.

The Sedins aren't the problem... there are others on this team that need to step up in a big way. Kesler and Burrows can not have bad years. Booth, Schroeder, Kassian need to come alive. We need more production from Edler. Lu has to be solid, etc, etc, etc.

Take away the Sedins, we're in big trouble. I wouldn't gamble on letting them go. Sure them up for three years and keep tweaking.

[hamhuis23]

Hump

[Canada Hockey Place]

Also think that there is a unrealistic expectation on the return in a trade.

2 examples.

1. Iginla was traded for 2013 1st (28th) Klimchuk + prospects K. Agostino & Hanoski.

2. Hossa & Dupius for Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito and 2008 1st (29th) Leveille.

I can't think of a similar trade that returned more. Maybe I'm forgetting. Can anyone provide an example of a better return?

[Warhippy]

Also think that there is a unrealistic expectation on the return in a trade.

2 examples.

1. Iginla was traded for 2013 1st (28th) Klimchuk + prospects K. Agostino & Hanoski.

2. Hossa & Dupius for Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito and 2008 1st (29th) Leveille.

I can't think of a similar trade that returned more. Maybe I'm forgetting. Can anyone provide an example of a better return?

Lindros for Forsberg picks prospects and cash is about the ONLY comparable...but then we've got to remember the twins are a package. Name one GM not named Snow or Milbury who would give up a package more impressive than the one the Nordiques got for Lindros....

[Crazyhawk]

The Sens wallowed in mediocrity for a few years and drafted well, but gave up some of their vaunted prospects for Bobby Ryan when their captain just walked. To say that their team is currently better than hours shows how little you know. 2nd liner Ryan will now what, lead this team out of Obscurity? or are you expecting that from Zabienejad, Cowen or any of the other youngsters who have yet to do anything in this league? Because as of now Ottawa is a ? as to whether they'll make the playoffs even in the new divisions where as we are still a competitive shoe in.

Alfie out ( age 41 ) a shame for him to leave but in all reality he is past his prime and will not bring much to the Wings

Ryan in ( age 26 ) 30 goal man who will have the opportunity to shine in Canada's capital.

The Sens are looking very good at center with Spezza, Turris, Zibanijad, Pageau and Smith. They are deep here and talented.

Not to mention friendly contracts.

They have of course Norris winner Karlsson along with Methot, and up and coming Cowen ( a beast )

In net Anderson had the best GA last season and Lehner is one of the brightest goalie prospects in the league.

They are well coached.

Not to say which team is better Canucks vs Senators but I sure wouldn't be calling them obscure by any stretch of the imagination. They are primed to keep moving forward and if they can all remain healthy than look out!!

[Warhippy]

Alfie out ( age 41 ) a shame for him to leave but in all reality he is past his prime and will not bring much to the Wings

Ryan in ( age 26 ) 30 goal man who will have the opportunity to shine in Canada's capital.

The Sens are looking very good at center with Spezza, Turris, Zibanijad, Pageau and Smith. They are deep here and talented.

Not to mention friendly contracts.

They have of course Norris winner Karlsson along with Methot, and up and coming Cowen ( a beast )

In net Anderson had the best GA last season and Lehner is one of the brightest goalie prospects in the league.

They are well coached.

Not to say which team is better Canucks vs Senators but I sure wouldn't be calling them obscure by any stretch of the imagination. They are primed to keep moving forward and if they can all remain healthy than look out!!

I am not arguing that they are well positioned, but after 1 great D a solid goalie and 1 solid forward line....how are they better than us, as I was quoting?

Methot, Cowen, Zabeinejad all truly have things to prove. Karlsson needs to stay healthy and reproduce those numbers as well.

Hard to say they're comparable or better at this point.

[Crazyhawk]

I am not arguing that they are well positioned, but after 1 great D a solid goalie and 1 solid forward line....how are they better than us, as I was quoting?

Methot, Cowen, Zabeinejad all truly have things to prove. Karlsson needs to stay healthy and reproduce those numbers as well.

Hard to say they're comparable or better at this point.

I agree it is hard to say at this point. I was only questioning the obscurtiy you were referring to which Bobby Ryan was to help lift them from. They got to the playoffs missing thier #1 center, #1 LW, #1 D and for a while #1 goalie yet they made the playoffs and won a round against the Habs.

[Benchsplinters]

The Sedin's want to stay in Vancouver, that part is obvious.

I'm sure they also want to win a cup in Vancouver and being level headed guys, I'm sure they realize that in a few years they will not be the first line players they are right now.

Lastly, I'm sure their ultimate goal, both personal, and for this franchise, is to win a Stanley Cup before they retire.

Putting all these points together, I feel we'll see the Sedin's sign in Vancouver for another 4 years at 20 million. or 5 years at 25 million depending on when they want to go back to Sweden.

This will give them their wish of ending their careers in Vancouver and some cap relief to the Canucks to go seek out some extra scoring help. The cap is only going up and a 5 million dollar cap hit would look great on these guys. Even in a few years time when they're only potting 50-60 points.

They would look awesome on our second line in the latter half of the deal and would be exceptional mentors for our young guys coming up. Not to mention they would then face our opponents tier two defenceman rather than have to go up against guys like Weber, Suter and Keith on a nightly basis.

Their production should remain solid for the duration of their contract.

I feel that this is an equitable number and something that the Sedin's would go for, It's fair to them without handcuffing the franchise they so want to stay on and win a cup with.

Many people are saying that the Sedin's will each get 6-7 million easy as that's their market value. The difference here is that they are a "package deal". They don't wan't to be split apart. So their options are are limited. How many contenders (they want a cup) would be able to clear 12-14 million for these guys and offer them long term deals? Would it be worth it to them to uproot their families from the city they love for an extra million bucks a year? Looking at how these guys operate, I doubt it.

Then again, maybe I'm completely out to lunch. I guess we'll see

You are not out to lunch at all; just thinking outside the box and that is constructive.

Henrik and Daniel are pretty sharp and common sense guys. They are personally aware of the fact that they have reached the prime level of their careers and that in the future their play will start to fade.

I believe they will take that into consideration when negotiating their final contract with Gillis. Unlike some players who can only see dollar signs, no matter what juncture they are in their career, the Sedins have enough character and the morals to ask what is fair predicated on their level of play and productivity.

IMHO they will be most interested in term rather than the money to simply finish their careers as Canucks.

I expect to see something like 5M for 4/5 years which I believe is more than fair to the team and the twins.

[chrisbanks]

Not resigning the Sedins is like Pittsburgh letting Crosby and Malkin walk. or Toews + Kane.... facepalm.

hahah yeah ok nice comparisons... best players in the world + stanley cup championships + youth is no where in the same discussion as the sedins. i love how highly you think of these guys thou but the sedins are no where near a toews and kane or malkin crosby ...

[Baggins]

Many people are saying that the Sedin's will each get 6-7 million easy as that's their market value. The difference here is that they are a "package deal". They don't wan't to be split apart. So their options are are limited. How many contenders (they want a cup) would be able to clear 12-14 million for these guys and offer them long term deals? Would it be worth it to them to uproot their families from the city they love for an extra million bucks a year? Looking at how these guys operate, I doubt it.

Then again, maybe I'm completely out to lunch. I guess we'll see

I'd say you're lowballing their open market value. 7-7.5m was their market value five years ago when the cap was 7.5m lower than this year and it's expected to go up next year. While knowing the cap would be going down this past season the Wild signed Parise at a 7.5m cap hit that sees him a ufa again at 38. The deal pays him 12m/12m/11m/9m/9m/9m/9m/9m/8m/6m. That deal came 3 years after his only 90+ points season and followed a 69 points in 82 games performance.

Milan Lucic just re-signed at a 6m cap hit with a career high of 62 points.

The Sedins have always been reasonable with their contracts but I really don't expect to see a pay cut. Possibly a declining deal that runs until they're 39 to get a better cap hit.

I don't buy the notion being a package deal hurts them in negotiations. How many teams would jump at the opportunity to acquire two top line players with crazy chemistry already there without having to give up any assets? Did Minny balk at Parise and Suter as a package for a combined $15m+? Nope. And there were other teams interested knowing the cap was going down. Even if a team needs to move a contract they'd get two first line players and assets for the contract moved. A double win.

[Absent Canuck]

I'd say you're lowballing their open market value. 7-7.5m was their market value five years ago when the cap was 7.5m lower than this year and it's expected to go up next year. While knowing the cap would be going down this past season the Wild signed Parise at a 7.5m cap hit that sees him a ufa again at 38. The deal pays him 12m/12m/11m/9m/9m/9m/9m/9m/8m/6m. That deal came 3 years after his only 90+ points season and followed a 69 points in 82 games performance.

Milan Lucic just re-signed at a 6m cap hit with a career high of 62 points.

The Sedins have always been reasonable with their contracts but I really don't expect to see a pay cut. Possibly a declining deal that runs until they're 39 to get a better cap hit.

I don't buy the notion being a package deal hurts them in negotiations. How many teams would jump at the opportunity to acquire two top line players with crazy chemistry already there without having to give up any assets? Did Minny balk at Parise and Suter as a package for a combined $15m+? Nope. And there were other teams interested knowing the cap was going down. Even if a team needs to move a contract they'd get two first line players and assets for the contract moved. A double win.

You arent being fair. Try comparing guys their age. Not Parise and Suter.

when using comparative analogy, we must resist the temptation to create a 'straw man' or false narrative as a sales pitch.

For example:

Sedins are the lifeblood of the Canucks.

If you were drowning and someone threw you a life raft , would you take it? Of course you would!

Ergo. Re sign the sedins for 8 mil each. Would you rather drown if they walked out?

This is a fairly common way of making a false narrative to justify whatever our personal beliefs are. However, we are Canuck fans first and must always be loyal to the franchise. We can do our best to bend for the twins , but giving them big contracts starting at age 34 is a non starter as far as I am concerned.

I can already tell they are no longer 'elite' scoring title players anymore. They are 80 points guys and then next year 70 point guys and so forth.

Fair market value for aging guys like this are 5mil bucks for 70 point guys. If they are still producing at 80 points at age 36 somehow , then I am sure gillis can make it up the next year.

I go with 2 year deals 5 mil each . I am not interested in what they did 5 years ago . We have to look at what they provide today. If they want another huge payday (and I wouldnt blame them if they did) they can go to Carolina or wherever. We wil be more than happy to have all this worked out before the deadline so we can trade them for a little bit of value or nothing if they walk out.

What we cant do is offer them 6 or 7 million dollar deals for 4 or 5 years so they can fade into injury and slumps and we stuck with their salary cap hits.

[bobopan]

In the perfect world to me they'd be signed to 1 year deals here on out.. That doesn't appear to be the case as they've now said they want this contract to be their last. I for one would be very weary of a 3+ year deal but that seems the direction were headed. The Sedins aren't greedy players tho and they know this team needs the cap room to be able to complement them with good players if were ever going to win a cup. I don't see them asking for any more money than what they already make.

[theminister]

4 x $6.5 is my guess.

[Baggins]

You arent being fair. Try comparing guys their age. Not Parise and Suter.

when using comparative analogy, we must resist the temptation to create a 'straw man' or false narrative as a sales pitch.

I can already tell they are no longer 'elite' scoring title players anymore. They are 80 points guys and then next year 70 point guys and so forth.

Fair market value for aging guys like this are 5mil bucks for 70 point guys. If they are still producing at 80 points at age 36 somehow , then I am sure gillis can make it up the next year.

How is it unfair when you look at Parise's salary and recent production at the time of signing? Plus that cap hit will be there unit he's 38. On top of that it was signed at a time the cap was known to be dropping, not increasing as projected now.

For example:

Sedins are the lifeblood of the Canucks.

If you were drowning and someone threw you a life raft , would you take it? Of course you would!

Ergo. Re sign the sedins for 8 mil each. Would you rather drown if they walked out?

This is a fairly common way of making a false narrative to justify whatever our personal beliefs are. However, we are Canuck fans first and must always be loyal to the franchise. We can do our best to bend for the twins , but giving them big contracts starting at age 34 is a non starter as far as I am concerned.

Who is suggesting 8m? I'm not. Cap hit will depend largely on the length of the deal is what I'm suggesting.

I go with 2 year deals 5 mil each . I am not interested in what they did 5 years ago . We have to look at what they provide today. If they want another huge payday (and I wouldnt blame them if they did) they can go to Carolina or wherever. We wil be more than happy to have all this worked out before the deadline so we can trade them for a little bit of value or nothing if they walk out.

What we cant do is offer them 6 or 7 million dollar deals for 4 or 5 years so they can fade into injury and slumps and we stuck with their salary cap hits.

Two years at $5m would be a complete insult imo. And I'm not suggesting a 5 year deal at 7m per either. I think you're confusing salary and cap hit. I could see a five year deal that starts with a reasonable raise and ends with a smaller salary that brings the cap hit down.

Btw, I believe those of you thinking they'll waive their ntc at the trade deadline if they aren't re-signed are dreaming. I think they'd be more inclined to play out their current deal and return to Sweden to finish their careers rather than relocating for a few months if Gillis chooses not to sign them. They wouldn't be the first to refuse to waive an ntc.

[CptCanuck16]

The OP makes some valid points. I noticed a definite decline in the twins play last season. I'm not prepared to throw them out with the bath water just yet though. I think it would be in the clubs best interest to sign them to a 1 year deal and then reevaluate after another season, rather than signing them to a 2-3 year deal. It might make them work a bit harder to get another extension if they really want to stay in Vancouver and it will also be beneficial to all the young up and comers. Henrik and Daniel are such classy players with an enormous skill set. They can teach the young prospects a lot about how to play the game. Think of what a benefit it was to have Kesler play with Sundin. I think Hank and Dank will provide leadership and be fine role models for the new guys.

...and you never know. A young and eager group of guys with a few talented veterans could make a run deep into the playoffs and surprise everyone....they just need better goaltending...but that is for another thread.

[Absent Canuck]

How is it unfair when you look at Parise's salary and recent production at the time of signing? Plus that cap hit will be there unit he's 38. On top of that it was signed at a time the cap was known to be dropping, not increasing as projected now.

Your post makes little sense. The only thing about it that resembles other posts on CDC is the draconian use of hyperbole to justify the ridiculous. You are making up rules to fit whatever end game you wish to project.

We made this mistake with Naslund and look at what a clown he turned out to be at the end of his career. The guy was a total embarrassment and left town with his tail between his legs. Shame really he ended up such a third rate guy.

I think Gillis felt bad and retired his jersey. Certainly most fans feel there must have been some kind of back door deal to retire a guy like Naslunds number

Back to the Sedins, they are actually real men. They arent wimps like Naslund and there is no reason why they cannot leave town with their heads held high . They also won scoring titles. They didnt choke them away at the last moment.

I dont think they would ask for numbers suggest. I also dont think Gillis is going to give them 'guilt pay' based on what they did back in their prime. As mentioned before, he just had to go through the end result with Mr 'we choked' .

On that note, I cant wait until Pavel Bure's number is retired. Two 60 goal seasons, 110 points, stanley cup finals, calder trophy, Hockey hall of fame. Now there is a guy who deserves it. So will the twins.

[Sick Hands]

Praise the lord there is fans that get it.

I love the Sedins, they've been a real treat and watching them blossom into franchise league leading scorers, has been nothing short of breathtaking.

But, hockey is a business and that business is to win the cup. the OP Is 100% correct and I hope Gillis doesn't derp this season away hoping that a miraculous messiah will save this aging team.

In the end its not about who will replace those 150 points as some have pointed out. Its about rebuilding a team which dominates both offensively and physically. This can only be done through drafting.

We must take some low years to get the highs.

I know i'd go through 5 years of getting reamed into the bottom of the standings, just to have a team to be excited about.

This would weed out the bandwagon fans and give us hope for the future.

The worst thing we can do after this season is keep the status quo and "Calgary" it into retirement.

If we can get a package of picks or prospects I say do it. The Sedins will know they are helping this franchise for years to come. They are

very intelligent, and understand the service they would be doing.

If they would agree to such a selfless act, Id be the first to chant " 22 33 to the rafters!"

[Absent Canuck]

In the perfect world to me they'd be signed to 1 year deals here on out.. That doesn't appear to be the case as they've now said they want this contract to be their last. I for one would be very weary of a 3+ year deal but that seems the direction were headed. The Sedins aren't greedy players tho and they know this team needs the cap room to be able to complement them with good players if were ever going to win a cup. I don't see them asking for any more money than what they already make.

In a salary cap world, the Twins need to be realistic about their value . In a non cap world we honour them with virtually whatever they wish to mentor the youngsters.

I project them as 80 point guys this year, and then 70 point guys next year and even 65 point guys after that. and then 60.

How much do you pay for aging 70 , 65 and 60 -65 point guys who need all the juicy powerplay time to even get that?

I give them 5mil each but will go three years and front load it so they can take off after two. We can eat a little cap hit so they can retire a year early.

[Baggins]

Your post makes little sense. The only thing about it that resembles other posts on CDC is the draconian use of hyperbole to justify the ridiculous. You are making up rules to fit whatever end game you wish to project.

We made this mistake with Naslund and look at what a clown he turned out to be at the end of his career. The guy was a total embarrassment and left town with his tail between his legs. Shame really he ended up such a third rate guy.

I think Gillis felt bad and retired his jersey. Certainly most fans feel there must have been some kind of back door deal to retire a guy like Naslunds number

Back to the Sedins, they are actually real men. They arent wimps like Naslund and there is no reason why they cannot leave town with their heads held high . They also won scoring titles. They didnt choke them away at the last moment.

I dont think they would ask for numbers suggest. I also dont think Gillis is going to give them 'guilt pay' based on what they did back in their prime. As mentioned before, he just had to go through the end result with Mr 'we choked' .

On that note, I cant wait until Pavel Bure's number is retired. Two 60 goal seasons, 110 points, stanley cup finals, calder trophy, Hockey hall of fame. Now there is a guy who deserves it. So will the twins.

What a complete crock of childish drivel.

[aGENT]

So you're proposing that we give them a contract with the same caphit that David Clarkson got?

Apples and Orangutans.

Clarkson firstly, is quite arguably over-payed. Second he's in the meat of his prime earning years not signing a retirement contract as the twins would be. Third his contract is 7 years which helps lower the cap hit compared to the 5 in my loose example for the twins.

So yes I propose we sign them to a contract that would end up with a roughly similar cap hit as Clarkson due to it being a shorter term and being that their play will somewhat decline as they approach retirement and accordingly slide them to second line duty and commensurate pay.