NHL Case Study: The Calgary Flames

[CanucksJay]

I keep reading things like, we just need a legit top 6 forward, we need our core guys to step up, etc.

This is going to hurt real bad guys. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. This is a good team but not an elite team. Yes we are under performing right now and are capable of playing better but let's look at the overall landscape of the NHL. We are at best a 2nd or 3rd round playoff team (if we are going on all cylinders) but we aren't Stanley Cup Champion caliber.

Let's face the facts.

Yesterday, we outplayed the Kings but we lost to a backup

The previous game, we outplayed Chicago but lost. I read things like, we just need a top 6 forward. Guess what? Chicago was also missing a top 6 forward. His name is Hossa and he is a game breaker.

Even if we mortgage the future (by trading a 1st rounder and one of Shink,Horvat,Jensen) and add a solid top 6 player, we are still not going to be good enough. Add that to the fact that our core is declining while the current favorites are younger and getting even better, it would be asinine to move our young assets to get even older for 1 last hail Mary at the cup.

At this point, I hope MG is able to make a bold move like he said he would and go against the grain by trading some of our guys who actually have value to actual real contenders so that our rebuild isn't like Edmonton or Calgarys and we actually get the job done right in 2-3 years as opposed to 5 or 6 years.

Calgary was pretty much in the same situation as Van. After their SC finals run, they kept all their aging vets and signed them to NTCs. (sound familiar?)

Iggy signed his 5 year deal with Cgy at 31. Sedins signed 4 years at 33

The Flames after the cup run went to a slow decline in which their fan base like ours currently were in denial.

They went from a SC Finalist to 3rd, 8th, 7th, 5th, and then 2 years at 10th before they realized it was time to rebuild.

During the decline, it was the same talk we are hearing here. We just need another player. Tanguay is coming back! Sweet we got Cammy, etc.

If the end goal is the Stanley Cup, MG has to realize that the window for the old core is closed and we need to set ourselves up for success in 2-3 years.

You guys can bring this thread back up a la Clutch's Burrows thread (Deep inside, I hope that happens) but I don't think this will happen and I think the best move at this point is to cash in our chips and go for the ultimate prize in a couple of years.

[MJDDawg]

Clutch's thread will stand alone in infamy.

But really, I've thought along these lines since we were meekly eliminated from the playoffs last year. Calgary is not a bad comparison of where we will end up with MG at the helm.

Our comparison needs to be the San Jose Sharks, even the Ottawa Senators to a certain extent.

I posted this in another thread and think it's appropriate here:

The fans in this market are going to have to face the facts....that this teams' best days are long gone and it's time to start the transition for the old to the next gen.

There's no way MG should be trading any picks or prospects for a short term quick fix here, and if anything, assuming we're out of the playoffs at the trade deadline, Gillis should be looking to move some valuable pieces that should be able to fetch a high price at the deadline.

I'm not saying blow it up, but the only players that should really be untouchable are the twins and Lui. Trading one or two of a Burr, or Kes, or Higgy or Hansen or any of our defencemen should get us several more high picks and prospects that will launch the rebuild full throttle.

My main issue is that I don't have confidence in Mike Gillis to make the best trades possible.

[Cunuck]

I like what you said and how you said it but I also disagree with it. I think this team remains competitive until the Sedins are producing, and they're still close to PPG players. Like you said, we outplayed two of the best teams in the league the past two games and didn't come out with the victory in either one. If you keep outplaying teams, things are going to turn around and that's what I expect from this team.

I think the atmosphere in this place would be a lot better had it not been for the weird bounce on the San Jose tying goal, 9 seconds in the Chicago game and 3 minutes in the LA game. All three of those teams are legitimate cup contenders and we showed that we could hang/compete with the best of 'em and that's extremely promising.

[73 Percent]

AGREED!

my only untouchables (other than youngsters) are the twins, kes.

[CanucksJay]

I like what you said and how you said it but I also disagree with it. I think this team remains competitive until the Sedins are producing, and they're still close to PPG players. Like you said, we outplayed two of the best teams in the league the past two games and didn't come out with the victory in either one. If you keep outplaying teams, things are going to turn around and that's what I expect from this team.

I think the atmosphere in this place would be a lot better had it not been for the weird bounce on the San Jose tying goal, 9 seconds in the Chicago game and 3 minutes in the LA game. All three of those teams are legitimate cup contenders and we showed that we could hang/compete with the best of 'em and that's extremely promising.

I think your exact point is the danger though. We are "hanging" with those teams so we've tricked ourselves into believing we can compete with them. We lost to a backup (LA) and we lost to Chicago who was missing one of their key stars. We lost to SJ who is currently not playing their best hockey.

To win the Stanley Cup, we are going to have to run the table and beat ALL of those teams in a best of 7.

I have confidence that if we play up to potential we can win a couple of those rounds. However I don't think we can win all 4 rounds.

[Cunuck]

I think your exact point is the danger though. We are "hanging" with those teams so we've tricked ourselves into believing we can compete with them. We lost to a backup (LA) and we lost to Chicago who was missing one of their key stars. We lost to SJ who is currently not playing their best hockey.

To win the Stanley Cup, we are going to have to run the table and beat ALL of those teams in a best of 7.

I have confidence that if we play up to potential we can win a couple of those rounds. However I don't think we can win all 4 rounds.

There's always danger when you're gunning for the cup. There's never any guarantees that you win the cup. I think the team is just in a dry slump right now and will break out of it soon enough (hopefully really soon considering how competitive our conference is). The part that is encouraging to me is that we not only competed with those top 3 teams but we actually dominated all three games from the start and that's something that has been missing from this team the past two years. I think the effort this team puts out night in and night out is as consistent as ever and that kind of consistent play is what wins playoff rounds. I may be a bit of a homer but I honestly think one top 6 playmaking center/winger can make this team a legitimate contender, but obviously that commodity doesn't come too cheap.

[CanucksJay]

Clutch's thread will stand alone in infamy.

But really, I've thought along these lines since we were meekly eliminated from the playoffs last year. Calgary is not a bad comparison of where we will end up with MG at the helm.

Our comparison needs to be the San Jose Sharks, even the Ottawa Senators to a certain extent.

I posted this in another thread and think it's appropriate here:

The fans in this market are going to have to face the facts....that this teams' best days are long gone and it's time to start the transition for the old to the next gen.

There's no way MG should be trading any picks or prospects for a short term quick fix here, and if anything, assuming we're out of the playoffs at the trade deadline, Gillis should be looking to move some valuable pieces that should be able to fetch a high price at the deadline.

I'm not saying blow it up, but the only players that should really be untouchable are the twins and Lui. Trading one or two of a Burr, or Kes, or Higgy or Hansen or any of our defencemen should get us several more high picks and prospects that will launch the rebuild full throttle.

My main issue is that I don't have confidence in Mike Gillis to make the best trades possible.

Yeah, I am a MG fan but I feel like he has strengths and weaknesses. As a former player agent, he can spot under achievers and sign them to good value contracts.

On the other hand, as a former agent, he is handicapped in that I think the other GMs want to fleece him on every deal.

My main concern is that we are going to be hovering around 7-8th around deadline playing some of our best hockey and so MG decides to go all in and upgrade at the deadline.

I think thats the wrong move as we still wont have enough to win the cup at the end.

The Flames always played their best hockey in the 2nd half and was in a fringe position which handcuffed their GMs from rebuilding when they should have. I just don't want the same thing happening to the Canucks

[RyanKeslord17]

Good post and well said. But I still am in denial like you said. This team still isn't Calgary, and when that team went to the finals, they overachieved that year anyway. We on the other hand had won two presidents trophies back to back with this core, including a SCF run. I think the core has been fantastic, even now.

Our real need is to surround our core with key, game time players, who are able to finish and score TIMELY goals. Remember when Torres scored in game one of the SCF? When was the last time we saw such a timely goal off a who was playing on our 3rd line? Not to beat a dead horse, but remember Hodgson scoring all those game changing goals which either kept us in it or gave us the lead? Even Samuelsson was sniping back in the day.

What we need are supporting players who work well with our core. Get players, whether from the minors or trade, that compliment our current core. Obviously that's easy to sit here and say, and it's not easy, but that has to happen. Just like how LA got Carter to compliment Richards, BOS got Kelly to make a legit 3rd line, CHI added youth, Shaw and Saad who fit in like a glove.

We need chemistry, is what I'm basically saying. Some new faces are needed, but it doesn't have to be a grade A sniper or anything.

[CanucksJay]

There's always danger when you're gunning for the cup. There's never any guarantees that you win the cup. I think the team is just in a dry slump right now and will break out of it soon enough (hopefully really soon considering how competitive our conference is). The part that is encouraging to me is that we not only competed with those top 3 teams but we actually dominated all three games from the start and that's something that has been missing from this team the past two years. I think the effort this team puts out night in and night out is as consistent as ever and that kind of consistent play is what wins playoff rounds. I may be a bit of a homer but I honestly think one top 6 playmaking center/winger can make this team a legitimate contender, but obviously that commodity doesn't come too cheap.

I totally agree with you in that there are no guarantees in Sports. Case in point is 2011 and 2012 where we were the favorites.

However, if we can't even win as favorites, what are our chances as underdogs?

I'd rather go in to the playoffs as a top 3 team in the league rather than 6th in the conference.

I guess we are hoping to pull an upset like the Kings in 2012 but I honestly think their roster was stacked and more suited for the playoffs than ours currently

[Cunuck]

I totally agree with you in that there are no guarantees in Sports. Case in point is 2011 and 2012 where we were the favorites.

However, if we can't even win as favorites, what are our chances as underdogs?

I'd rather go in to the playoffs as a top 3 team in the league rather than 6th in the conference.

I guess we are hoping to pull an upset like the Kings in 2012 but I honestly think their roster was stacked and more suited for the playoffs than ours currently

Once you make the playoffs, its a whole new ball game. Its basically a fresh start and the standings honestly go out the window. Our cup run was one OT goal from being crushed in the first round to the 8th seed. The main goal is to make the playoffs and I think this team is definitely capable of doing that.

[Dogbyte]

At the end of the day it's a business and the Canucks are one of the most succesful business in the league.

The games are all sold out and fans not turning a blind eye no matter what the team does. Unfortunately there is no incentive to win. Just stay competitive and line their pockets with the fans money.

I could easily see this team dwindling itself away until we are actually the Vancouver Flames.

[CanucksJay]

At the end of the day it's a business and the Canucks are one of the most succesful business in the league.

The games are all sold out and fans not turning a blind eye no matter what the team does. Unfortunately there is no incentive to win. Just stay competitive and line their pockets with the fans money.

I could easily see this team dwindling itself away until we are actually the Vancouver Flames.

I'm not so sure... we saw the fickleness (and rightly so) when playoff ticket prices were so jacked up that they had to leak a 50% off code.

I'm pretty sure that sent a strong signal to the executive team.

[CanucksJay]

Once you make the playoffs, its a whole new ball game. Its basically a fresh start and the standings honestly go out the window. Our cup run was one OT goal from being crushed in the first round to the 8th seed. The main goal is to make the playoffs and I think this team is definitely capable of doing that.

I want to believe that but the last few years of watching this team indicate they lack killer instinct and the ability to step up in big games.

Losing in 5 games to LA, being swept by the Sharks, being run out of our own building in Game 7 of the SCF.

Our inability of our stars to score when it matters (Sedins).

I just don't think this team has it.

Our best chance was 2011 when we had our best team ever in franchise history coupled with the fact that the other teams weren't as good as they are now. We've since gotten worse while they improved.

I'm just pissed we didn't have Torts in 2011 or MG really didn't go all in and add one more star in 2011 because THAT was our best chance.

We had Ballard making 4.2 sitting in the pressbox and Schneids warming the bench making a cool mil.

Torts as the coach and that 5.2m being put to good use would have been the difference... (i guess I should stop with the what could have been...I'm starting to sound like a senile grandpa)

[CanucksJay]

There you have it folks, the Vancouver Flames

[badbeatjackpot]

Calgary has somewhat turned on the light bulb after fighting the rebuild for a few years and have picked up some solid prospects the past couple of years.

I was afraid that we were going down the flames path like the OP suggested but I like what Benning has done. It's a hybrid of what Calgary has done as he has picked up some almost ready prospects that speed up the rebuild time. With this strategy, we might not end up with the blue chip prospects as we will always field a competitive team.

Personally, I think Benning knows that this core is not going to get it done. I think we will see some movement at the deadline with the older fringe 2nd and 3rd line players but I don't see the top line going anywhere not because he believes in them but more out of respect for them and what they mean and have meant to the city.

I can see the Sedins staying on and signing a cheap deal to end their careers in van once their contracts are up as a 2B while we have a young up and coming 1st line and a young 2A line that challenges the Sedins 2B line.

[MaxVerstappen33]

There you have it folks, the Vancouver Flames

How many division titles did that Flames team win ? ZERO

How many Presidents trophies did it win ? ZERO

They had one cup run. Thats it. Its an insult to compare the teams.

But as far as rebuilds go, I hope we are the Flames and not the Oilers.

So many people want to dump out vets for hoper picks. The Flames didn't do this and the Oilers did.

We need to keep our vets and sign players like Vrbata. Let the picks come to us.

[Guest Dasein]

There you have it folks, the Vancouver Flames

Would you rather we blow it up and be the Vancouver Oilers?

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

If moves are not made this year. Than, its time to admit we are going to be heading the same route the flames went because it's a deep draft.

Guys should be traded and picks should be grabbed for this years draft.

[Ghostsof1915]

Holy Necrothread Batman!

[RUPERTKBD]

Would you rather we blow it up and be the Vancouver Oilers?

Nobody wants to be the Oilers, but the Vancouver Penguins, Vancouver Blackhawks....., heck even the Vancouver Lightning and Vancouver Islanders would look pretty good right now...