Ilya Kovalchuk. Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 What about the other guys? If this was FA, it wouldn't be a terrible contract. Since this is a renewal of a contract you would think a player would take a discount. Also I doubt any GM would take Phaneuf over Karlsson at their contracts. I didn't say once that I'd take Phaneuf over Karlsson, but rather that numbers don't lie and Phaneuf has a far superior defensive game than Karlsson. Karlsson got paid $6.5 million for his offensive game. Although Phaneuf's offense isn't as good as Karlssons, the defensive element is definitely a point to be noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JE14 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Lol, I can't even take you seriously after the fact you added Erik Karlsson to that list. Have you seen a single Senators game? The guys like a 4th forward on the ice, and has no defensive game what so ever.If you're talking purely based on offensive statistics then I would probably take Karlsson, but sadly the NHL has two ends of the ice and Karlsson doesn't fair quite well in one of them. Also, not to mention Phaneuf is no slouch when it comes to producing offense. Four dmen on the Canucks are posting (arguably) better numbers. Garrison has more points, Bieksa has the same amount, Tanev has 2 less and Stanton has 3 less but the amount of PP time Phaneuf gets compared to Tanev and Stanton is a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboose Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I do think your post was a good one though, the contract isn't THAT bad, with the cap raising over the next few years 7m will become the average for a top pair D. Also, considering the leafs have no other legitimate top-4 defensemen on their roster they couldn't afford to lose by far their best dman, they'd be fracked. The Karlsson contract was signed under the old CBA, and was an RFA deal, so I don't really consider it comparable. Two very different players at different stages in their career. I certainly would take Karlsson over Phaneuf, but its a hard comparison to make. As to the Leafs having no legitimate top 4, I'd have to argue that. Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger are certainly AHL fodder, and absolutely the worst Leafs this season, but I believe Gunnarsson is a good defenceman. He's had injury trouble of late but still gets the job done. He's certainly no top pairing guy however. I don't even want to talk about Cody Franson, CDCs most overrated player. He's an effective puck mover at times but a defensive travesty. I'll be happy to see him gone. The Leafs relied heavily on Grabovski and MacArthur to pick up the defensive responsibilites of an insufficient D core, but now that they're gone the Leafs lack a true top pairing D and number 1 center before they can be taken seriously as a contender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex the Great Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Sure, I'll actually give you stats for the season so far. (Stats via sportingcharts.com) Phaneuf: 30 turnovers Hamhuis: 31 turnovers Bieksa: 40 turnovers Woah. You didn't have to include Juice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 What a logical, well thought out argument. The statistics have no meaning, in the face of that cunning response. The point is, Phaneuf is playing top minutes, and will expect to be compensated for it. This contract is about 1.5 million less than he would have received on the open market from teams like Edmonton or Philly. Hamhuis plays top minutes as well, and gets payed $2.5 million LESS than Phaneuf. Shall we look at takeaways for the same players? Hamhuis - 27 Phaneuf - 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Kovalchuk. Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Hamhuis plays top minutes as well, and gets payed $2.5 million LESS than Phaneuf. Shall we look at takeaways for the same players? Hamhuis - 27 Phaneuf - 19 I don't think your looked at my stats post. Phaneuf plays better with those minutes than hamhuis in all aspects of the game. 8 takeaways aren't going to justify your argument. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayRayDown Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Karlsson contract was signed under the old CBA, and was an RFA deal, so I don't really consider it comparable. Two very different players at different stages in their career. I certainly would take Karlsson over Phaneuf, but its a hard comparison to make. As to the Leafs having no legitimate top 4, I'd have to argue that. Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger are certainly AHL fodder, and absolutely the worst Leafs this season, but I believe Gunnarsson is a good defenceman. He's had injury trouble of late but still gets the job done. He's certainly no top pairing guy however. I don't even want to talk about Cody Franson, CDCs most overrated player. He's an effective puck mover at times but a defensive travesty. I'll be happy to see him gone. The Leafs relied heavily on Grabovski and MacArthur to pick up the defensive responsibilites of an insufficient D core, but now that they're gone the Leafs lack a true top pairing D and number 1 center before they can be taken seriously as a contender. Well you are stuck with guys like fraser and rangers when you have no cap space when you overpay for most of the roster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I don't think your looked at my stats post. Phaneuf plays better with those minutes than hamhuis in all aspects of the game. 8 takeaways aren't going to justify your argument. Try again. But Hamhuis having only one more giveaway than Phaneuf justifies yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Kovalchuk. Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 But Hamhuis having only one more giveaway than Phaneuf justifies yours? No my in depth stats first post does. I didn't post giveaways in that post. You asked me to post giveaways thinking phaneufs are far worse than hamhuis'. Yet you were wrong once again. What justifies my argument is those lengthy numbers I posted because my opinion is only my opinion, but the numbers don't lie and I put them out there. You're running out of things to say so I won't ask you to try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_lai416 Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 i dunno why we are laughing at the laffs signing Phaneuf to 7mil for 7 years.. when we re-signed the sedins each to 7mil for 4yrs.. at least Phaneuf still have a few good years left.. the Sedins are on a rapid decline over the years.. and Daniel haven't been the same ever since the elbow from Keith.. we maybe laughing at the laffs now.. but the rest of the leagues are probably laughing at us for paying for past accomplishments.. we are paying 14mil for 2 players that'll prolly net us only 60 points a season.. sure i know they are projecting for 70 points this year.. but since the hot start they had.. they have fallen off a cliff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 i dunno why we are laughing at the laffs signing Phaneuf to 7mil for 7 years.. when we re-signed the sedins each to 7mil for 4yrs.. at least Phaneuf still have a few good years left.. the Sedins are on a rapid decline over the years.. and Daniel haven't been the same ever since the elbow from Keith.. we maybe laughing at the laffs now.. but the rest of the leagues are probably laughing at us for paying for past accomplishments.. we are paying 14mil for 2 players that'll prolly net us only 60 points a season.. sure i know they are projecting for 70 points this year.. but since the hot start they had.. they have fallen off a cliff.. Did you just compare the two best players in Canucks history, saying we gave $7 million for past accomplishments, to Dion Phaneuf??? Lol? Not sure if serious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 i dunno why we are laughing at the laffs signing Phaneuf to 7mil for 7 years.. when we re-signed the sedins each to 7mil for 4yrs.. at least Phaneuf still have a few good years left.. the Sedins are on a rapid decline over the years.. and Daniel haven't been the same ever since the elbow from Keith.. we maybe laughing at the laffs now.. but the rest of the leagues are probably laughing at us for paying for past accomplishments.. we are paying 14mil for 2 players that'll prolly net us only 60 points a season.. sure i know they are projecting for 70 points this year.. but since the hot start they had.. they have fallen off a cliff.. You're talking about the same players that have had 4 different line mates and no blue line scoring support through all of November right? The Twins will be good for 70+ points per season into the last year of their contract provided there is no constant line juggling. Hansen is starting to read them and produce just fine. Not sure who the "leagues" you speak of that are laughing at us, but I know of 29 other teams that would give half of their prospect depth and multiple picks for the Twins. Back to Phaneuf, it is what the market will bear. I don't think he's worth $7 million but he makes our blue line look pretty good contract for contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soshified Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Lol, Canucks fans overrating their own and underrating others yet again. Dion Phaneuf plays top minutes every night, shuts down top opponents and does a good job at it. I don't think it is fair to say he is overrated. And as for the $7 million dollars over 7 years, the Leafs have locked up their captain and anchor on the back end. As for statistics wise, Phaneuf is actually better than every single Canucks defenseman in +/-, points (except Garrison), minutes played shorthanded, minutes played on the PP while playing in all situtaions. If you take a look below, other than Hamhuis, Leafs score more with Phaneuf on the ice than any of the mentioned Canucks. Phaneuf has the least goals against per 60 minutes, and his Plus-Minus is superior to all of them (Only one above 1). He may not be worth the full $7 million, but I'd take a $7 million Phaneuf than a $4.6 Hamhuis, Bieksa or Garrison. Not to mention he has a physical element that none other than Bieksa possess. If you're looking purely based on statistics, then still Phaneuf is better. Also, Leafs allow most goals when Phaneuf is off the ice, which also shows how vital he is for the Leafs back end. (Statistics via Behindthenet.ca) Phaneuf vs Canucks Defense: Phaneuf: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 2.80 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 1.54 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: 1.25 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 2.53 Hamhuis: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 3.18 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 2.35 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: 0.84 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 2.25 Bieksa: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 2.72 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 1.98 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: 0.74 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 2.47 Garrison: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 1.97 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 2.06 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: -0.09 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 2.40 Phaneuf fairs quite well against two of the premier Defencemen in the league, both of which have around $7 million dollar deals. Phaneuf vs Other top NHL Defencemen: Phaneuf: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 2.80 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 1.54 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: 1.25 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 2.53 Chara: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 2.30 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 1.95 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: 0.35 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 1.69 Suter: - On-Ice goals for per 60 Minutes: 1.60 - On-Ice goals against per 60 Minutes: 1.81 - On-ice Plus-Minus per 60 Minutes: -0.21 - Team goals against, off ice, per 60 Minutes: 2.16 Vancouver's 53 points > Toronto's 45 Vancouver's 2.24 GAA > Toronto's 2.78 GAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Karlsson contract was signed under the old CBA, and was an RFA deal, so I don't really consider it comparable. Two very different players at different stages in their career. I certainly would take Karlsson over Phaneuf, but its a hard comparison to make. As to the Leafs having no legitimate top 4, I'd have to argue that. Mark Fraser and Paul Ranger are certainly AHL fodder, and absolutely the worst Leafs this season, but I believe Gunnarsson is a good defenceman. He's had injury trouble of late but still gets the job done. He's certainly no top pairing guy however. I don't even want to talk about Cody Franson, CDCs most overrated player. He's an effective puck mover at times but a defensive travesty. I'll be happy to see him gone. The Leafs relied heavily on Grabovski and MacArthur to pick up the defensive responsibilites of an insufficient D core, but now that they're gone the Leafs lack a true top pairing D and number 1 center before they can be taken seriously as a contender. I never compared the contracts, I was just replying to Kovy's statement about Karlsson being compared to Dion. Gunnarsson is a solid 3/4 guy, yeah. The rest are trash though. Reilly can't develop fast enough lol. Yeah, losing those 2 for nothing and gaining Clarkson and re-upping Bozak have causes most of the Leafs issues this season. lol Franson is a good PP guy who can play on your bottom-pair, not much else to be said about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboose Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I never compared the contracts, I was just replying to Kovy's statement about Karlsson being compared to Dion. Gunnarsson is a solid 3/4 guy, yeah. The rest are trash though. Reilly can't develop fast enough lol. Yeah, losing those 2 for nothing and gaining Clarkson and re-upping Bozak have causes most of the Leafs issues this season. lol Franson is a good PP guy who can play on your bottom-pair, not much else to be said about him. The Clarkson signing may go down as one of the worst in NHL history. My ideal lineup would have been: JVR - Kadri - Kessel Lupul - Grabovski - MaCarthur Kulemin - Bolland - Frattin McLaren - McClement - Orr Phaneuf - X Gunnarsson - Gardiner Rielly - Franson Reimer Scrivens Use the cap saved by not signing Bozak, Clarkson to sign a top pairing D, or acquire one through trade. Buy out Liles instead of Grabovski and all the cap problems are solved. SMH Nonis, SMH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Phaneuf is having a good season, and it's not like they were just gonna let him go, so $7mil per for a TO 'star' was inevitable. If they think Kessel is an elite superstar over there, then it's easy for them to believe that Phaneuf is a perpetual Norris-calibre d-man. Truth is he's slow and he's just going to get slower. So there will be a time when he's eventually McCabed and Kaberled out of town. Kessel and Phaneuf, along with a lot of other Nonis-era TO players, were rewarded with big contracts for accomplishing jack friggin' squat. Typical TO. Thinking they're better than what they actually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyllenhaal Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 HAHA 7 mllion for phaneuf... he's only slightly better than Garrison, such an overpayment good job Nonis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Hamhuis has a better shot at Team Canada than Phaneuf, imho. Hamhuis can skate. And Garrison's, Bieksa's and even Edler's contracts are far more bang for the buck. But i had to lol when some person went ahead and compared Dion to Suter and Chara to Phaneuf using some crappy stats. Suter and Chara are legit studs. Phaneuf is a tier below them. While hey can lay the odd big, and often cheap, hit, he also finds himself out of position quite a bit and has never been all that difficult to score on. You'd have to really put the blinders on to put Dion in the same tier as those guys with a straight face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 The Clarkson signing may go down as one of the worst in NHL history. My ideal lineup would have been: JVR - Kadri - Kessel Lupul - Grabovski - MaCarthur Kulemin - Bolland - Frattin McLaren - McClement - Orr Phaneuf - X Gunnarsson - Gardiner Rielly - Franson Reimer Scrivens Use the cap saved by not signing Bozak, Clarkson to sign a top pairing D, or acquire one through trade. Buy out Liles instead of Grabovski and all the cap problems are solved. SMH Nonis, SMH. The team Burke built was solid and only needed a couple upgrades. Nonis came in and pretty much ruined it like he did to every other team he GM'd. What Nonis should've done is either let Bozak walk or sign him to about a million less, package Kadri for a two-way center and sign a defenceman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Kovalchuk. Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Vancouver's 53 points > Toronto's 45 Vancouver's 2.24 GAA > Toronto's 2.78 GAA lol, does this thread say "who's the better hockey club?" No, so why are you brining up something that has absolutely nothing to do with discussion, oh wait because it is CDC. We are talking about the player Dion Phaneuf compared to the players Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison. No where does it say team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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