[Official] Toronto Blue Jays Major League Baseball thread

[ChuckNORRIS4Cup]

So jays sign a catcher, first reaction excited does this mean a Dickey and Thole trade...... Then my 2nd reaction is the cheap side, he better not be trading Martin....

[RUPERTKBD]

13 hours ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

Yeah it sucks that we grossly overpaid to acquire him but it also sucks that we overpaid to retain him. He gets crap for run support, but other pitchers with similar run support fare better than he does while making considerably less money. 

 

There's value I'm eating innings, sure, but that can just as easily be done by committee and for much less money. Chavez, Floyd, and a multitude of free agents that were available in the winter have experience as starters and would've cost less. Hell, what about hutch? None of those are front of the line starters by any means but they couldn't be much worse, it at al. After today his ERA is well over 4, closer to 5, and his WHIP is pretty crap too. His pitcher dependent stats (namely BB and HR's, strikeouts don't mean much to a knuckleballer) are the pits. Sure he brings some less tangible things to the table, such as experience and veteran presence, but even then I don't fully buy into it. His playoff experience is all of two starts where he didn't fare well, and his veteran wisdom is limited in what he can offer to the youngsters too. He can teach them things about composure, presence, etc but he can't relate to them the same way a veteran conventional pitcher could (such as Hawkins, for example). 

 

I just don't think there's any way you can justify what they pay him. That's not an indigent the on him as much as it is management, but I would've preferred they simply not retain him unless it was for no more than roughly half of what they're paying him now.

Once again, you're arguing about money and engaging in 20/20 hindsight.

 

At the beginning of the season, 200+ innings was worth what Dickey was making and all they had to do was pick up a club option, rather than going out and trying to sign these hypothetical pitchers that you claim the Jays could have had for less money.

 

Chavez? Floyd? Do you really think those two would have been better options? They're not even cutting it as relievers.

 

In any event, my argument wasn't even intended to claim that Dickey was value for his contract. It was in opposition to the comments that we see here whenever he has a bad start. ("Trash", "garbage", "retire", etc.)

 

I notice that not one of you responded to the fact that he was going on 3 days rest, so that the top three starters could go against the O's....

[Sean Monahan]

54 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Once again, you're arguing about money and engaging in 20/20 hindsight.

 

At the beginning of the season, 200+ innings was worth what Dickey was making and all they had to do was pick up a club option, rather than going out and trying to sign these hypothetical pitchers that you claim the Jays could have had for less money.

 

Chavez? Floyd? Do you really think those two would have been better options? They're not even cutting it as relievers.

 

In any event, my argument wasn't even intended to claim that Dickey was value for his contract. It was in opposition to the comments that we see here whenever he has a bad start. ("Trash", "garbage", "retire", etc.)

 

I notice that not one of you responded to the fact that he was going on 3 days rest, so that the top three starters could go against the O's....

And I clearly stated that my issue with him is the money he's being paid, didn't I? I simply don't think he's worth it. 

 

As for the bolded, you're using hindsight yourself. Last year Chavez had a very respectable year- better than Dickey's having now-  and threw 157 innings. Hutch was very solid at home. I don't see how a platoon of the two of them couldn't have done the job. Other than the fact Dickey can eat innings you're looking at an incredibly average pitcher, probably less than that, and he's making double what those two make combined. These are very unimpressive numbers even with the good stretch he had before the all-star break.

 

I'll be the first to acknowledge his success when he pitches well- I did so in that stretch before the all-star break. And yeah it's great he pitched on short rest. That's a team-first guy, a quality in him that I've acknowledged. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have fared much better on full rest with the way SD has been hitting, particularly hitting off-speed. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Wild Sean Monahan

[ShakyWalton]

2 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said:

So jays sign a catcher, first reaction excited does this mean a Dickey and Thole trade...... Then my 2nd reaction is the cheap side, he better not be trading Martin....

who is the catcher they signed?

[Standing_Tall#37]

12 minutes ago, ShakyWalton said:

who is the catcher they signed?

Erik Kratz

[ShakyWalton]

3 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

Erik Kratz

Hmmm..he is back again..he is better than Thole..Ill give him that.

[RUPERTKBD]

1 hour ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

And I clearly stated that my issue with him is the money he's being paid, didn't I? I simply don't think he's worth it. 

 

As for the bolded, you're using hindsight yourself. Last year Chavez had a very respectable year- better than Dickey's having now-  and threw 157 innings. Hutch was very solid at home. I don't see how a platoon of the two of them couldn't have done the job. Other than the fact Dickey can eat innings you're looking at an incredibly average pitcher, probably less than that, and he's making double what those two make combined. These are very unimpressive numbers even with the good stretch he had before the all-star break.

 

I'll be the first to acknowledge his success when he pitches well- I did so in that stretch before the all-star break. And yeah it's great he pitched on short rest. That's a team-first guy, a quality in him that I've acknowledged. I'd be willing to bet he wouldn't have fared much better on full rest with the way SD has been hitting, particularly hitting off-speed. 

So, are you saying that your previous post wasn't directed at me? Because it sure looked like it was.

 

If money is your only problem with him, then we really have no argument. My post was directed at those referring to him as "trash" and wishing that he'd retired instead of Buehrle.

 

As far as Chavez vs. Dickey goes, your comparison doesn't work. If we're going on last season's stats for Chavez, then we have to do the same for Dickey. Last year, Dickey's numbers were much better than Jesse's. Better W/L, Better ERA, better WHIP, more innings pitched.....same with Hutch.

 

Honestly, I can't really see any metric whereby at the start of the season, you could have looked at last year's numbers and decided we were better off with Hutch, Chavez, or a reclamation project like Gavin Floyd, instead of RA Dickey.

 

If you did so, I'd say congratulations on your clairvoyance and I'd love to see the post that you made to that effect.

[Sean Monahan]

43 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

So, are you saying that your previous post wasn't directed at me? Because it sure looked like it was.

 

If money is your only problem with him, then we really have no argument. My post was directed at those referring to him as "trash" and wishing that he'd retired instead of Buehrle.

 

As far as Chavez vs. Dickey goes, your comparison doesn't work. If we're going on last season's stats for Chavez, then we have to do the same for Dickey. Last year, Dickey's numbers were much better than Jesse's. Better W/L, Better ERA, better WHIP, more innings pitched.....same with Hutch.

 

Honestly, I can't really see any metric whereby at the start of the season, you could have looked at last year's numbers and decided we were better off with Hutch, Chavez, or a reclamation project like Gavin Floyd, instead of RA Dickey.

 

If you did so, I'd say congratulations on your clairvoyance and I'd love to see the post that you made to that effect.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I believe I stated in a post a page or two back that I have no problem with him as a back-of-the-rotation guy but I think he's pretty severely overpaid. Consider the team is paying him as much as Happ and Estrada I believe. I would've had no issue with them retaining dickey at that lower price. If that wasn't possible, which it apparently wasn't, I would've preferred to see them go with an option similar to what I've proposed. Floyd was a stretch, I was naming him solely because he's in the organization anyway. I still think Chav and Hutch would've been a perfectly adequate tandem to handle the starts for the fifth spot in the rotation and much cheaper too. How does it make sense to pay a 4/5 guy that kind of money? That was clearly his role with Stro, Estrada, and Happ signed. I suppose he was insurance if Happ and Sanchez didn't work out, but I imagine they we're very confident in Happ given the money they gave him. I'll give you this- you can rest assured knowing what you'll get from Dickey, and there's something to be said for that. 

 

They could've pursued more name-brand free agents as well. Doug Fister would've been an option. Injured last year but effective and typically eats innings, on pace to throw similar innings to Dickey- at only 7 million. Not to mention he's a sinker baller- much better suited to the Rogers Centre. We've discussed Gallardo in the past as well, and if this conversation was taking place in December I think we would've been much happier going that route.

[RUPERTKBD]

3 minutes ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. I believe I stated in a post a page or two back that I have no problem with him as a back-of-the-rotation guy but I think he's pretty severely overpaid. Consider the team is paying him as much as Happ and Estrada I believe. I would've had no issue with them retaining dickey at that lower price. If that wasn't possible, which it apparently wasn't, I would've preferred to see them go with an option similar to what I've proposed. Floyd was a stretch, I was naming him solely because he's in the organization anyway. I still think Chav and Hutch would've been a perfectly adequate tandem to handle the starts for the fifth spot in the rotation and much cheaper too. How does it make sense to pay a 4/5 guy that kind of money? That was clearly his role with Stro, Estrada, and Happ signed. I suppose he was insurance if Happ and Sanchez didn't work out, but I imagine they we're very confident in Happ given the money they gave him. I'll give you this- you can rest assured knowing what you'll get from Dickey, and there's something to be said for that. 

 

They could've pursued more name-brand free agents as well. Doug Fister would've been an option. Injured last year but effective and typically eats innings, on pace to throw similar innings to Dickey- at only 7 million. Not to mention he's a sinker baller- much better suited to the Rogers Centre. We've discussed Gallardo in the past as well, and if this conversation was taking place in December I think we would've been much happier going that route.

I disagree. Stro was expected to be the ace, but they had no idea what to expect from Sanchez. (I'd say they were pleasantly surprised)

 

There's a reason Dickey was in the #2 slot in the rotation at the beginning of the season. As I said, based on last season's numbers, it's where he belonged. It's pretty easy to look at it now and say it was a mistake, but again, that's hindsight.

 

Question: Do you recall a single analyst saying that picking up Dickey's option was a mistake? Davidi? Blair? Buck and Tabby? Anyone? (Besides the experts here on CDC, I mean)

[Standing_Tall#37]

7 minutes ago, Wild Sean Monahan said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. I believe I stated in a post a page or two back that I have no problem with him as a back-of-the-rotation guy but I think he's pretty severely overpaid. Consider the team is paying him as much as Happ and Estrada I believe. I would've had no issue with them retaining dickey at that lower price. If that wasn't possible, which it apparently wasn't, I would've preferred to see them go with an option similar to what I've proposed. Floyd was a stretch, I was naming him solely because he's in the organization anyway. I still think Chav and Hutch would've been a perfectly adequate tandem to handle the starts for the fifth spot in the rotation and much cheaper too. How does it make sense to pay a 4/5 guy that kind of money? That was clearly his role with Stro, Estrada, and Happ signed. I suppose he was insurance if Happ and Sanchez didn't work out, but I imagine they we're very confident in Happ given the money they gave him. I'll give you this- you can rest assured knowing what you'll get from Dickey, and there's something to be said for that. 

 

They could've pursued more name-brand free agents as well. Doug Fister would've been an option. Injured last year but effective and typically eats innings, on pace to throw similar innings to Dickey- at only 7 million. Not to mention he's a sinker baller- much better suited to the Rogers Centre. We've discussed Gallardo in the past as well, and if this conversation was taking place in December I think we would've been much happier going that route.

I woulda liked have both and have a rotation that was;

 

Stroman

Sanchez

Estrada

Fister

Gallardo

 

 ( Happ for long relief... Although he's surprised me now a good way this year)

 

Dickey in the BP... 

 

But as long as we're content to just be in the wild card hunt and play 1 game in the playoffs, this is good too.

[ShakyWalton]

1 minute ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I disagree. Stro was expected to be the ace, but they had no idea what to expect from Sanchez. (I'd say they were pleasantly surprised)

 

There's a reason Dickey was in the #2 slot in the rotation at the beginning of the season. As I said, based on last season's numbers, it's where he belonged. It's pretty easy to look at it now and say it was a mistake, but again, that's hindsight.

 

Question: Do you recall a single analyst saying that picking up Dickey's option was a mistake? Davidi? Blair? Buck and Tabby? Anyone? (Besides the experts here on CDC, I mean)

Jesus man..give it a rest.. since when does your opinion means  more than others, and then you insult people like they know sh%$ because they stated how they feel....people have a right to voice their displeasure with Dickey or any player ..I dont know too many that would opt to keep the guy or like his body of work...he is overpaid and cost to much to acquire...so you think he is worth the price others dont..I agree he isnt trash.but I never liked the trade from day 1 and he never lived up to the hype from his Cy Young year...he is an innings eater..and seems like a nice guy and team man...thats not enough for most.

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, ShakyWalton said:

Jesus man..give it a rest.. since when does your opinion means  more than others, and then you insult people like they know sh%$ because they stated how they feel....people have a right to voice their displeasure with Dickey or any player ..I dont know too many that would opt to keep the guy or like his body of work...he is overpaid and cost to much to acquire...so you think he is worth the price others dont..I agree he isnt trash.but I never liked the trade from day 1 and he never lived up to the hype from his Cy Young year...he is an innings eater..and seems like a nice guy and team man...thats not enough for most.

When did I say my opinion meant more than anyone else's? I'm arguing a point that everyone else disagrees with. What I asked was if anyone could find an actual opinion from someone who works in the baseball industry that says it was a mistake to retain Dickey in the off-season.

 

I didn't ever argue money, other than to say that when the option was picked up, Dickey's salary was commensurate with his stats.

[RUPERTKBD]

16 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

I woulda liked have both and have a rotation that was;

 

Stroman

Sanchez

Estrada

Fister

Gallardo

 

 ( Happ for long relief... Although he's surprised me now a good way this year)

 

Dickey in the BP... 

 

But as long as we're content to just be in the wild card hunt and play 1 game in the playoffs, this is good too.

This kind of comment honestly surprises me.

 

We're actually in better shape than we were at this point last season. The big difference is we don't have Price, but we didn't have Happ last year either and DP's playoff numbers are lousy.

[Fantomex]

3 minutes ago, ShakyWalton said:

Jesus man..give it a rest.. since when does your opinion means  more than others, and then you insult people like they know sh%$ because they stated how they feel....people have a right to voice their displeasure with Dickey or any player ..I dont know too many that would opt to keep the guy or like his body of work...he is overpaid and cost to much to acquire...so you think he is worth the price others dont..I agree he isnt trash.but I never liked the trade from day 1 and he never lived up to the hype from his Cy Young year...he is an innings eater..and seems like a nice guy and team man...thats not enough for most.

I'd just like to add a few points here Wally. The last few years the game has really changed to a young players game. Look at the All-Star game starting rosters. I have nothing against Dickey but other than his knuckle ball, he doesn't have anything special to show teams, and if you've watched enough of his games this year (like I have) you'd see that teams seem to figure it out their 2nd time through the line-up. To make matters worse for the guy, if his knuckler isn't dancing in the zone, GOOD NIGHT! He gets hit around like a piñata at a birthday party! His mechanics have been very inconsistent this year, which have led to walks and multi-run homers. Maybe he can turn it around and have a great finish to his season, but beyond that I can't see how he's worth keeping in the fold other than maybe going into the pen.

[ShakyWalton]

Just now, RUPERTKBD said:

When did I say my opinion meant more than anyone else's? I'm arguing a point that everyone else disagrees with. What I asked was if anyone could find an actual opinion from someone who works in the baseball industry that says it was a mistake to retain Dickey in the off-season.

 

I didn't ever argue money, other than to say that when the option was picked up, Dickey's salary was commensurate with his stats.

His salary was comm

 

3 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

When did I say my opinion meant more than anyone else's? I'm arguing a point that everyone else disagrees with. What I asked was if anyone could find an actual opinion from someone who works in the baseball industry that says it was a mistake to retain Dickey in the off-season.

 

I didn't ever argue money, other than to say that when the option was picked up, Dickey's salary was commensurate with his stats.

His salary is commensurate with his one Cy Young year..which TO jumped on and signed him..since then his best stat is IP..his ERA is generaly close to 5.00 for the last 4 years..which tells me he eats those inning but gives up lots of runs..its a non starter..I cant wait for his contract top be done..others like him.

[Sean Monahan]

21 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I disagree. Stro was expected to be the ace, but they had no idea what to expect from Sanchez. (I'd say they were pleasantly surprised)

 

There's a reason Dickey was in the #2 slot in the rotation at the beginning of the season. As I said, based on last season's numbers, it's where he belonged. It's pretty easy to look at it now and say it was a mistake, but again, that's hindsight.

 

Question: Do you recall a single analyst saying that picking up Dickey's option was a mistake? Davidi? Blair? Buck and Tabby? Anyone? (Besides the experts here on CDC, I mean)

Sanchez being a pleasant surprise is what I said, isn't it? the organization didn't know what they would have in him. You've ignored that I listed Happ and Estrada ahead of dickey.

 

I disagree regarding the depth chart ranking as well. I still believe Happ and Estrada were considered to be ahead of dickey based on last season. Happ is debatable but it seems (to me at least) that the organization acquired him based largely on his time in Pittsburgh, not his entire body of work. 

 

I don't recall anybody being critical of the team retaining him but I do recall some criticism of the numbers. They could've declined the option and negotiated a new contract. If that didn't work then there was other options to explore in free agency. Again, I think he deserves a spot at the end of the rotation (that much is obvious) and I believe that we saw that's where he'd end up with Stro, Happ, and Estrada around. Sanchez is just gravy. 

[Standing_Tall#37]

6 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

This kind of comment honestly surprises me.

 

We're actually in better shape than we were at this point last season. The big difference is we don't have Price, but we didn't have Happ last year either and DP's playoff numbers are lousy.

The thing is, The Os weren't this good and the Red Sox young guys were a year less developed. Yankees faulted slightly this year and had a slow start but what are they now... 4...5 games back from us now. I just don't see it being as easy to get there this year and I don't see our current staff holding up ( Sanchez with his youth, Estrada with his Back and Dickey with his home run derby-esq performances every 3/4 starts... I think we're seeing him being old as dirt becoming a factor) yes we may get into a wild card game, but I don't know if Happ will be at an elite pitcher level that we'd need to win a one game playoff...

[RUPERTKBD]

4 minutes ago, ShakyWalton said:

His salary was comm

 

His salary is commensurate with his one Cy Young year..which TO jumped on and signed him..since then his best stat is IP..his ERA is generaly close to 5.00 for the last 4 years..which tells me he eats those inning but gives up lots of runs..its a non starter..I cant wait for his contract top be done..others like him.

Disagree. He makes about the same amount as Ubaldo Jiminez, Scott Kazmir, Jorge De la Rosa, Matt Garza, Gio Gonzalez, Ricky Nolasco, Mike Leake and Jamie Garcia. Some of those guys are having better seasons and some worse, but as far as what he makes for what he did last year, I'd say it's about right.

 

BTW: His numbers are better than Gallardo's.

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

The thing is, The Os weren't this good and the Red Sox young guys were a year less developed. Yankees faulted slightly this year and had a slow start but what are they now... 4...5 games back from us now. I just don't see it being as easy to get there this year and I don't see our current staff holding up ( Sanchez with his youth, Estrada with his Back and Dickey with his home run derby-esq performances every 3/4 starts... I think we're seeing him being old as dirt becoming a factor) yes we may get into a wild card game, but I don't know if Happ will be at an elite pitcher level that we'd need to win a one game playoff...

I agree that the division is better than least season, I just don't see it as justification for the pessimism that seems to permeate the thread.

[Standing_Tall#37]

2 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I agree that the division is better than least season, I just don't see it as justification for the pessimism that seems to permeate the thread.

I'm not pessimistic, I'm more realilistic. It is what it is. I don't build myself up for a major disappointment.  If they exceed my expectations, great I'll support them. If we meet or don't make my lowered expectations, oh well at least I supported this team even if I felt from about 40 games in that this wouldn't be a successful year.