[Report] Subban seeking $8.5 M in arbitration, Habs offer $5.25 M

[nowhereman]

That is not how you treat your star Norris-winning defenseman. And it's not like the guy is asking for the moon either. Just lock the guy up long-term already.

[-SN-]

This thread is painful. It's like nobody reads any posts but their own.

[cdubuya]

You need to do your homework on arbitration. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I know what and how arbitration works. There would be no need for it if GMs used offer sheets. But they won't do it so they have to get down and dirty in arbitration.

[AriGold]

This thread is painful. It's like nobody reads any posts but their own.

Time for me to find my old thread i created a few years ago.

[Mustapha]

he signed the bridge contract and proved himself and he did. now they want him to sign to be a bargain basement deal. i really hope the arbitrator gives him a one year deal with UFA status at the end then he can get away from a organization thats treated him like cr-p or make them pay 9mill next season or sign elsewhere for 7 just to return the mismanagement bs of this superstar elite d-man.

if pk signs the one year deal from the habs they still have him over the barrel since he still only has arbitration rights next summer so the habs can again lowball him. an arbitrator can award him a 1 or 2 year with ufa status at the end of the term. theres no benefit for him to sign anything the habs offer unless its two season at which point he has UFA eligibility.

this is how not to treat a franchise player.

Subban might be talented, but he's not a 'superstar elite d-man' and it's still too early to consider him a 'franchise player'.

He had a couple great years. Lots of defensemen have had similar seasons (Karlsson and Weber are just two examples of many) and in Weber's case he's been great for much longer.

People just latch on to Subban because of his charisma and swagger, and the fact that he's a great offensive defenseman who plays a flashy, hardhitting style.

He isn't a complete player IMO. His defensive play needs a ton of work, and until he can play consistently at both ends of the ice, he could easily end up like Mike Green in Washington. If he doesn't produce the points, he becomes a liability with inconsistent defensive zone play, giveaways and stupid penalties.

If there is a defenseman in the NHL worth 8.5 million, it's not Subban.

[AriGold]

If you are uncertain of what or how arbitration means here is a piece I wrote up a few years ago... I keep brining it back to life when people don't understand the process. After skimming this thread I think it is useful here !

--------------------

NHL salary arbitration is a tool available to settle some contract disputes. The player and team each propose a salary for the coming season, and argue their cases at a hearing. The arbitrator, a neutral third party, then sets the player's salary. Most players must have four years of NHL experience before they are eligible for salary arbitration (the term is reduced for those who signed their first NHL contract after the age of 20). The process is used by restricted free agents, because it is one of the few bargaining options available to them.

The deadline for players to request salary arbitration is July 5, with cases heard in late July and early August. A player and team can continue to negotiate up until the date of the hearing, in hopes of agreeing on a contract and avoiding the arbitration process.

Teams can also ask for salary arbitration. But a player can be taken to arbitration only once in his career, and can never receive less than 85 per-cent of his previous year's salary. There are no such restrictions on the number of times a player can ask for arbitration, or the size of the salary awarded. A decision must be made within 48 hours of the hearing. When the decision is announced, the team has the right to decline, or "walk away" from the award. If the team exercises this right, the player can declare himself an unrestricted free agent.


Salary Arbitration Proceedings
Every arbitration hearing begins at 9:00 a.m. EDT with the side who filed presenting their case first, followed by the other party. The same order continues for the ensuing rebuttals. Each party is allowed at most 90 minutes total, and they can allocate that time as they wish between their opening arguments and rebuttal.

The filing party is entitled to an additional 10 minutes for surrebuttal only if the opposing side brings up new issues or comparable players (those who are similar in statistics and game, and potentially in contract terms) in their rebuttal.

The evidence that can be used in arbitration cases:
The player's "overall performance" including statistics in all previous seasons.
Injuries, illnesses and the number of games played.
The player's length of service with the team and in the NHL.
The player's "overall contribution" to the team's success or failure.
The player's "special qualities of leadership or public appeal."
The performance and salary of any player alleged to be "comparable" to the player in the dispute.
Comparable players (an arbiter cannot deem another player comparable unless he has been mentioned by one of the parties)

Evidence that is not admissible:

The salary and performance of a "comparable" player who signed a contract as an unrestricted free agent.
Testimonials, video and media reports.
The financial state of the team.
The salary cap and the state of the team's payroll.
Contracts of players not mentioned as comparable players
Past contract offers or negotiations between the player and the team

Arbitration Decisions and Awards
Once an arbitration hearing comes to a close, the arbiter must come to a resolution within the next 48 hours. When his decision is made, there are four key points that must be included: the term of the contract (generally one year, occasionally two years), the salary, any minor league clauses and salary (the latter if applicable), and an explanation of the decision as well as which comparable players were used in consideration.
The team then has an additional two days to consider the ruling before either signing the player to the arbiter-imposed contract or choosing to walk away, leaving the player as an unrestricted free agent.

How NHL Teams and Players can Avoid Arbitration
The preference on both sides of the negotiating table is generally to reach a deal before the scheduled arbitration hearing date, and more often than not that is exactly what happens.From 2007 through 2009, 67 players had filed but only 14 had actually presented their case before an arbiter.

http://forum.canucks.com/topic/348599-dale-weise-aribtration-set-for-july-31st-also-arbitration-explained/?hl=arbitration

[cdubuya]

Did you bother reading the rest of this thread? The $5.25m "offer" by Montreal is only the number the submitted to the arbitrator for a one year deal in the unlikely event that they don't come to an agreement prior to arbitration. It has NOTHING to do with Montreal's ongoing negotiation with Subban to sign him to a long term deal before arbitration.

I didn't read through the whole thread. I don't care if that's their one year arbitration offer. That's an insult. 6.5 million is a low ball. In this new cap era superstars will be getting 10 millionish. Pk played ball with their stupid bridge contract game and now its time for them to pay him his value. I'd have no problem with PK on my team for 8-9 mill long term.

[Mustapha]

I didn't read through the whole thread. I don't care if that's their one year arbitration offer. That's an insult. 6.5 million is a low ball. In this new cap era superstars will be getting 10 millionish. Pk played ball with their stupid bridge contract game and now its time for them to pay him his value. I'd have no problem with PK on my team for 8-9 mill long term.

I would rather let him walk and sign 2 defensemen who could actually play defense for 4.5 million each.

[AriGold]

I didn't read through the whole thread. I don't care if that's their one year arbitration offer. That's an insult. 6.5 million is a low ball. In this new cap era superstars will be getting 10 millionish. Pk played ball with their stupid bridge contract game and now its time for them to pay him his value. I'd have no problem with PK on my team for 8-9 mill long term.

You completely don't understand this process.

Example; If you go to Mexico and see a necklace you want from a street vendor do you accept the $10 asking price or would you offer $5 to see if he says yes ?

[Ryan Strome]

I didn't read through the whole thread. I don't care if that's their one year arbitration offer. That's an insult. 6.5 million is a low ball. In this new cap era superstars will be getting 10 millionish. Pk played ball with their stupid bridge contract game and now its time for them to pay him his value. I'd have no problem with PK on my team for 8-9 mill long term.

Wow you still don't get it.

[cdubuya]

You completely don't understand this process.

Example; If you go to Mexico and see a necklace you want from a street vendor do you accept the $10 asking price or would you offer $5 to see if he says yes ?

I can't understand you people. You don't have to agree with me but I don't get how you can't at least see my point. I understand how negotiating works. I know how arbitration goes. I've been on these boards for over 10 years. I remember the may ray arbitration. Shea Weber.

But my point is 5.25 is absurd and if I was PK I'd be upset. If he only wants 8.5 he should be locked to by now.

[AriGold]

I can't understand you people. You don't have to agree with me but I don't get how you can't at least see my point. I understand how negotiating works. I know how arbitration goes. I've been on these boards for over 10 years. I remember the may ray arbitration. Shea Weber.

But my point is 5.25 is absurd and if I was PK I'd be upset. If he only wants 8.5 he should be locked to by now.

No you don't, if you did then you would understand the 5.25M.

[DrJockitch]

You completely don't understand this process.

Example; If you go to Mexico and see a necklace you want from a street vendor do you accept the $10 asking price or would you offer $5 to see if he says yes ?

Man if you are offering half in Mexico you are overpaying. In Mexico I would start at $1. Dominican maybe $3. Half though crazy.

I think by the comparable players the Habs submitted make more sense than the ones PK could. For RFA d-men there just isn't a comparable at 8.5, where Yandle, OEL, Keith and Seabrook are all under $6M and Karlson is 6.5 and Dowdie 7. Not sure where PK gets his comps from, young franchise forwards like Crosby, Getzlaf and Perry.

Those who are so critical of PK, the kid was one of the most exciting hockey players I have seen in a long time in the Bruins series. Every time he touched the puck it seemed like something was going to happen for the Habs. Plus he knocked out the bruins almost on his own. The Canucks have never had a defence man that even approaches this guys talent and game. I think half the complaints about hime especially the "swag" are racial in nature. He is a hard working kid that his teammates reportedly love. He is only getting better.

He is worth whatever he wants, the negotiation should be convincing him to stay for as long as possible and try to convince him to leave money on the table so they can build the team around him.

[BeefcakeBo]

It's hilarious how many people can't grasp the concept of Arbitration. I'd say it may be a hopeless cause trying to explain to some people on here. Seems like it's been clearly laid out in this thread like 10 times.

[Ryan Strome]

It's hilarious how many people can't grasp the concept of Arbitration. I'd say it may be a hopeless cause trying to explain to some people on here. Seems like it's been clearly laid out in this thread like 10 times.

Some on Cdc make it impossible to explain common sense. Furthermore, most on cdc can't name 10 player's on the Canucks let alone have knowledge of the Nhl and its day to day operations with regards to arbitration, contracts, free agency, drafts etc.

[Neversummer]

Anyone want to predict the outcome of this? Apparently, it is scheduled for 9:00 am which means, less than 12 hours to go.

[CanucksFanMike]

Anyone want to predict the outcome of this? Apparently, it is scheduled for 9:00 am which means, less than 12 hours to go.

I have no doubts that this is going to arbitration and that Subban will win.

[Neversummer]

I have no doubts that this is going to arbitration and that Subban will win.

I thought they would settle on a long term contract at 8:59 am.

[CanucksFanMike]

I thought they would settle on a long term contract at 8:59 am.

haha you never know!!

[guntrix]

No, it means they don't want to get bent over so they throw a low number out there so that they can settle on something somewhere in the middle.

Arbitration doesn't take the two offers though and settles 'somewhere in the middle.' Arbitration places the value on how much it is believed that the athlete is worth, offers notwithstanding. Otherwise, teams would offer ridiculously low offers in the hopes of getting a steal of a price.

For this reason, I do think that Montreal's offer was ridiculously low and possibly insulting. The fact that they've taken this long and haven't even come to a deal means that they're not 'throwing higher numbers' at his agent. These cheap francophones actually think he's not worth that much. They simply don't deserve him.