Mainly Mattias Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Quote http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-11/disappearances-in-china-highlight-ruling-party-detention-system The baffling disappearance of Chinese executives in recent weeks has drawn attention to the ruling Communist Party’s practice of holding people incommunicado either as targets of investigations themselves or to help with probes of others. The most recent example came last night, when Caixin magazine reported that Guo Guangchang, the billionaire chairman of Fosun International Ltd. couldn’t be contacted. Fosun suspended its shares today and its bonds plunged by a record before the company said Guo was assisting justice authorities with a probe. Other high profile cases in recent weeks included two members of Citic Securities’ executive committee who became unreachable earlier this month, along with Yim Fung, the chief executive officer of Guotai Junan Securities Co. The Chinese word for unreachable -- shilian, which means “lost contact” -- has become a euphemism in China for the party holding executives and officials for questioning or arrest, often indefinitely and at an undisclosed location. That practice has long been criticized by human rights activists who say the lack of transparency and accountability opens the door to abuses such as torture. Corruption Campaign The detentions, known as “shuanggui” if the party detains one of its members and “shuangzhi” if a non-party member is held as part of a probe, has featured prominently in President Xi Jinping’s campaign to root out corruption that he says is now rife in the ranks of the party’s more than 87 million members. People can be detained even if they are not the target of a probe themselves. Sohu.com reported today that Guo was helping with a corruption investigation into former Shanghai vice mayor Ai Baojun. Fosun didn’t specify the subject of the probe, other than to say Guo will be able to participate in the company’s decisions on “substantial issues.” The Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, the agency leading the anti-corruption campaign, didn’t respond to a fax seeking comment. The main problem with the practice is that it isn’t transparent, said Zhu Lijia, a professor of public policy at the Chinese Academy of Governance. “Nobody really knows what happens inside the room, and that’s dangerous without regulations,” Zhu said. Forced Confessions Some officials who were later convicted in courts of law have spoken out about their experience in party detention. Bo Xilai, a senior party official who is serving life behind bars for bribery, said during his trial that he was forced to make confessions during interrogations. Liu Han, who was executed this year for crimes including murder, said in court last year that he’d been tortured and beaten by investigators to force him to confess. In 2013, a Chinese court sentenced five investigators with the party’s anti-corruption watchdog, the CCDI, to prison terms over the death of a company executive who died in their custody. An official with the Zhejiang prosecutor’s office was also sentenced. Sometimes, the people detained are quietly released without charges. Lei Jie, the former chairman of Founder Securities Co. and its joint venture with Credit Suisse Group AG, was released a few months ago from police custody after going missing in January, a person with knowledge of the matter said in November. Jie’s release came after he assisted with a government probe, said the person, who asked not to be identified because there was no formal announcement of the move. ‘Short Vacation’ Li Yifei, chairwoman of hedge fund Man Group’s China unit, was taken into custody to help with an investigation into market volatility, a person familiar with the matter said in August. Li later told Bloomberg she was back from a “series of meetings” and a short vacation, denying the report she had assisted a police probe into market volatility. Xi’s anti-corruption campaign has increasingly focused on the finance industry and related companies in an expanding government crackdown following a $5 trillion summer stock market rout. Senior officials at some of the country’s top brokerages have been investigated for alleged insider trading and stock manipulation as China intensifies probes into strategies authorities suspect may have exacerbated the selloff that started in June. “It could take a while for the inspectors to inform the company or the family members if a person is under party’s custody, and normally during that period the company can only say the person is not reachable,” said Zhu Lijia, a professor of public policy at the Chinese Academy of Governance. “That’s because the disciplinary apparatus fears if they inform others, the company or family members would destroy evidence, or transfer illicit assets.” Fosun International’s business operations “remain normal,” spokesperson Chen Bo said today in a text message. Its shares will reopen on Dec. 14, the company said late tonight. Anti-corruption: Good. Non-transparency & forced confessions: Bad. 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inane Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Communist country is communist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugor Hill Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 12 minutes ago, inane said: Communist country is communist. It's not so much Communism per se. Communism is just a form of resource distribution. it's totalitarian dictatorship where citizens have no human rights. You can have a Capitalist system under a dictatorship. The most well known one (to me) is the Chinese Nationalist party in the 30's before Mao won the revolution in the late 40's. And I believe Franco's Spain counts too though I don't know the details of that economic system too well. EDIT: Actually what am I saying? Today's China is essentially Capitalist economy under a dictatorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Not surprising. Just go on youtube and checkout the channel China Uncensored.... lots of stories that the CPC tries to cover up. Arresting and locking up people without any due process, persecution of certain groups of people, bribing and influencing Western officials (especially Canada), etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 8 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said: It's not so much Communism per se. Communism is just a form of resource distribution. it's totalitarian dictatorship where citizens have no human rights. You can have a Capitalist system under a dictatorship. The most well known one (to me) is the Chinese Nationalist party in the 30's before Mao won the revolution in the late 40's. And I believe Franco's Spain counts too though I don't know the details of that economic system too well. Whatever, you get my point. We've just ignored the fact that our number one economic buddy in Asia is a gong show of environmental destruction and human rights violations because $$$. Why anyone would be surprised or even that this kind of thing is news doesn't make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugor Hill Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 1 minute ago, inane said: Whatever, you get my point. We've just ignored the fact that our number one economic buddy in Asia is a gong show of environmental destruction and human rights violations because $$$. Why anyone would be surprised or even that this kind of thing is news doesn't make sense to me. True that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 43 minutes ago, inane said: Whatever, you get my point. We've just ignored the fact that our number one economic buddy in Asia is a gong show of environmental destruction and human rights violations because $$$. Why anyone would be surprised or even that this kind of thing is news doesn't make sense to me. Meh India is not much better in terms of environmental destruction and human rights violations.. I guess that's what happens when you let your population spiral out of control.. Unlike countries with low population I find it hard not to believe the governments just see their citizens as objects that can be used for various purposes. There needs to be a curb on human population and growth.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible.dee Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 But they couldn't POSSIBLY be laundering money through our real estate market, right Mr. Mayor? That would be racist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 8 minutes ago, terrible.dee said: But they couldn't POSSIBLY be laundering money through our real estate market, right Mr. Mayor? That would be racist! Who cares? It's good business for all of us. Guess what happens to our entire economy if we're not building housing units? Construction is our number one industry now. Come one and come all. Bring your tax dodging money laundering foreign butts here and keep our economy going. Yippee Kyyay MO....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 7 minutes ago, Alflives said: Who cares? It's good business for all of us. Guess what happens to our entire economy if we're not building housing units? Construction is our number one industry now. Come one and come all. Bring your tax dodging money laundering foreign butts here and keep our economy going. Yippee Kyyay MO....... Although at the macro level it is good because it contributes to the economy in a more robust way than say the oils sands or log exports, but at the micro level is makes people's lives miserable especially for those who live in Vancouver and surrounding areas to the point where people can't afford to live in Vancouver anymore.. Now personally it doesn't affect me as I live on the island, but I can understand people's concerns like those in Richmond.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 3 minutes ago, drummer4now said: Although at the macro level it is good because it contributes to the economy in a more robust way than say the oils sands or log exports, but at the micro level is makes people's lives miserable especially for those who live in Vancouver and surrounding areas to the point where people can't afford to live in Vancouver anymore.. Now personally it doesn't affect me as I live on the island, but I can understand people's concerns like those in Richmond.. its a free market system. The market sets the prices. if people can't afford to live in Vancouver that's too bad - they live elsewhere. Hell I want a water front house on Marine Drive but it's not in my price range. Too bad for me. I can either try my hardest to gain enough wealth to buy in that area, or I can live where I can afford. It's a free market democracy, where we have opportunity to improve our financial station. that ability to make our own wealth is what drives our democracy. Opportunity abounds. And why any one would choose to live behind the dykes in Rivhmond Is beyond understanding. One decent shaker and Richmond is gone. That's not an if, but a when Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 1 hour ago, terrible.dee said: But they couldn't POSSIBLY be laundering money through our real estate market, right Mr. Mayor? That would be racist! You should check out the situation with the previous chair of the Toronto school board. Ordered a bunch of textbooks from the Confucius Institute, an organization directly funded by the Chinese Communist Party, without any consultation. After parents started complaining/protesting, he insisted that they should have an open discussion in the following days to clarify the situation. But the day after, he immediately resigns. When questions about his actions by one of the local talk radio stations, he goes of a tirade saying it's some conspiracy formulated by the followers of Falun Gong..... the host was literally speechless. Remember when CSIS mentioned that the Chinese government has infiltrated and/or heavily influenced Canada across all levels of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrible.dee Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 4 hours ago, Alflives said: Who cares? It's good business for all of us. Guess what happens to our entire economy if we're not building housing units? Construction is our number one industry now. Come one and come all. Bring your tax dodging money laundering foreign butts here and keep our economy going. Yippee Kyyay MO....... If there was more cross pollination between groups and the type of financial investment that comes from the new owners actually living here, I would agree with you wholeheartedly, However, the people who actually are here have an isolationist mentality and tend to keep their dollars within their own community, they bring their own goods and services and usually employ their own, a huge portion don't even live here. I have friends who have been cold called more than once, with a stranger from China on the other line asking to buy their house, Another friend who owns commercial real estate, was called about several properties by someone claiming to represent a "Mom and Pop" family run business, he hired someone to find out who their were, and discovered it was a group controlled by that one guy (Name escapes me) who has been buying up half of Vancouver. Straight up lied to. Extra tax dollars? I suppose, but how much of that goes to pay off the elected officials who are allowing this to happen?, and if they are laundering money, it's moving through Vancouver on it's way elsewhere, it ain't staying here, With one of the most passive populations of any city I've ever lived in, and a tradition of spineless and greedy elected officials I must give them credit, they sure picked the right place. If this was happening somewhere in the states....well, there's a reason it isn't. We've been sold out, the emperor has no clothes....but as our mayor says: "We must be careful about this kind of racism" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edlerberry Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 8 hours ago, Alflives said: its a free market system. The market sets the prices. if people can't afford to live in Vancouver that's too bad - they live elsewhere. its an unfair advantage making money in china by skirting rules and then hiding money tax free vs running businesses that comply with expensive wages and regulation, paying tax on that, then paying tax on income, then buying a home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 11 hours ago, Alflives said: Who cares? It's good business for all of us. Guess what happens to our entire economy if we're not building housing units? Construction is our number one industry now. Come one and come all. Bring your tax dodging money laundering foreign butts here and keep our economy going. Yippee Kyyay MO....... This is a horrible way to view it. You realize that some of us are getting advance property assessment notices to tell us that our increase this year could be 15-25%? Now some will chime in to say "but the property value has increased", which doesn't mean a damn thing to someone who views this as a forever "home" and struggles to makes ends meet as a result? It's becoming impossible for some to stay here....and there's nothing "good" about that. Because houses don't make communities, people do. And what made things so great/special here was a sense of unity, community and caring. That's being bulldozed as a sense of greed and wealth take over. In my Father's case (a senior who has battled cancer and lives ONLY on a Government pension), he will be forced to sell soon. The only thing that keeps him going is his garden, cat and the fact that he loves his home so it will likely be the beginning of the end once that happens. A shame, because some see only the value in a dollar but don't see the value of having roots and establishing communities vs investment properties. That's being demolished with every affordable home that is replaced with a castle for the wealthy. Developers are tearing down EVERYTHING and bigger is better in building. But not really. Guess we'll somehow have to help foot the bill when some of these cheap palaces fall to the ground because of shoddy material and construction (I have two being built on my street...believe me, I've seen how they go up. Three dressed up as nines). Good business is not via proceeds of crime and corruption. That's building on borrowed time and fairly unstable (I think). When you have businesses issuing false passports to the masses in exchange for cash, it compromises the entire fabric of the country and is a pretty big deal. Not just on a small scale, thousands. So there is much more to this than "if you build it, they will come". If you don't properly oversee things, it can become a mess. If you blindfold yourself with hundred dollar bills, they're doing more harm than good. Exploitation to make a quick buck doesn't seem like it's a good business plan and dismantling all that was is likely not the best option. As for the article, human rights violations are never acceptable. You have to wonder if one hand isn't feeding the other....if corruption and crime are issues, you don't use corruption and crime to combat them. A practice what you preach deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Quote its a free market system. The market sets the prices. if people can't afford to live in Vancouver that's too bad - they live elsewhere. Hell I want a water front house on Marine Drive but it's not in my price range. Too bad for me. I can either try my hardest to gain enough wealth to buy in that area, or I can live where I can afford. It's a free market democracy, where we have opportunity to improve our financial station. that ability to make our own wealth is what drives our democracy. Opportunity abounds. And why any one would choose to live behind the dykes in Rivhmond Is beyond understanding. One decent shaker and Richmond is gone. That's not an if, but a when So this is a compassionate, caring Canada? Nope...this is how other places may do it, but not here. How about my Dad, the senior? Who has lived in his home for 40 years and the one before it 25? Your vision is very limited. If the "opportunity to improve financial" anything involves the possibility of fraud, forgery, corruption or the proceeds of crime...it probably isn't the best idea. That's a simple concept. If it hurts people to enable others to amass wealth, it's something to consider. A free market does not mean a blind eye. Your attitude isn't one that represents "Canada" well...it's the new trend. And we're trying to revert back to kinder, gentler country that actually cares more about citizens that it does wealth. There's moderation in all things...money is good/necessary but not at the expense of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 24 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said: This is a horrible way to view it. You realize that some of us are getting advance property assessment notices to tell us that our increase this year could be 15-25%? Now some will chime in to say "but the property value has increased", which doesn't mean a damn thing to someone who views this as a forever "home" and struggles to makes ends meet as a result? It's becoming impossible for some to stay here....and there's nothing "good" about that. Because houses don't make communities, people do. And what made things so great/special here was a sense of unity, community and caring. That's being bulldozed as a sense of greed and wealth take over. In my Father's case (a senior who has battled cancer and lives ONLY on a Government pension), he will be forced to sell soon. The only thing that keeps him going is his garden, cat and the fact that he loves his home so it will likely be the beginning of the end once that happens. A shame, because some see only the value in a dollar but don't see the value of having roots and establishing communities vs investment properties. That's being demolished with every affordable home that is replaced with a castle for the wealthy. Developers are tearing down EVERYTHING and bigger is better in building. But not really. Guess we'll somehow have to help foot the bill when some of these cheap palaces fall to the ground because of shoddy material and construction (I have two being built on my street...believe me, I've seen how they go up. Three dressed up as nines). Good business is not via proceeds of crime and corruption. That's building on borrowed time and fairly unstable (I think). When you have businesses issuing false passports to the masses in exchange for cash, it compromises the entire fabric of the country and is a pretty big deal. Not just on a small scale, thousands. So there is much more to this than "if you build it, they will come". If you don't properly oversee things, it can become a mess. If you blindfold yourself with hundred dollar bills, they're doing more harm than good. Exploitation to make a quick buck doesn't seem like it's a good business plan and dismantling all that was is likely not the best option. As for the article, human rights violations are never acceptable. You have to wonder if one hand isn't feeding the other....if corruption and crime are issues, you don't use corruption and crime to combat them. A practice what you preach deal. Developers are not tearing down EVERYTHING, let's not blow this too far out of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 7 hours ago, terrible.dee said: If there was more cross pollination between groups and the type of financial investment that comes from the new owners actually living here, I would agree with you wholeheartedly, However, the people who actually are here have an isolationist mentality and tend to keep their dollars within their own community, they bring their own goods and services and usually employ their own, a huge portion don't even live here. I have friends who have been cold called more than once, with a stranger from China on the other line asking to buy their house, Another friend who owns commercial real estate, was called about several properties by someone claiming to represent a "Mom and Pop" family run business, he hired someone to find out who their were, and discovered it was a group controlled by that one guy (Name escapes me) who has been buying up half of Vancouver. Straight up lied to. Extra tax dollars? I suppose, but how much of that goes to pay off the elected officials who are allowing this to happen?, and if they are laundering money, it's moving through Vancouver on it's way elsewhere, it ain't staying here, With one of the most passive populations of any city I've ever lived in, and a tradition of spineless and greedy elected officials I must give them credit, they sure picked the right place. If this was happening somewhere in the states....well, there's a reason it isn't. We've been sold out, the emperor has no clothes....but as our mayor says: "We must be careful about this kind of racism" I agree, sooner or later this will catch up and lead to some unwanted consequences. Back in 50's Vancouver was a blue collar town, right around 80's and the Expo, someone thought it would be a good idea for all this capital to be pumped into real estate market. Everyone that I know that used to live in the city, has moved to Coquitlam, Maple Ridge, Langley etc. With an average price of 1.5 mill for detached home, I am not even sure how any locals can afford to live there. 7 hours ago, terrible.dee said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 11 hours ago, Alflives said: its a free market system. The market sets the prices. if people can't afford to live in Vancouver that's too bad - they live elsewhere. Hell I want a water front house on Marine Drive but it's not in my price range. Too bad for me. I can either try my hardest to gain enough wealth to buy in that area, or I can live where I can afford. It's a free market democracy, where we have opportunity to improve our financial station. that ability to make our own wealth is what drives our democracy. Opportunity abounds. And why any one would choose to live behind the dykes in Rivhmond Is beyond understanding. One decent shaker and Richmond is gone. That's not an if, but a when I agree on your free market point, but how many people you think are money laundering and tax evading when buying real estate in Vancouver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electro Rock Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 And we have Prime Minister Zoolander, I mean Justin Trudeau, expressing admiration for that system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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