GoBoGo53 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, Jam126 said: So are the Blue Jackets, Coyotes, Panthers and Avalanche? I still listed 3 recent cup winners that have rebuilt through "tanking". Name me the last team that has won a championship through "retooling" on the fly. Are we trying to win a championship here or make the playoffs year after year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 23 minutes ago, 'NucK™ said: well from 94-'09, they made the finals 6 times, won the cup 4 of those times, and haven't missed the playoffs in my lifetime ('91). so I guess that is why I personally would cite them as a model lol.. and also this is pretty much EXACTLY what benning (well mostly ownership actually) is trying to do and what the OP just described.. Detroit did it on the backs of the Russian 5 veteran players, plus 2 lucky late picks in the draft. Since then times have been a lot tougher for the Wings. They never developed the backbone of the team ie the Russians they came already made. Now that Dtsyuk is gone they'll only have Zettersburg from that era and then that's it. Then ..... then ....start to judge Holland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam126 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, GoBoGo53 said: I still listed 3 recent cup winners that have rebuilt through "tanking". Name me the last team that has won a championship through "retooling" on the fly. Are we trying to win a championship here or make the playoffs year after year? Boston, you know, the team that had JB on their management team? Yeah. Also, I just listed 4 teams that have tanked year after year (5 including the Oilers) that haven't even gone past round 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorvatToBaertschi Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, GoBoGo53 said: How can you explain the success of recent cup winners? Penguins: Malkin (2), Fleury (1), Crosby (1)- They stunk for a while. Blackhawks- Toews (3), Kane (1)-They were garbage for a very long time as well. LA Doughty (2)-Stunk for a very long time. Very long time. Not a cup winner but look at Tampa right now. Stamkos (1), Hedman (2). All built through "tanking" and taking elite players at the top end of the draft. Edmonton is a terrible counter point because they are an anomaly in terms of how to rebuild. Detroit had zetterberg and datsyuk in round 7. Boston had no top 5 picks. There isnt à clear cut way to build à winner. It takes à lot of time and some luck. I prefer benning trying to Créate his own luck compared to teams like edmonton Toronto Chicago (circa 06) and LA who just got franchise players handed to them for sucking 10+ years. I like that we are staying competitive, its honourable to thé sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBoGo53 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, Jam126 said: Boston, you know, the team that had JB on their management team? Yeah. Also, I just listed 4 teams that have tanked year after year (5 including the Oilers) that haven't even gone past round 1. Boston. One team, one cup. Chicago 3 cups through tanking, LA 2 cups through tanking, Pittsburgh 2 cups through tanking. Once again, you can't just tank, you need to do it properly. Those 4 teams you listed have not done it properly. You need to insulate your young players with great veteran players. Those 4 teams have all had terrible management (apart from Florida recently, they look like they are turning it around). Good management+couple of elite players at draft positions 1 and 2 makes it so much easier to win a cup than retooling on the fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBoGo53 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, HorvatToBaertschi said: Detroit had zetterberg and datsyuk in round 7. Boston had no top 5 picks. There isnt à clear cut way to build à winner. It takes à lot of time and some luck. I prefer benning trying to Créate his own luck compared to teams like edmonton Toronto Chicago (circa 06) and LA who just got franchise players handed to them for sucking 10+ years. I like that we are staying competitive, its honourable to thé sport. When was the last time Detroit won a cup? They also had one of the greatest defensemen of all time on their team. You are banking on finding a Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom deep in the draft? All I am saying is look at the RECENT winners. All have one thing in common. Elite players through the top end of the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam126 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, GoBoGo53 said: Boston. One team, one cup.Chicago 3 cups through tanking, LA 2 cups through tanking, Pittsburgh 2 cups through tanking. Once again, you can't just tank, you need to do it properly. Those 4 teams you listed have not done it properly. You need to insulate your young players with great veteran players. Those 4 teams have all had terrible management (apart from Florida recently, they look like they are turning it around). Good management+couple of elite players at draft positions 1 and 2 makes it so much easier to win a cup than retooling on the fly. I like how you think that they tanked properly. No, their management was so incompetent that they sucked so bad to get those top picks. Plus, Pens got lucky with Crosby. Oh, and to the argument "Tanking wins cups" here are the Stanley cup winners who didn't tank: Boston Detroit X4 Anaheim New Jersey Tampa Bay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, GoBoGo53 said: Boston. One team, one cup. Chicago 3 cups through tanking, LA 2 cups through tanking, Pittsburgh 2 cups through tanking. Once again, you can't just tank, you need to do it properly. Those 4 teams you listed have not done it properly. You need to insulate your young players with great veteran players. Those 4 teams have all had terrible management (apart from Florida recently, they look like they are turning it around). Good management+couple of elite players at draft positions 1 and 2 makes it so much easier to win a cup than retooling on the fly. An argument for tanking is the dumbest argument in sports history. It is as idiotic as fractional reserve banking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, Jam126 said: Boston, you know, the team that had JB on their management team? Yeah. Also, I just listed 4 teams that have tanked year after year (5 including the Oilers) that haven't even gone past round 1. Coyotes never tanked year after year. 2015 was the only year they "tanked". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Jam126 said: I like how you think that they tanked properly. No, their management was so incompetent that they sucked so bad to get those top picks. Plus, Pens got lucky with Crosby. Oh, and to the argument "Tanking wins cups" here are the Stanley cup winners who didn't tank: Boston Detroit X4 Anaheim New Jersey Tampa Bay Let's stick to the cap era when teams couldn't just go out and get the players they wanted because they had the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBoGo53 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jam126 said: I like how you think that they tanked properly. No, their management was so incompetent that they sucked so bad to get those top picks. Plus, Pens got lucky with Crosby. Oh, and to the argument "Tanking wins cups" here are the Stanley cup winners who didn't tank: Boston Detroit X4 Anaheim New Jersey Tampa Bay 3 minutes ago, Me_ said: An argument for tanking is the dumbest argument in sports history. It is as idiotic as fractional reserve banking. too bad it works, look at the recent cup winners, as in every one since 2011. All one theme in common. Why don't you stick to the cap era? Let me ask you guys a question. What is the difference from what we did finishing 3rd last, last year and doing what Toronto did? Both teams were disasters. One team ended up with the 1st overall pick, the other with the 5th. A matter of only a couple wins in a disaster of a season for both teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam126 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, Toews said: Coyotes never tanked year after year. 2015 was the only year they "tanked". Even without the Coyotes, there's still more teams that tanked and haven't even made an impact in the Playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancan2233 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 31 minutes ago, GoBoGo53 said: How can you explain the success of recent cup winners? Penguins: Malkin (2), Fleury (1), Crosby (1)- They stunk for a while. Blackhawks- Toews (3), Kane (1)-They were garbage for a very long time as well. LA Doughty (2)-Stunk for a very long time. Very long time. Not a cup winner but look at Tampa right now. Stamkos (1), Hedman (2). All built through "tanking" and taking elite players at the top end of the draft. Edmonton is a terrible counter point because they are an anomaly in terms of how to rebuild. None of those teams went on the plan of tanking they just were not good enough. Prove they had the plain to tank it such a stupid concept made up by the media and the average fan fell for the concept like it was fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam126 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Toews said: Let's stick to the cap era when teams couldn't just go out and get the players they wanted because they had the money. That still leaves Anaheim, Detroit and Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Jam126 said: Even without the Coyotes, there's still more teams that tanked and haven't even made an impact in the Playoffs. How many of those teams like the Panthers, Jackets, Islanders etc were cap floor teams. They had no recourse but to tank, they couldn't go out and get players as they didn't have the money to. The Panthers are just now starting to spend to the cap. The Islanders are slowly getting there. Budget is a big reason why these teams still struggle. How many teams have won a Cup while not spending to the cap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jam126 said: That still leaves Anaheim, Detroit and Boston. I have no arguments with those teams. I don't think tanking is absolutely necessary either. If you look at the Jets, they have amassed quite a talent pool and they have never tanked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'NucK™ Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, Fred65 said: Detroit did it on the backs of the Russian 5 veteran players, plus 2 lucky late picks in the draft. Since then times have been a lot tougher for the Wings. They never developed the backbone of the team ie the Russians they came already made. Now that Dtsyuk is gone they'll only have Zettersburg from that era and then that's it. Then ..... then ....start to judge Holland i agree that Detroit might've had some luck and even that their drafting wasn't as good as people say, but the end result is still exactly what benning and co. are going for right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam126 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, GoBoGo53 said: too bad it works, look at the recent cup winners, as in every one since 2011. All one theme in common. Let me ask you guys a question. What is the difference from what we did finishing 3rd last, last year and doing what Toronto did? Both teams were disasters. One team ended up with the 1st overall pick, the other with the 5th. A matter of only a couple wins in a disaster of a season for both teams. It's a lottery. The last overall team doesn't automatically get the first overall pick. Toronto could've got 4th and ended up with Dubois or Tkachuk (Assuming Columbus wasn't being stupid). Also, let me ask you this, who were the key players in that playoff run for the Pens? Crosby? Malkin? It was the line with Hagelin, Kessel and Bonino, only one player in that line was picked in the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vancan2233 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Just now, GoBoGo53 said: too bad it works, look at the recent cup winners, as in every one since 2011. All one theme in common. Why don't you stick to the cap era? Let me ask you guys a question. What is the difference from what we did finishing 3rd last, last year and doing what Toronto did? Both teams were disasters. One team ended up with the 1st overall pick, the other with the 5th. A matter of only a couple wins in a disaster of a season for both teams. Either team could of had the 1st overall. Tanking does not work, because it is a made up concept. If you suck as a team you have the chance to pick high, it that simple. Could you image how terrible the NHL would be if all the bottom half teams of the NHL went on the concept of tanking. You know tank if you think you might miss the playoffs. The draft lottery was put into play because of poorly managed teams not on the concept of teams tanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJDDawg Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Nice first thread. Now let me tell you about a kid named desi..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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