Canucks - Stars (Proposal)

[notafan]

Just a thought. This may be out there, but how about -

To Dallas:

Tanev

2nd round pick ( from Columbus)

 

To Vancouver:

3rd overall

(Either) Niemi or Lehtonen

 

Don't resign Miller. Niemi or Lehtonen could back up Markstrom for a lot less money.

With these picks, we cover the 2 needs plus a possible veteran back up goalie.

 

#3 - Heiskainen

#5 - Vilardi/Glass

 

Canucks still retain #33 (where they could select Adam Ruzicka) the Columbus pick could be this year or next.

        

[Calvin's Dog]

10 hours ago, khay said:

If anything, Dallas needs defence. If Jim Nill still hasn't figured that out, he will be fired. Well, I guess goalie was their number 1 priority but they figured it out by acquiring then, signing Bishop. 

 

A proposal surrounding Tanev is intriguing but I doubt that it gets the 3rd overall. If we were picking somewhere in the 15-20OA, Tanev + 15-20 OA might have been good enough but we are picking 5OA and difference between 5OA and 3OA is so small in this draft that it's not worth giving it up.

 

I don't see any realistic trade, unless we offer something big like, Tanev + Sutter for 3OA + a good prospect. If JB views next season as a prospect development season (i.e., tanking), then this deal might be OK although it does feel like we are doing Dallas a big favour. I wonder if their #1 defence prospect, I think it's Honka, is ready for the NHL or not. If not, I wonder if Tanev + Sutter for 3OA + Honka be a good deal for both sides? Again, losing Tanev + Sutter means we are going to finish last in the standings.

 

I have wondered if acquiring a pick maybe 20th overall from St. Louis (because they have 2 first rounders).

 

Maybe both the 2nd round picks?

 

Then trade up?

 

Or I wonder if Buffalo would be interested in another goalie to push Lehner?

 

Maybe Markstrom & 2nd (not unlike the Schneider deal) to Buffalo for 8th overall.

 

Stand pat or ...

 

Nucks sign Miller and take one of 

the Dallas goalies in a cap dump.

 

To Dallas: 8th overall, Tanev

 

To Van: 3rd overall, Lehtonen/Niemi, rights to Nichushkin 

 

Overall:

 

out: Markstrom, Tanev, 8th overall,  50th overall 

 

In: 3rd overall, Noemi/Let, rights to Nichushkin 

 

I think acquiring another Russian might, that with Goldy and Pedan, and if they shine with Greene, maybe BFG and his wife have more of a close Russian community here and they come back?

 

Edit: I think trades like this would happen after Expansion Draft

[Calvin's Dog]

7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Or a smarter move would be

 

Niemi (40% retained) to tampa for Garrison since they need another LDH.  Then they keep their 3rd overall and draft Heiskanen who will be an impact player in less than 3 years. 

I thought about that but do you think Dallas, because Spezza is aging out feels more urgency to bolster D now, with someone like Tanev? 

 

They may also also be able to dump a goalie on Vegas if they throw a pick or prospect in.

[qwijibo]

36 minutes ago, Calvin's Dog said:

I have wondered if acquiring a pick maybe 20th overall from St. Louis (because they have 2 first rounders).

 

Maybe both the 2nd round picks?

 

Then trade up?

 

Or I wonder if Buffalo would be interested in another goalie to push Lehner?

 

Maybe Markstrom & 2nd (not unlike the Schneider deal) to Buffalo for 8th overall.

 

Stand pat or ...

 

Nucks sign Miller and take one of 

the Dallas goalies in a cap dump.

 

To Dallas: 8th overall, Tanev

 

To Van: 3rd overall, Lehtonen/Niemi, rights to Nichushkin 

 

Overall:

 

out: Markstrom, Tanev, 8th overall,  50th overall 

 

In: 3rd overall, Noemi/Let, rights to Nichushkin 

 

I think acquiring another Russian might, that with Goldy and Pedan, and if they shine with Greene, maybe BFG and his wife have more of a close Russian community here and they come back?

 

Edit: I think trades like this would happen after Expansion Draft

Markstrom doesn't have anywhere neat the value Schneider did.  He's a 27 year old back-up with not very good nhl numbers.  I would think he'd return about the same as Lack did.  Adding him to the 2nd doesn't get you anywhere near the 8th overall.  Add in the fact that there are better, more established goalies available and Buffalo laughs at your proposal.  Since that takes Buffalos 8th out of the picture I won't bother commenting on your Dallas deal

[ForsbergTheGreat]

30 minutes ago, Calvin's Dog said:

I thought about that but do you think Dallas, because Spezza is aging out feels more urgency to bolster D now, with someone like Tanev? 

 

They may also also be able to dump a goalie on Vegas if they throw a pick or prospect in.

True although the fact that spezza is aging makes me thing they try to find his replacement (mittelstadt) in the draft this year. and their need is on the left side not really the right side since they already have Klingberg and Honka on the right side.  trade for garisson, sign stone and their D has a lot more depth than it did last year.  

 

Hamhuis Klingberg

Garrison Honka

Lindell Stone

Oleskiak

 

It depends on if who they think they can sign in the offseason, Kulikov, Smith and Wideman are all left D. 

 

[Nucksfan3322]

21 hours ago, Nuck1991 said:

i love it

but realistically the only way we pick 2 times in top 5 is if we give up one our young prospects. Tanev alone cant get 3rd overall.  Tanev + + sure will

I think we can add something that doesn't include our top prospects, taking on one of their goalies cap hits and giving them a top shutdown guy is fair. Maybe add some lower pics if needed 

[Nuck1991]

1 hour ago, Nucksfan3322 said:

I think we can add something that doesn't include our top prospects, taking on one of their goalies cap hits and giving them a top shutdown guy is fair. Maybe add some lower pics if needed 

yes but i believe we still need to add bear or granlund and a pick ( 2nd rounder)fr the deal to work

[Calvin's Dog]

17 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

True although the fact that spezza is aging makes me thing they try to find his replacement (mittelstadt) in the draft this year. and their need is on the left side not really the right side since they already have Klingberg and Honka on the right side.  trade for garisson, sign stone and their D has a lot more depth than it did last year.  

 

Hamhuis Klingberg

Garrison Honka

Lindell Stone

Oleskiak

 

It depends on if who they think they can sign in the offseason, Kulikov, Smith and Wideman are all left D. 

 

I get what you're saying and do agree but I think that d even with Garrison is still young.

[Calvin's Dog]

17 hours ago, qwijibo said:

Markstrom doesn't have anywhere neat the value Schneider did.  He's a 27 year old back-up with not very good nhl numbers.  I would think he'd return about the same as Lack did.  Adding him to the 2nd doesn't get you anywhere near the 8th overall.  Add in the fact that there are better, more established goalies available and Buffalo laughs at your proposal.  Since that takes Buffalos 8th out of the picture I won't bother commenting on your Dallas deal

I mostly agree but I also think that Markstrom has played well on a bad team and that Schneider who is absolutely the better goalie (but also 27 when traded and only had one year as a starter) did benefit from playing on a better team while in Vancouver. 

 

I also believe that even though the Nucks got Horvat with that pick that maybe Gillis didn't play the field enough and that the Canucks were under compensated for Schneider.

 

I personally don't think Lehner is much different in potential from Markstrom. I think two younger goalies pushing one another might work for Buffalo who, based on the recent firings are tired of being in rebuild mode. I did see that Buffalo has Nilsson (I think) so I suppose it depends what they think they have there too.

 

I guess I disagree with you that Markstrom and a 2nd is as far off as you believe it is, but I won't be quitting my day job and I haven't been head hunted as a GM (yet;)

 

 

[qwijibo]

2 hours ago, Calvin's Dog said:

I mostly agree but I also think that Markstrom has played well on a bad team and that Schneider who is absolutely the better goalie (but also 27 when traded and only had one year as a starter) did benefit from playing on a better team while in Vancouver. 

 

I also believe that even though the Nucks got Horvat with that pick that maybe Gillis didn't play the field enough and that the Canucks were under compensated for Schneider.

 

I personally don't think Lehner is much different in potential from Markstrom. I think two younger goalies pushing one another might work for Buffalo who, based on the recent firings are tired of being in rebuild mode. I did see that Buffalo has Nilsson (I think) so I suppose it depends what they think they have there too.

 

I guess I disagree with you that Markstrom and a 2nd is as far off as you believe it is, but I won't be quitting my day job and I haven't been head hunted as a GM (yet;)

 

 

If you were the GM of a team would you give up the 8th overall pick for a goalie that has roughly the same upside as the goalie you already have?  I wouldn't.  Especially when you have some good prospects in your system and there will be a number of established goalies available through free agency this summer. 

[Calvin's Dog]

2 hours ago, qwijibo said:

If you were the GM of a team would you give up the 8th overall pick for a goalie that has roughly the same upside as the goalie you already have?  I wouldn't.  Especially when you have some good prospects in your system and there will be a number of established goalies available through free agency this summer. 

Fair enough. You are probably more knowledgeable in such things than I am. In fact I

know little about hockey really. Just like imagining trades that might help the Nucks.

 

I guess whether a trade like this could happen would depend on what the incumbent GM thought of  Markstrom vs free agents. Markstrom is signed and has improved . The free agent market without Darling and Bishop has a significant drop off. Being in  Buffalo's position might mean a huge overpayment in terms of cap and term to a free agent goalie.

 

Like I said acquiring Markstrom would be to push Lehner and to keep the team 'in it' if other were injured. 

 

I have no idea how the Buffalo GM will be looking to put a new stamp on the team, but I think the goaltending in Buffalo was underwhelming that's all.

 

Maybe the Columbus pick or even the 33rd isn't enough to balance it out either, more might be needed but just spit balling. 

 

.

 

 

[Byrix]

I think most of the posters here is under estimating the value of Tanev and over valuing the quality of the pick.

Scouts have been talking about how this draft reminds them of the 99 draft where only 3 players turned out to be impact players in the top 21.

 

Let's put it this way, if Nolan Patrick were eligible in last year's draft, he would have gone 5th. Hischer would have gone 7~10.

Let's imagine putting Patrick and Hischer in the 2015 draft, they would have been 6~10 range again?

And yet, we are talking these are guys that are the clear cut top 2 in this years draft.

 

So we can clearly see the value of the group of picks 3~11 is not comparable to past years.

That group put in 2016 draft would have been the similar value of pics 11~20ish?

 

Let's look at the comparables, shall we?

Evidence 1:

The New Jersey Devils' first-round pick(11th overall) went to the Ottawa Senators as the result of a trade on June 24, 2016 that sent a first-round pick and the Islanders' third-round pick both in 2016 (12th and 80th overall) to New Jersey in exchange for the 11th pick.

It takes a 3rd round pick to move up 1 spot.

 

Evidence 2:

The Detroit Red Wings’ first-round pick(16th overall) went to the Arizona Coyotes as the result of a trade on June 24, 2016 that sent Joe Vitale, the Rangers' first-round pick and a compensatory second-round pick both in 2016 (20th and 53rd overall) to Detroit in exchange for the cap hit of Pavel Datsyuk and the 16th pick.

It takes a second round pick + eating a bad contract to move up 4 spots.

 

Evidence 3:

The Philadelphia Flyers’ first-round pick(18th overall) went to the Winnipeg Jets as the result of a trade on June 24, 2016 that sent Chicago’s first-round pick and a second-round pick both in 2016 (22nd and 36th overall) to Philadelphia in exchange for a third-round pick in 2016 (79th overall) and this pick.

It takes moving down 47 spots from 2nd round to 3rd round to move up 4 spots.

 

Now let's also look at Dman value in the last year.

Evidence 4:

Florida Panthers trade D Erik Gudbranson and 2016 5th-round pick to Vancouver Canucks in exchange for F Jared McCann, 2016 2nd-round pick and 2016 4th-round pick

Gudbranson(3.5mil) was worth a late 1st, a high 2nd and a bit more.

 

Evidence 5:

New York Rangers trade rights to D Keith Yandle to Florida Panthers for 2016 6th-round pick and 2017 conditional 4th-round pick

Yandle's(6.35mil) negotiation rights was worth a 4th and a 6th.

 

Evidence 6:

Edmonton Oilers trade F Taylor Hall to New Jersey Devils for D Adam Larsson

Larsson(4.16mil) was worth a high 1st.

 

Evidence 7:

St. Louis Blues trade D Kevin Shattenkirk and G Pheonix Copley to Washington Capitals for 2017 first-round pick, conditional draft picks and forwards Zach Sanford and Brad Malone

Shattenkirk(4.25mil) as a rental was worth a late 1st and a 2nd and some more if he resigns. 

 

So, with Tanev a top pairing shut down guy in his prime with couple years on a good contract,

we can ball park Tanev's value at a mid 1st + 2nd + a little bit more.

Which, if we look at the pick value evidence examples, a 1st+2nd is likely worth a bit more than the 3rd overall pick in 2017.

No wonder there are news reporting Dallas is having trouble fetching a top 4 Dman with the 3rd overall pick.

The pick value is just not the same this year.

So, if the Stars really wants Tanev, they need to sweeten the deal by adding pieces.

I don't think asking for the rights for Nichushkin is too out fetched, but, in that case, the Canucks need to learn how to treat Russian player right.

Afterall, Dallas is not the only team looking for Dman. Colorado, Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Toronto, Edmonton are all still openly looking for D, all have similar or better valued pieces. JB was smart when he started a bidding war between Ottawa and Montreal for Burrows, might need the do the same for Tanev and Edler at the draft as well.

 

 

AND finally, with the expansion draft coming only a day prior to the draft, we really shouldn't expect to see a lot of trades before June 20th.

[mll]

58 minutes ago, Byrix said:

I think most of the posters here is under estimating the value of Tanev and over valuing the quality of the pick.

Scouts have been talking about how this draft reminds them of the 99 draft where only 3 players turned out to be impact players in the top 21.

 

Let's put it this way, if Nolan Patrick were eligible in last year's draft, he would have gone 5th. Hischer would have gone 7~10.

Let's imagine putting Patrick and Hischer in the 2015 draft, they would have been 6~10 range again?

And yet, we are talking these are guys that are the clear cut top 2 in this years draft.

 

So we can clearly see the value of the group of picks 3~11 is not comparable to past years.

That group put in 2016 draft would have been the similar value of pics 11~20ish?

 

Let's look at the comparables, shall we?

Evidence 1:

The New Jersey Devils' first-round pick(11th overall) went to the Ottawa Senators as the result of a trade on June 24, 2016 that sent a first-round pick and the Islanders' third-round pick both in 2016 (12th and 80th overall) to New Jersey in exchange for the 11th pick.

It takes a 3rd round pick to move up 1 spot.

 

Evidence 2:

The Detroit Red Wings’ first-round pick(16th overall) went to the Arizona Coyotes as the result of a trade on June 24, 2016 that sent Joe Vitale, the Rangers' first-round pick and a compensatory second-round pick both in 2016 (20th and 53rd overall) to Detroit in exchange for the cap hit of Pavel Datsyuk and the 16th pick.

It takes a second round pick + eating a bad contract to move up 4 spots.

 

Evidence 3:

The Philadelphia Flyers’ first-round pick(18th overall) went to the Winnipeg Jets as the result of a trade on June 24, 2016 that sent Chicago’s first-round pick and a second-round pick both in 2016 (22nd and 36th overall) to Philadelphia in exchange for a third-round pick in 2016 (79th overall) and this pick.

It takes moving down 47 spots from 2nd round to 3rd round to move up 4 spots.

 

Now let's also look at Dman value in the last year.

Evidence 4:

Florida Panthers trade D Erik Gudbranson and 2016 5th-round pick to Vancouver Canucks in exchange for F Jared McCann, 2016 2nd-round pick and 2016 4th-round pick

Gudbranson(3.5mil) was worth a late 1st, a high 2nd and a bit more.

 

Evidence 5:

New York Rangers trade rights to D Keith Yandle to Florida Panthers for 2016 6th-round pick and 2017 conditional 4th-round pick

Yandle's(6.35mil) negotiation rights was worth a 4th and a 6th.

 

Evidence 6:

Edmonton Oilers trade F Taylor Hall to New Jersey Devils for D Adam Larsson

Larsson(4.16mil) was worth a high 1st.

 

Evidence 7:

St. Louis Blues trade D Kevin Shattenkirk and G Pheonix Copley to Washington Capitals for 2017 first-round pick, conditional draft picks and forwards Zach Sanford and Brad Malone

Shattenkirk(4.25mil) as a rental was worth a late 1st and a 2nd and some more if he resigns. 

 

So, with Tanev a top pairing shut down guy in his prime with couple years on a good contract,

we can ball park Tanev's value at a mid 1st + 2nd + a little bit more.

Which, if we look at the pick value evidence examples, a 1st+2nd is likely worth a bit more than the 3rd overall pick in 2017.

No wonder there are news reporting Dallas is having trouble fetching a top 4 Dman with the 3rd overall pick.

The pick value is just not the same this year.

So, if the Stars really wants Tanev, they need to sweeten the deal by adding pieces.

I don't think asking for the rights for Nichushkin is too out fetched, but, in that case, the Canucks need to learn how to treat Russian player right.

Afterall, Dallas is not the only team looking for Dman. Colorado, Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Toronto, Edmonton are all still openly looking for D, all have similar or better valued pieces. JB was smart when he started a bidding war between Ottawa and Montreal for Burrows, might need the do the same for Tanev and Edler at the draft as well.

 

 

AND finally, with the expansion draft coming only a day prior to the draft, we really shouldn't expect to see a lot of trades before June 20th.

Expansion changes things though.

 

Last night Friedman suggested that Dallas is looking for a proven D and speculates that Anaheim or the Wild could get it done as they are teams who could lose one through expansion.  

 

On the Wild, Dallas could probably make a deal around Brodin, Dumba or Scandella.  Anaheim is in the same situation but they seem to have more suitors (Colorado, Tampa, Toronto have been scouting them) and would likely rather trade for a top-6 F.

 

Fwiw Brian Wilde of CTV is suggesting that, in general and not specific to D, prices are going to be going down because teams have the choice between losing the player for free or getting something in return.  He thinks teams are going to use the opportunity to upgrade on what they have at a lesser cost pre-expansion.  

 

Re timing.  Expansion draft lists have to be submitted on the 17th.  Vegas has to submit their selection on the 20th and their selection will be revealed on the 21st.  The draft is on the 23rd. 

[Byrix]

7 minutes ago, mll said:

Expansion changes things though.

 

Last night Friedman suggested that Dallas is looking for a proven D and speculates that Anaheim or the Wild could get it done as they are teams who could lose one through expansion.  

 

On the Wild, Dallas could probably make a deal around Brodin, Dumba or Scandella.  Anaheim is in the same situation but they seem to have more suitors (Colorado, Tampa, Toronto have been scouting them) and would likely rather trade for a top-6 F.

 

Fwiw Brian Wilde of CTV is suggesting that, in general and not specific to D, prices are going to be going down because teams have the choice between losing the player for free or getting something in return.  He thinks teams are going to use the opportunity to upgrade on what they have at a lesser cost pre-expansion.  

 

Re timing.  Expansion draft lists have to be submitted on the 17th.  Vegas has to submit their selection on the 20th and their selection will be revealed on the 21st.  The draft is on the 23rd. 

Yes, indeed, I stand corrected on the expansion timing.
Thank you for clarifying.

 

However, even if we count in the Ducks and the Wild, there are still more buyers than sellers. What's likely to happen is that the Ducks and Wild move out the D to two of the teams in need. And then the water mark will return for the teams that lost out.

[nickels]

Full tank mode...

 

Tanev and Edler to the Stars

For their 2 1st's and 2nd

#3 overall

#30 overall (from Ana for Eaves)

#39 overall (their 2nd)

Rights to Nichuskin

and we eat rest of Niemis contract.

 

IMO...Bishop, Edler and Tanev make the Stars one of the top 2-3 teams in the west for the next couple seasons.

They are clearly built  to win now...

 

We add these picks to ours and have 6 picks in the 1st 2 rounds....time for JB to show us he can draft.

 

In 2-3 years these draft picks are ready for prime time...Nichuskin and Trym return and join the rest of our age appropriate core and we're a factor again.

 

 

 

[HockeydownUnder]

10 hours ago, nickels said:

Full tank mode...

 

Tanev and Edler to the Stars

For their 2 1st's and 2nd

#3 overall

#30 overall (from Ana for Eaves)

#39 overall (their 2nd)

Rights to Nichuskin

and we eat rest of Niemis contract.

 

IMO...Bishop, Edler and Tanev make the Stars one of the top 2-3 teams in the west for the next couple seasons.

They are clearly built  to win now...

 

We add these picks to ours and have 6 picks in the 1st 2 rounds....time for JB to show us he can draft.

 

In 2-3 years these draft picks are ready for prime time...Nichuskin and Trym return and join the rest of our age appropriate core and we're a factor again.

 

 

 

The stars are unlikely to do this prior to expansion. The values reasonable in my opinion though and with the loss of those 2 we would be guaranteed a high draft pick for a couple more years. 

[IBatch]

On 2017-5-18 at 2:33 PM, Alflives said:

Doesn't Dallas need to keep pucks out of their net though?  Tanev might be a better direction for their current team.

Landeskog is a defensive forward...but he is no Tanev.  Tanev makes more sense to me for Dallas.  Adding Bishop means the have to move a goalie, if we dont resign Miller this trade makes sense for both parties 

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Landeskog is a defensive forward...but he is no Tanev.  Tanev makes more sense to me for Dallas.  Adding Bishop means the have to move a goalie, if we dont resign Miller this trade makes sense for both parties 

I sure hope you're right IBatch, and JB makes it happen.  I am fully behind the rebuild train.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I sure hope you're right IBatch, and JB makes it happen.  I am fully behind the rebuild train.

Which goalie would you rather have? Both have their issues...would they be the back-up?

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Which goalie would you rather have? Both have their issues...would they be the back-up?

It's that third overall pick that's the key.  To me, which goalie we take back is not of importance.