Rob_Zepp Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Alflives said: I really can't comment on a 'rape culture', but I do believe there is (ingrained) into our society a belief that women are objects - almost toys to be played with. I still hear (read) stuff like "eye candy" and "trophy" associated with women. I think too, the make-up industry is worth Billions. And the clothing stores are mostly for women. There is a crazy mixed message: many women are beautiful (and want to be considered that way) and yet don't want to be objectified. Of course there is no excuse for the abuse of women (or anyone who is vulnerable) but there are certain traits in our society that confuse some men. Hopefully, these brave women coming forward about the abuses they suffered, will educate society, or at least open dialogue about a subject that for way too long was considered 'taboo'. Extremely well said. As someone who is among the younger posters on this board (or so I am finding out when people talk about things that happened to the Canucks that they watched before I was born), I can say that there remains a cultural objectification of women by our society and it creates problems of all nature. I also know there are a handful of really sick individuals who abuse the current scenario and innocent men AND women are getting scooped up in this and perhaps that is why some posters are taking the semantic train to "don't blame me just because I am a man". I will come right out and say I am an athletic guy who did well at sports and never suffered through school and into my career for finding female companionship but I look back to when I was in high school and even for a few years after and though I never remotely came close to "raping" anyone, I was using my physical attributes and sport's reputation in a pretty non-healthy way and thinking about many of the women I hooked up with in a pretty shallow way. I participated in crap locker room talk. I reposted e-mails/pics i shoudn't have. I am a work in progress as a human but I am trying to be a better man and that starts with admittedly that even those who are innocent of something as horrible as "rape" have been silently standing by while the culture around us has seemingly almost condoned that objectifying of women (and increasing attractive men) for less than healthy outcomes for many. Turn the temperature down everyone. No sides here. NO ONE posting here can possibly agree with these powerful men getting away with the crap they did or deny that this is a societal problem that needs a fix. Beyond that, if you want to argue semantics - knock yourself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 17 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Turn the temperature down everyone. No sides here. NO ONE posting here can possibly agree with these powerful men getting away with the crap they did That’s what makes this whole thing absolutely hilarious. There has not been one person here who has posted in support of sexual assault or to put a stop to preventative measures to ensure it doesn’t happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, Monty said: That’s what makes this whole thing absolutely hilarious. There has not been one person here who has posted in support of sexual assault or to put a stop to preventative measures to ensure it doesn’t happen. That was part of my point - I see these huge arguments but I don't think the people arguing are on different sides. I do think, however, when a man tries to convince a woman she is "wrong" about her perspective on sexual abuse in society, it is a very slippery slope. Anyway, glad you picked up on the key thing I was trying to say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerridwen Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Alflives said: I really can't comment on a 'rape culture', but I do believe there is (ingrained) into our society a belief that women are objects - almost toys to be played with. I still hear (read) stuff like "eye candy" and "trophy" associated with women. I think too, the make-up industry is worth Billions. And the clothing stores are mostly for women. There is a crazy mixed message: many women are beautiful (and want to be considered that way) and yet don't want to be objectified. Of course there is no excuse for the abuse of women (or anyone who is vulnerable) but there are certain traits in our society that confuse some men. Hopefully, these brave women coming forward about the abuses they suffered, will educate society, or at least open dialogue about a subject that for way too long was considered 'taboo'. Me, too, Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 4 hours ago, Dral said: That might be true for your generation or the people you associate with, but I definitely don't think it's the norm nowadays Here's an interesting take on it tho... there are no longer any "Beauty" Pageants? Magazines, Billboards, and TV commercials don't place emphasis on a woman's appearance to attract customers' attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 12 minutes ago, Alflives said: there are no longer any "Beauty" Pageants? Magazines, Billboards, and TV commercials don't place emphasis on a woman's appearance to attract customers' attention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 6 minutes ago, Monty said: Did I misinterpret the poster's comment about the younger generation not exploiting women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 16 minutes ago, Alflives said: Did I misinterpret the poster's comment about the younger generation not exploiting women? Women choosing to be in pageants and advertising/modeling (a profession) is exploiting? So what you’re saying is women being in a profession is a problem? I don’t see a see an add for hockey and say, “I can’t believe they’re condoning head trauma, because they aren’t preventing it! They need to shut down that sport and subsequently put all the athletes, management, rink workers, PR teams, accounting staff, trainers, logistics coordinators, and sales staff out on the street and out of work. Because they aren’t protecting their athletes.” Those industries you mentioned aren’t promoting rape or sexual assault. My aunt works for a prominent fashion company and my sister in law was a model, singer, and now owns her own successful small business (she was on Dragon’s Den last year) and is constantly in magazines where they also sell her appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, Monty said: Women choosing to be in pageants and advertising/modeling (a profession) is exploiting? So what you’re saying is women being in a profession is a problem? I don’t see a see an add for hockey and say, “I can’t believe they’re condoning head trauma, because they aren’t preventing it! They need to shut down that sport and subsequently put all the athletes, management, rink workers, PR teams, accounting staff, trainers, logistics coordinators, and sales staff out on the street and out of work. Because they aren’t protecting their athletes.” Those industries you mentioned aren’t promoting rape or sexual assault. "Those industries you mentioned aren’t promoting rape or sexual assault." Just as I step out the door to go to work I ask, are you saying there is no rape culture? And I'll be back in about 9 hrs, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said: That was part of my point - I see these huge arguments but I don't think the people arguing are on different sides. I do think, however, when a man tries to convince a woman she is "wrong" about her perspective on sexual abuse in society, it is a very slippery slope. Anyway, glad you picked up on the key thing I was trying to say! How so? And why does the gender of either participant in the conversation matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 41 minutes ago, Alflives said: there are no longer any "Beauty" Pageants? Magazines, Billboards, and TV commercials don't place emphasis on a woman's appearance to attract customers' attention? Monty beat me too it... but I'll add that Pageants give away a ton of scholarship money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 11 minutes ago, gurn said: "Those industries you mentioned aren’t promoting rape or sexual assault." Just as I step out the door to go to work I ask, are you saying there is no rape culture? And I'll be back in about 9 hrs, Check back several pages and view my posts on the matter. I’ve stated my stance on it, which isn’t based off of what I think or feel. I leave the studies on this matter in the hands of those far more qualified then any of us on the subject. Why? I’m not going to tell my Neurologist what my recommended dosage should be for my epilepsy medication. He’s the expert in the field, not me. Same here. RAINN.org is North America’s largest anti-sexual assault organization. They’ve provided The White House, among every other major organization in North America, with what they need to ensure that all preventative measures that can be put in place for sexual assault and rape, are in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 13 minutes ago, Monty said: Women choosing to be in pageants and advertising/modeling (a profession) is exploiting? So what you’re saying is women being in a profession is a problem? I don’t see a see an add for hockey and say, “I can’t believe they’re condoning head trauma, because they aren’t preventing it! They need to shut down that sport and subsequently put all the athletes, management, rink workers, PR teams, accounting staff, trainers, logistics coordinators, and sales staff out on the street and out of work. Because they aren’t protecting their athletes.” Those industries you mentioned aren’t promoting rape or sexual assault. My aunt works for a prominent fashion company and my sister in law was a model, singer, and now owns her own successful small business (she was on Dragon’s Den last year) and is constantly in magazines where they also sell her appearance. So how is that any different than 50 years ago? The suggestion was that the new (younger) generation doesn't exploit women, especially for their appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Just now, Dral said: How so? And why does the gender of either participant in the conversation matter Because then the message can lead to tacit approval at the worst and at a minimum indifference to actions that some may find as "boys being boys". When this discussion starts to erode the key messages through arguing semantics, adding in "well, some men get raped too" and similar it is essentially a form of minimizing the key message. The gender DOES matter in that unless you are a truly unique male, you are not able to know what it is like to live as a female in a society that has objectified them as objects for pretty much ever. While there is increasingly awareness of such things and even reverse situations becoming more common, the message to most women remains "look sexy or else life won't be right for you" and at the same time "you were asking for it looking sexy". I know those are broad generalities but they are real. I also don't know why any man would argue with a woman about how she feels about this issue - particularly when you have not a clue if she has been a victim of sexual abuse or close to someone who has been. Not saying you have done that but some of the posts in this thread come across as not listening to people who clearly identify themselves as women. Men don't get to tell women what they should be thinking on this issue - sorry, it is far too soon for that and likely never will be the time when it is right. Go ahead, semantically shred this too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Alflives said: So how is that any different than 50 years ago? The suggestion was that the new (younger) generation doesn't exploit women, especially for their appearance. I’ll ask again: 17 minutes ago, Monty said: Women choosing to be in pageants and advertising/modeling (a profession) is exploiting? So what you’re saying is women being in a profession is a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Anyway, I’m out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Just now, Monty said: I’ll ask again: Are these pageants, billboards, TV, and magazine adds not misrepresenting the female body, or what is considered to be ideal? The Beauty Pageants pick winners, who represent what the image of beauty is supposed to be. Then billions of dollars are spent by women to try and look a certain way, or close to that way. How is that not exploiting women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 50 minutes ago, Alflives said: there are no longer any "Beauty" Pageants? Magazines, Billboards, and TV commercials don't place emphasis on a woman's appearance to attract customers' attention? Not just to you, but for everyone in this thread... Why is it wrong to look at an attractive person (man or woman) and have lustful thoughts? Procreation is the driving force behind our species, the reason we've survived this long and been able to do so much. Why is it wrong when attractive people use their natural state of being with a free choice to make a living? Should smart people not take jobs that require a higher degree of thinking, or else they are being exploited? Should physically superior people not become professional athletes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dral Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Alflives said: Are these pageants, billboards, TV, and magazine adds not misrepresenting the female body, or what is considered to be ideal? The Beauty Pageants pick winners, who represent what the image of beauty is supposed to be. Then billions of dollars are spent by women to try and look a certain way, or close to that way. How is that not exploiting women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dral said: Not just to you, but for everyone in this thread... Why is it wrong to look at an attractive person (man or woman) and have lustful thoughts? Procreation is the driving force behind our species, the reason we've survived this long and been able to do so much. Why is it wrong when attractive people use their natural state of being with a free choice to make a living? Should smart people not take jobs that require a higher degree of thinking, or else they are being exploited? Should physically superior people not become professional athletes? Sure people should, in a free society, have choice of jobs. My point was that the younger generation is not different than my (older) generation, when it comes to it's views of women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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