Harvey Weinstein Scandal Leads to Me Too Movement

[Monty]

18 minutes ago, Monty said:

Anyway, I’m out.

Except to respond to this. It’s the polite thing to do  

 

17 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Are these pageants, billboards, TV, and magazine adds not misrepresenting the female body, or what is considered to be ideal?  The Beauty Pageants pick winners, who represent what the image of beauty is supposed to be.  Then billions of dollars are spent by women to try and look a certain way, or close to that way.  How is that not exploiting women?  

So women choosing to do that and then them continuing to promote items based on “their appearance” is therefore promoting rape and sexual assault? So, the problem is women in the industry and then the other women who subsequently purchase items from those women in ads?

 

So, women are promoting rape and sexual assault?

 

Now I’m out. Because my above questions are obviously rhetorical.

 

EDIT:

Actually no, I’m adding this because my wife just piped up on this. 

 

“So what you’re saying is that women can’t be attractive? And that only women who dress attractive are ‘worth assaulting’ and those that dress frumpy aren’t? So we should all dress in burkas, and then there will be no more rape or sexual assault? That is just another form of victim blaming and not focusing on the issue, which is ensuring that men and women are held accountable to do their part.”

[Dral]

Just now, Alflives said:

Sure people should, in a free society, have choice of jobs.  My point was that the younger generation is not different than my (older) generation, when it comes to it's views of women.  

It is VERY different Alf... or you're not as old as you pretend to be...

[Dral]

9 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Because then the message can lead to tacit approval at the worst and at a minimum indifference to actions that some may find as "boys being boys".   When this discussion starts to erode the key messages through arguing semantics, adding in "well, some men get raped too" and similar it is essentially a form of minimizing the key message.   

 

The gender DOES matter in that unless you are a truly unique male, you are not able to know what it is like to live as a female in a society that has objectified them as objects for pretty much ever.   While there is increasingly awareness of such things and even reverse situations becoming more common, the message to most women remains "look sexy or else life won't be right for you" and at the same time "you were asking for it looking sexy".    I know those are broad generalities but they are real.   

 

I also don't know why any man would argue with a woman about how she feels about this issue - particularly when you have not a clue if she has been a victim of sexual abuse or close to someone who has been.   Not saying you have done that but some of the posts in this thread come across as not listening to people who clearly identify themselves as women.  Men don't get to tell women what they should be thinking on this issue - sorry, it is far too soon for that and likely never will be the time when it is right.   

 

Go ahead, semantically shred this too.   

 

Firstly, my biggest problem with the term rape culture is that it does more harm to real victims, then anything to help them.

 

My point before was that the gender of the person talking shouldn't matter, the message should matter... as soon as you say "men should not tell women their ideas are wrong" (or something along those lines) you are immediately making a judgement that women are weaker then men and need protection from ideas that are different from their own. You're feelings on the matter are your own, but if someone has a perspective that is wrong, and there are good arguments against it, data to back it up, then yes - absolutely it should be questioned... and even if you don't have any of that, it should STILL be questioned, because if an idea can't stand up to criticism, it's not a very good idea.... and women do NOT need protection from ideas that they don't agree with... they are not delicate, innocent flowers that need protection

 

You are entitled to your feelings, but feelings are almost never indicative of reality... I don't particularly care how you feel about something, but to use that to justify an argument on whats happening in the real world is wrong...

 

 

I really don't mean this as an insult, so please don't take it that way... but your current attitude makes you much more of a sexist then mine does. I, at least, have enough respect for the men and women in this thread to treat them equally and not give anyone any special treatment based on their gender.

[Dral]

23 minutes ago, Monty said:

Except to respond to this. It’s the polite thing to do  

 

So women choosing to do that and then them continuing to promote items based on “their appearance” is therefore promoting rape and sexual assault? So, the problem is women in the industry and then the other women who subsequently purchase items from those women in ads?

 

So, women are promoting rape and sexual assault?

 

Now I’m out. Because my above questions are obviously rhetorical.

 

EDIT:

Actually no, I’m adding this because my wife just piped up on this. 

 

“So what you’re saying is that women can’t be attractive? And that only women who dress attractive are ‘worth assaulting’ and those that dress frumpy aren’t? So we should all dress in burkas, and then there will be no more rape or sexual assault? That is just another form of victim blaming and not focusing on the issue, which is ensuring that men and women are held accountable to do their part.”

 

Lol - the irony right...

 

"You shouldn't be a model because that's exploitation!"

 

This is still men telling women what they should or should not do in order to protect them... Your wife sounds pretty smart

 

 

 

And yeah, I hate to break it to some of you... but most women want to be attractive and desirable... but guess what, thats not a quality that women have a patent on, most men do as well

[Monty]

36 minutes ago, Dral said:

"You shouldn't be a model because that's exploitation!"

 

This is still men telling women what they should or should not do in order to protect them... Your wife sounds pretty smart

You know the saying, “Marrying up?” Well, that’s the case both in looks and “the smarts”. She had her work cut out for her when we married 14 years ago. I just managed to catch her on the rebound. That’s all “the game” I had going for me.

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Dral said:

It is VERY different Alf... or you're not as old as you pretend to be...

How is it different?  We still see women trying to make themselves into the images portrayed in the media, don’t we?  

[Alflives]

1 hour ago, Monty said:

Except to respond to this. It’s the polite thing to do  

 

So women choosing to do that and then them continuing to promote items based on “their appearance” is therefore promoting rape and sexual assault? So, the problem is women in the industry and then the other women who subsequently purchase items from those women in ads?

 

So, women are promoting rape and sexual assault?

 

Now I’m out. Because my above questions are obviously rhetorical.

 

EDIT:

Actually no, I’m adding this because my wife just piped up on this. 

 

“So what you’re saying is that women can’t be attractive? And that only women who dress attractive are ‘worth assaulting’ and those that dress frumpy aren’t? So we should all dress in burkas, and then there will be no more rape or sexual assault? That is just another form of victim blaming and not focusing on the issue, which is ensuring that men and women are held accountable to do their part.”

How do you get “rape culture” from a woman spending money to look a certain way?  I’m only commenting on my belief that society views women now, just the same as when I was young (60’s - 70’s). 

 

Try reading “My Body Is My Own Business” by Saltan Yusifali (I think that’s her name?). 

[Alflives]

54 minutes ago, Dral said:

 

Lol - the irony right...

 

"You shouldn't be a model because that's exploitation!"

 

This is still men telling women what they should or should not do in order to protect them... Your wife sounds pretty smart

 

 

 

And yeah, I hate to break it to some of you... but most women want to be attractive and desirable... but guess what, thats not a quality that women have a patent on, most men do as well

That makes sense now, just as it did 50 years ago.  My point is that there is no difference over these generations on the objectifying of women, while you say there is.  Please explain the change. 

[riffraff]

Is ice hockey part of Canadian culture?...............

[Dral]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

That makes sense now, just as it did 50 years ago.  My point is that there is no difference over these generations on the objectifying of women, while you say there is.  Please explain the change. 

 

Men aren't responsible for the objectification of women today

[Alflives]

Just now, Dral said:

 

Men aren't responsible for the objectification of women today

It’s not, in my view, a man or a woman thing; it’s a social thing.  Women (much more so than men) spend billions on attempting to look a certain way, which is shaped through the lens of the media.  Whether it’s the Twiggy thin look of the 70’s or the the fuller figured look of the newest generation (I’m only guessing on this new look) it’s a distorted view of reality.  From this media appearance of beauty, we all shape our views - men and women.  Women, as a result, become objects of their appearance.  

[Rob_Zepp]

2 hours ago, Dral said:

 

Firstly, my biggest problem with the term rape culture is that it does more harm to real victims, then anything to help them.

 

My point before was that the gender of the person talking shouldn't matter, the message should matter... as soon as you say "men should not tell women their ideas are wrong" (or something along those lines) you are immediately making a judgement that women are weaker then men and need protection from ideas that are different from their own. You're feelings on the matter are your own, but if someone has a perspective that is wrong, and there are good arguments against it, data to back it up, then yes - absolutely it should be questioned... and even if you don't have any of that, it should STILL be questioned, because if an idea can't stand up to criticism, it's not a very good idea.... and women do NOT need protection from ideas that they don't agree with... they are not delicate, innocent flowers that need protection

 

You are entitled to your feelings, but feelings are almost never indicative of reality... I don't particularly care how you feel about something, but to use that to justify an argument on whats happening in the real world is wrong...

 

 

I really don't mean this as an insult, so please don't take it that way... but your current attitude makes you much more of a sexist then mine does. I, at least, have enough respect for the men and women in this thread to treat them equally and not give anyone any special treatment based on their gender.

Sorry dude, given how women in general have been treated for too many years there is a need for some special treatment based on gender for a long while....treatment that leads to true equality and a cessation to the abuse of power and the cultural norm that objectifies women.   

 

 

[Dral]

3 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Sorry dude, given how women in general have been treated for too many years there is a need for some special treatment based on gender for a long while....treatment that leads to true equality and a cessation to the abuse of power and the cultural norm that objectifies women.   

 

 

You can't have "special treatment based on gender" AND true equality... but sure, if you want to continue to treat women as being weaker go for it... like I said, I have enough respect for women to treat them the same as I would treat anyone else...

 

and wow that video is bad...

[Rob_Zepp]

1 minute ago, Dral said:

You can't have "special treatment based on gender" AND true equality... but sure, if you want to continue to treat women as being weaker go for it... like I said, I have enough respect for women to treat them the same as I would treat anyone else...

 

and wow that video is bad...

You and I are from different planets.   In my world, you cannot treat someone equally if you think that you are starting off at that point...the scale is so far tipped against women in so many areas of our society (this area for sure) that no one is saying treat them as 'weaker', what you are not hearing is accept that their view of the world is not the same as a mans and that a large portion of that view is dealing with crap most men never have to.   The fact that women on this board are telling you that you don't understand them is but one clue.

 

Man up dude.

[Dral]

Just now, Rob_Zepp said:

You and I are from different planets.   In my world, you cannot treat someone equally if you think that you are starting off at that point...the scale is so far tipped against women in so many areas of our society (this area for sure) that no one is saying treat them as 'weaker', what you are not hearing is accept that their view of the world is not the same as a mans and that a large portion of that view is dealing with crap most men never have to.   The fact that women on this board are telling you that you don't understand them is but one clue.

 

Man up dude.

The scales are tipped against women in almost no areas of western society, in fact the opposite is true... apparently, my planet relies on statistics, facts, logic and reasoning while yours relies on feelings, emotions and anecdotal evidence...

[Dral]

 

 

[Cerridwen]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You and I are from different planets.   In my world, you cannot treat someone equally if you think that you are starting off at that point...the scale is so far tipped against women in so many areas of our society (this area for sure) that no one is saying treat them as 'weaker', what you are not hearing is accept that their view of the world is not the same as a mans and that a large portion of that view is dealing with crap most men never have to.   The fact that women on this board are telling you that you don't understand them is but one clue.

 

Man up dude.

Thank you for this. Words from a truly enlightened man.

[Psylocke]

21 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Have I been drugged and taken advantage of by a girl. Yep. Have I had sexual comments made to me at my work place? Yep. Have I had unwanted girls grab my junk? Yep multiple times. Rape isn’t a women only experience. Stating that I’m a man doesn’t make me less knowledgeable on the issue. It’s simply a cop out to not wanting to have a discussion. 

 

16 hours ago, Dral said:

It's not all men... and it's not even MOST men, it's a tiny tiny few... and some of us are not happy when some people make it seem like its most men... if rape is such an ugly horrible thing, how do you think it feels when people insinuate you're the problem when you actually agree it is horrible? These are some of our concerns that a few people (not you, I actually enjoy having a conversation with you) want to dismiss out right as wrong or irrelevant.

 

 

If all you want is to be listened too, then fine... but if you want a solution, or at least people to attempt a solution, or to try and punish those responsible, then you're going to need more...

 

Rapists should absolutely go to jail and maybe even more, but the allegation of rape should not be sufficient to send someone to jail and destroy their life.... every person has the right to a fair trial and a lawyer who will do their best to defend you, and when you have a large number of false allegations (maybe we should dig up the Columbia University mattress girl thread) then it is absolutely necessary to bring up things about an alleged victims past to show credibility. Nobody wants to live in a society where rape is acceptable, and rapists go free, but I REALLY REALLY don't want to live in a society where just the accusation is enough to put someone in jail, and anyone who questions an accuser is deemed just as bad as a rapist.

 

 

 

The term "Rape Culture" is harmful and damages your concerns as well... it helps promote and spread the idea that things that aren't rape, actually are.... and it empowers people to make false allegations (like the Columbia mattress girl)... and these things are INCREDIBLY damaging to real rape victims... you should be angry at people who use the term rape culture, and people who make false accusations and people who promote false statistics and ideas about whats really going on because all these things make it that much more difficult for real victims to come forward.

 

And guess what, we ALL want real victims to come forward, and real rapists to be punished, no matter who they are.

1. I never said it was a women-only experience. I have mentioned in previous posts that women are just as capable of assault and harassment. In fact, I have dated 2 men who were victims. 

 

2. I never said that only men nor all men are the problem (although some misunderstood my previous posts as such). I've even given an example of a woman that was part of the problem - Mayim Bialik and her victim-blaming op-ed. And unfortunately, there are many more women who share the sentiment that victims of assault/harassment "asked for it".

 

3. Like I've mentioned before, we don't have to call it "rape culture"; however, there is a problem that needs to be addressed and, hopefully, fixed. 

 

4. When I do give examples of experiences, I can only give examples from my life as a woman; therefore, they are mostly examples of men who perpetuate the problem. But that in no way means that I believe that only men or that all men are monsters.

 

5. I do agree with the bolded, and, unfortunately, don't have an answer for how we can ensure that innocent men and women don't get falsely imprisoned. But I think the first step is changing the way we view what is considered assault/harassment, and by teaching the importance of consent. 

 

6. I'm getting pretty tired of this back and forth, so I think I'm going to leave this thread (at least for a short while). 

 

Edit: I forgot to add earlier that, while there are some stats on sexual assault/harassment, it does not tell the full story as not all cases get reported. 

[Scottish⑦Canuck]

21 hours ago, Dral said:

The scales are tipped against women in almost no areas of western society, in fact the opposite is true... apparently, my planet relies on statistics, facts, logic and reasoning while yours relies on feelings, emotions and anecdotal evidence...

The scales are tipped against women in no areas of society? Without even taking objectification and sexual assault into account, there's the gender pay gap for a start. That's one example and that evidence is readily available through statistics. It may be closing in some countries but it's still a significant issue and true equality in the workplace still doesn't exist. Women are paid 80% of what a man is for doing the same job. (EDIT: Simplified, fair enough).

 

I don't like the term "rape culture". It's an extreme term that implies that sexual assault and rape are normalized when they clearly aren't. There is, however, an objectification culture and I've witnessed it myself in the way that teens and young adults in particular speak about women. I can't even count how many times I've witnessed a man grinding upon clearly uncomfortable young women in clubs, because they feel that they're entitled to do so. These sort of things are recognised but just dismissed as "lad culture" or "locker room talk" like it's nothing. It's prevalent in mainstream media as well. Music, movies, magazines. All normalizing the objectification of women. That's a cultural problem that needs to be addressed if progress is ever going to be made. It's 4.50am so I won't go into victim blaming today but there's plenty that can be said about that as well. Are men objectified too? Yes, and that's a problem in itself. I actually think it's become more common in recent years and that isn't acceptable either.

 

I see a lot of men take things like this personally, including yourself, when the vast majority of time nobody is blaming every man or accusing you as an individual of thinking that way. They're just acknowledging that a culture does exist. 

 

[smokes]

The best thing for men to do in these situation is to be asexual in the workplace. I fully support women in fighting against sexual harassment because it is wrong. But at the same time, I have been on the other side of the coin where women have used their sexuality to lure in clients for the company or to give themselves an advantage over their male counterparts in receiving credit or getting promotions and raises. I have been to job interviews where women purposely arrange their bras because they know what the interviewer will be focused on. Things like this are just as wrong as harassment. This is not a one gender at fault problem.