[Speculation/Rumor] Canucks on the twins future and Gudbranson

[rekker]

8 minutes ago, oldnews said:

the biggest knock on Gudbranson is his puck moving.   I've really liked that aspect of his game recently.   It looks evident that he's getting more comfortable and confident here, and he's always been capable of excellent first passes.   I think there was a stretch where he wasn't particularly healthy, and the team was also depleted, particularly down the middle = big impact on both support low in the zone and zone exits.  Gudbranson is sometimes in circumstances to transition the puck - in others he's simply ending possession and clearing the zone - to enable (line/pairing changes or relieve pressure, which as a shutdown D is a principle responsibility of his) - so I think sometimes peope go micro and miss the nuances.   Regardless, I think his puck moving is improving and I'd point to a player like Sbisa whose trajectory in that sense was quite impressive in the end.

I think it's a no brainer to re-sign him - (and possibly even Sbisa in the summer lol) if they move a D this deadline.

I'd really enjoy a Luca Erik shutdown pairing (if for no other reason than the flake 'analytic' uproar) - in the interim to the Tryamkin Gudbranson reign of terror.

I've been saying bring back Luca for awhile now. He was underrated here. That and if Seattle enters the leugue we can expose him. Lol. But seriously. He's playing some good hockey. 

[goblix]

8 hours ago, oldnews said:

no need to 'hide' Gudbranson

you don't realize how Green utilizes him if you believe he needs to be 'hidden'.

 

Martin on the other hand is what is disappearing out of the NHL - the 5/6 minute fourth liner

the Canucks don't need to eat that cap dump, particularly for a lowball.

 

just re-sign Gudranson

 

I'm not a fan of Martin and I already said we don't even have to use him. Simply tuck him away in the AHL and eat his cap for 2 years while we have a bunch of ELC contracts and we should not be buyers in the UFA market anyways so the cap is a commodity we should be using for future assets. So ya I'm all for it if we can upgrade to a 1rst from a 2nd.

 

That first in this draft could become a pretty good defensive prospect pick up and in my opinion Guddy doesn't hit as hard, moves slower and he's just overall not as ferocious here. He's not the same player like he was in Florida

 

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

the biggest knock on Gudbranson is his puck moving.   I've really liked that aspect of his game recently.   It looks evident that he's getting more comfortable and confident here, and he's always been capable of excellent first passes.   I think there was a stretch where he wasn't particularly healthy, and the team was also depleted, particularly down the middle = big impact on both support low in the zone and zone exits.  Gudbranson is sometimes in circumstances to transition the puck - in others he's simply ending possession and clearing the zone - to enable (line/pairing changes or relieve pressure, which as a shutdown D is a principle responsibility of his) - so I think sometimes peope go micro and miss the nuances.   Regardless, I think his puck moving is improving and I'd point to a player like Sbisa whose trajectory in that sense was quite impressive in the end.

I think it's a no brainer to re-sign him - (and possibly even Sbisa in the summer lol) if they move a D this deadline.

I'd really enjoy a Luca Erik shutdown pairing - in the interim to the Tryamkin Gudbranson reign of terror.

Gudbranson has been better with looking out for outlet passes rather than knocking it off the glass or flipping it up in the air to the opponents end (which i agree is alright but nice to see him utilize the outlet pass more). That said I find his passing is typically atrocious, It's typically too hard and not clean where the receiver has trouble handling it.

I just find that he is far too passive and doesn't use his body enough which is his main asset.

 

couple of examples of last game:

2:23 -- had an opportunity to hit the guy at the blueline and behind the net he skates right by the guy rather than body to separate the puck

6:37 -- soft play on the boards last man back you can't lose it there

 

I understand everyone makes mistakes even defensive superstars but the one thing I expect and this is the same with Jake Virtanen and Archibald now is that if you have a big tough body, you don't have to plaster the guy but use it to at least separate player from puck. Even if its to box a player out and clear the puck from the area... Skating by the guy or doing a half-hearted stick check is not good look.

 

Either way my point is apart from the player's performance he is simply not worth a contract in the mold of 4m+ for 5-6 years which is what he'd want.

If he wants to resign for the same amount he's making now for 2 years then sure I'm fine with that but overall if we can get future assets, an unconditional 1rst or a 2nd at that then truly that seems like more of a no-brainer to me.

[oldnews]

3 minutes ago, goblix said:

I'm not a fan of Martin and I already said we don't even have to use him. Simply tuck him away in the AHL and eat his cap for 2 years while we have a bunch of ELC contracts and we should not be buyers in the UFA market anyways so the cap is a commodity we should be using for future assets. So ya I'm all for it if we can upgrade to a 1rst from a 2nd.

 

That first in this draft could become a pretty good defensive prospect pick up and in my opinion Guddy doesn't hit as hard, moves slower and he's just overall not as ferocious here. He's not the same player like he was in Florida

 

Gudbranson has been better with looking out for outlet passes rather than knocking it off the glass or flipping it up in the air to the opponents end (which i agree is alright but nice to see him utilize the outlet pass more). That said I find his passing is typically atrocious, It's typically too hard and not clean where the receiver has trouble handling it.

I just find that he is far too passive and doesn't use his body enough which is his main asset.

 

couple of examples of last game:

2:23 -- had an opportunity to hit the guy at the blueline and behind the net he skates right by the guy rather than body to separate the puck

6:37 -- soft play on the boards last man back you can't lose it there

 

I understand everyone makes mistakes even defensive superstars but the one thing I expect and this is the same with Jake Virtanen and Archibald now is that if you have a big tough body, you don't have to plaster the guy but use it to at least separate player from puck. Even if its to box a player out and clear the puck from the area... Skating by the guy or doing a half-hearted stick check is not good look.

 

Either way my point is apart from the player's performance he is simply not worth a contract in the mold of 4m+ for 5-6 years which is what he'd want.

If he wants to resign for the same amount he's making now for 2 years then sure I'm fine with that but overall if we can get future assets, an unconditional 1rst or a 2nd at that then truly that seems like more of a no-brainer to me.

pass on the Martin (self-inflicted) lowball and cap dump.  no need for it.

 

also pass on the micro-situational gazing (sorry, no time for it)  that is precisely what misleads people to undervaluing any player.

 

Gudbranson is the same player - that is dealing with wrist, back injuries and doing the right thing imo - it's in the best interests of all parties that he's healthy - taking less risks to close out this transition season is highly reasonable.   I like his play since returning - his principle value is not as a face-puncher in any event - his value runs a lot deeper than simply being "ferocious".

 

 

[rekker]

All things equal. Guds is way more valuable to a team than Martin. 

[goblix]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

pass on the Martin (self-inflicted) lowball and cap dump.  no need for it.

 

also pass on the micro-situational gazing (sorry, no time for it)  that is precisely what misleads people to undervaluing any player.

 

Gudbranson is the same player - that is dealing with wrist, back injuries and doing the right thing imo - it's in the best interests of all parties that he's healthy - taking less risks to close out this transition season is highly reasonable.   I like his play since returning - his principle value is not as a face-puncher in any event - his value runs a lot deeper than simply being "ferocious".

An injured subpar player is still a subpar player.. His play has not warranted any kind of top 4 contract with term and that is the point i'm willing to die on.

 

I never did say he had to fight and terms like "tough, mean and ferocious" are not distinct to fighters. I call the Sedins tough because they are willing to play on the boards and they use their body's well to box out players and make plays with the puck. Plays like that are what big body players can do with ease and not worry about injuries and I don't see enough of it with Guddy and it frustrates me to no end when any player does a halfhearted stick check and a skate by.

 

3 minutes ago, rekker said:

All things equal. Guds is way more valuable to a team than Martin. 

no-one is arguing that.. My point is that futures on this team is more valuable than both Martin and Guds put together.

[rekker]

13 minutes ago, goblix said:

An injured subpar player is still a subpar player.. His play has not warranted any kind of top 4 contract with term and that is the point i'm willing to die on.

 

I never did say he had to fight and terms like "tough, mean and ferocious" are not distinct to fighters. I call the Sedins tough because they are willing to play on the boards and they use their body's well to box out players and make plays with the puck. Plays like that are what big body players can do with ease and not worry about injuries and I don't see enough of it with Guddy and it frustrates me to no end when any player does a halfhearted stick check and a skate by.

 

no-one is arguing that.. My point is that futures on this team is more valuable than both Martin and Guds put 

[rekker]

Gotcha. To me it all depends what Guds wants for dollars. He is not a permanent top four. Not yet. He may be at some point. If I ignore the dollar side I would rather have Guds than a second round pick. 

[goblix]

Just now, rekker said:

Gotcha. To me it all depends what Guds wants for dollars. He is not a permanent top four. Not yet. He may be at some point. If I ignore the dollar side I would rather have Guds than a second round pick. 

Ignoring term and dollars I can understand that. I'd probably want the 2nd anyways personally  

 

But yeah as you said, he is not a permanent top 4 yet... And whilst he may become one but you can't pay him like it when he hasn't shown it in the 3 years here.

[oldnews]

31 minutes ago, goblix said:

 he hasn't shown it in the 3 years here.

two years - 67 games - and he has shown plenty.

[oldnews]

43 minutes ago, rekker said:

Gotcha. To me it all depends what Guds wants for dollars. He is not a permanent top four. Not yet. He may be at some point. If I ignore the dollar side I would rather have Guds than a second round pick. 

this is meaningless.

'top 4' / 'bottom pairing' cookie cutter doesn't  explain roles when it comes to many defensemen.

A shutdown 'top 4' - a penalty kill 'top 4' - but not an offensive/two way/powerplay 'top 4.' 

It's irrelevent - attempts to categorize as opposed to analyze - and doesn't look at how he's actually deployed -  to what extent - in what situations.

 

[rekker]

Just now, oldnews said:

this is meaningless.

'top 4' / 'bottom pairing' cookie cutter doesn't  explain roles when it comes to many defensemen.

A shutdown 'top 4' - a penalty kill 'top 4' - but not an offensive/two way/powerplay 'top 4.' 

It's irrelevent - attempts to categorize as opposed to analyze - and doesn't look at how he's actually deployed -  to what extent - in what situations.

 

I get it as Guds is a very good PK player. To me top 2 4 6 is more about ice time. IE. Edler munches up a pile of tough minutes. Top two on this team. 

[oldnews]

31 minutes ago, rekker said:

I get it as Guds is a very good PK player. To me top 2 4 6 is more about ice time. IE. Edler munches up a pile of tough minutes. Top two on this team. 

Edler being a 'top2'  here isn't really the question - nor is Tanev's role.

Beyond that it isn't clear to many people.

When MDZ and Gudbranson are paired together - that is clearly the "second pairing" - and it's pretty easy to make the case that they are 3/4 on this team - as is patently obvious when it comes time to scratch players.   Hutton, Biega, Pouliot... clearly the 'bottom pairing' D on this team.

However it gets more complicated when you split up MDZ and Gudbranson to pair them with younger D.    Stecher sometimes plays with Edler - doesn't make him 'top pair'.   Hutton, Pouliot likewise - and additionally there are the types of minutes to fill - they play a role in ice-time.

I think it's vital to have Gudbranson complementing Tanev and lightening the load he has to otherwise play - he's a "top 4" shutdown and penalty killing defenseman - looking at overall ice-time alone doesn't really indicate the role or value of a player or even where they actually are on the depth chart.

[rekker]

5 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Edler being a 'top2' two here isn't really the question - nor is Tanev's role.

Beyond that it isn't clear to many people.

When MDZ and Gudbranson are paired together - that is clearly the "second pairing" - and it's pretty easy to make the case that they are 3/4 on this team - as is patently obvious when it comes time to scratch players.   Hutton, Biega, Pouliot... clearly the 'bottom pairing' D on this team.

However it gets more complicated when you split up MDZ and Gudbranson to pair them with younger D.    Stecher sometimes plays with Edler - doesn't make him 'top pair'.   Hutton, Pouliot likewise - and additionally there are the types of minutes to fill - they play a role in ice-time.

I think it's vital to have Gudbranson complementing Tanev and lightening the load he has to otherwise play - he's a "top 4" shutdown and penalty killing defenseman - looking at overall ice-time alone doesn't really indicate the role or value of a player or even where they actually are on the depth chart.

For sure minutes matter in relation to your role on the team. IE special teams add to you minutes. I agree Guds adds more than minutes. Toughness is a skill when used to clear the net or throw a check. I can recall Guds hitting Point hard the other night. Point wasn't the same rest of the shift. Guds may get more minutes on a night we play a big physical team. Guds would get big minutes on a night we PK a lot. Where I lose Guds as a true top four is he has zero offence. Zero. Tanev has zero but makes up for it by being a top shutdown guy in the leugue. Guds just isn't. He struggles in top four minutes in ice time against fast teams. Which many teams are now.

[oldnews]

6 minutes ago, rekker said:

For sure minutes matter in relation to your role on the team. IE special teams add to you minutes. I agree Guds adds more than minutes. Toughness is a skill when used to clear the net or throw a check. I can recall Guds hitting Point hard the other night. Point wasn't the same rest of the shift. Guds may get more minutes on a night we play a big physical team. Guds would get big minutes on a night we PK a lot. Where I lose Guds as a true top four is he has zero offence. Zero. Tanev has zero but makes up for it by being a top shutdown guy in the leugue. Guds just isn't. He struggles in top four minutes in ice time against fast teams. Which many teams are now.

that's your story - which I think you are overselling - do you have anything (ie evidence/objective outcomes) to qualify it?

I say it's equally the case that smaller, skilled forwards avoid going into the corners with him - avoid the hard areas in general - I've seen lots of instances of quick, small, skilled forwards abandoning the puck / avoiding puck battles because Gudbranson makes players pay for engaging.

[rekker]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

that's your story - which I think you are overselling - do you have anything (ie evidence/objective outcomes) to qualify it?

I say it's equally the case that smaller, skilled forwards avoid going into the corners with him - avoid the hard areas in general - I've seen lots of instances of quick, small, skilled forwards abandoning the puck / avoiding puck battles because Gudbranson makes players pay for engaging.

Like how Point wasn't the same after the hit. I like that in Guds. More and more though a modern dman is to be quick on his edges, quick to react and angle off players. Not hit but angle off and continue on playing. This is not the definition of Guds. His style is becoming less and less the norm in the NHL. Still a needed asset. But not like it was years ago.

[DeNiro]

1 minute ago, rekker said:

Like how Point wasn't the same after the hit. I like that in Guds. More and more though a modern dman is to be quick on his edges, quick to react and angle off players. Not hit but angle off and continue on playing. This is not the definition of Guds. His style is becoming less and less the norm in the NHL. Still a needed asset. But not like it was years ago.

The game slows down and there's alot less space as teams tighten up in the playoffs. This is where Gudbranson is at his best.

 

I'd still like to see us re-sign him for the right price.

[rekker]

3 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

The game slows down and there's alot less space as teams tighten up in the playoffs. This is where Gudbranson is at his best.

 

I'd still like to see us re-sign him for the right price.

Me too. He has a presence and skill set that is needed on every team. And contrary to what many think I feel he still has some upside as a player.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, rekker said:

Me too. He has a presence and skill set that is needed on every team. And contrary to what many think I feel he still has some upside as a player.

He plays best when paired with a top notch puck mover/ skater dman.  Guddy might be the ideal partnership with Juiolevi.  I hope we sign Guddy.

[rekker]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

He plays best when paired with a top notch puck mover/ skater dman.  Guddy might be the ideal partnership with Juiolevi.  I hope we sign Guddy.

Yes. I have thought that for awhile as well.  

 

[Alflives]

31 minutes ago, rekker said:

Like how Point wasn't the same after the hit. I like that in Guds. More and more though a modern dman is to be quick on his edges, quick to react and angle off players. Not hit but angle off and continue on playing. This is not the definition of Guds. His style is becoming less and less the norm in the NHL. Still a needed asset. But not like it was years ago.

In the old six team league, you described exactly how the d played.  They stayed at home mostly, but there were some guys (Doug Harvey) who carried the puck.  Mostly the d stayed home, fought to get the puck, and then quickly moved it up the ice.  I think Guddy can do the basic part of getting the puck, and moving it quickly.  He doesn’t need to skate with it.